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Judging question?

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Judging question?

Old 08-09-2005, 12:55 PM
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Sharpy01
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Default Judging question?

I'll ask Chad as he would appear to have the most uptodate data.

Q. How "fair" do you consider the judging at the events you attend? By that, do you and other flyers at the pattern meets feel that you finished where you should have. I realize that much subjectivity goes into the judging, but is there also the usual bias similar to figure skating where many times it doesn't really matter how you did, but seems more based on past performance and reputation? Due you have to "earn your dues" before you get respect on the score board?

A followup question would also be, "Is the judging between NorthAmerica and FAI stuff differ when it comes to fairness?"

I ask because one of the few pattern flyers from our zone began complaining about judging, in that he felt guys with a "name" would win events or place high when it wasn't deserved and he was naturally unhappy about it. I also recall reading a few years back when Hanno Prettner was winning all the time and the Worlds were held in his home country. The US complained that Hyde should have won based on actual flying and the cited some other seemingly nasty stuff when their team was trying to find a practice field (in a country with precious little flat space) so they went to Prettner's private or club field, but were essentially run off.

What's your experience? Has it changed?
Old 08-09-2005, 03:11 PM
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can773
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Default RE: Judging question?

How "fair" do you consider the judging at the events you attend?
Well as a competitor my answer is immediately biased I think there are few if any intentional "mis-scorings" to place one person above the other....certainly those who have the "halo" as we like to call it will get the benefit of the doubt more regularily than a newcomer.....I have been on both ends of this (with and without the halo)....its part of the teritory of competing in judged events. If the judges were perfect you would receive the exact same score from every judge and would only need a single judge....that is why we use multiple judges, in effect to "average" out those discrepancies.

Overall I dont think it affects the results, specific rounds yes, but thats why we have multiple rounds so that no single round can earn you a top position.....you fly against different judges each round.

"Is the judging between NorthAmerica and FAI stuff differ when it comes to fairness?"
No the judging criteria is identical....we have went to great lengths to precisely dictate specific downgrades for specific mistakes and remove the "impression" judging of the past. It works very well. A glance through the rulebook will show more or less exactly how this works....its relatively simple and once applied is much easier to give fair scores (usually lower than an impression judge would give) and leaves little question as to what score you should have. There is still room for "presentation" of around 2 pts out of 10.....obviously if you are not flying as gracefully and paced as someone else you should not be beating him regardless of how precise you fly....this is a criteria to our flying and is hugely subjective. Impressing the judges is part of the game and it starts the moment you walk up to the flight station.

At large events like the WC a bit of software known as TBL (taken from full scale aerobatics) is used to remove judge bias, rank judges (yes they are scored like we are) and correct scores that fall outside the norm when compared to other judges on that panel. It works very well and has more or less removed the possibility of unfair judging at the WC. Currently Canada's judge is ranked #1 worldwide for F3A. Obviously the judges at the WC are considered "professional" by all accounts and will be more accurate in their methods than at a local contest....but the criteria is the same for all the events.

I ask because one of the few pattern flyers from our zone began complaining about judging
What else is new? Everyone complains about judging....I do it myself....I know people have complained about my judging....c'est la vie. As a pilot you are extremely tunnel visioned on what you are doing, there are lots of things you dont and cant see that an observer can. I can almost guarantee that the scores you receive from a judge are more reflective of what you are flying than what you think you are flying.....

The US complained that Hyde should have won
Ahhhh now that is funny.....big surprise. You need to be in the pattern game a long time and know the players to understand the underlying humor in this

in that he felt guys with a "name" would win events or place high when it wasn't deserved and he was naturally unhappy about it.
Sounds like the fellow you know has not been to a contest in a long time.....as with anything pattern has evolved a lot that includes the judging. Either that or his scores were reflective of his flying and he was not that happy with it Its a tough thing to have someone tell you your flying sucks when you are trying your hardest.....I have seen people almost lose it emotionally after some difficult critiquing of their flying. I have known many guys who figured they are better than they are and always suffered huge disappointment when the scores did not reflect their hopes......from a sports pshycology viewpoint the worst thing you can do is put yourself on a pedestal that you cannot acheive as your experience from that point will always be negative. When you forget how you are placing and start competing against yourself is when the victories are acheived.


Anyways, pattern is judged by humans.....until humans are perfect specimens their will always be questions/issues surrounding judging and it will always be used as a scapegoat for poor flying LOL. This is no different in IMAC, or any other judged events.

Old 08-09-2005, 03:32 PM
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can773
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Default RE: Judging question?

Ok here is one for you

This year in Muncie on my third round (I think) I received from 3 judges a

9 - 9 - 0

For a manuver that is centered in front of the pilot and consists of a 45 degree inverted climb with a 4 point roll (inverted entry inverted exit) to a level inverted exit at the top of the box (about 800' high).....

Now how can two judges see 9's (which is a typical score of mine on this manuver) and the other see a 0? Missing or not defining a point enough is worth 4-5 point downgrade not 0.....

This is a K-Factor 4 manuver...... 5 is the highest so it cost me a possible 36 raw points (this can be the difference between being first in a round and being 15th in the round).

I did protest the score and it was confirmed that the judge wrote a zero (sometimes scores get entered into the computer wrong and 9 is close to 0).....

Anyways, this little "problem" did cost me a 10th place finish as it was that close to myself and 10th.....

Thats the game, things like that do happen and you really cannot do anything about it except go put up a better flight the next time.


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