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The future of MAAC Nats

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The future of MAAC Nats

Old 08-15-2005, 07:50 AM
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kenair
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Default The future of MAAC Nats

Would you consider the MAAC 2005 Nats a success.
Does the Nats event merit MAAC money and head office resources when club sponsored events out perform the Nats yet receive no funding from MAAC. Did the Nats get representation from all the provinces.

This past weekend a local Fly-in event with no MAAC funding and ealing with with poor weather had over 70 registrants by Saturday with more to come on Sunday.

from the link at [link]http://www.maacnats.ca/[/link]

Due to lack of registrations, R/C Open Combat has been cancelled.

The following categories have also been cancelled:
R/C Helicopter
Sailplane
Electric
and off the can of RC at [link]http://www.rccanada.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?t=17087[/link] it would appear that scale and IMAC (scale aerobatics) has 20 to 25 guys per each discipline.

I support competition, but are the Nats the representation of MAAC, the way to promote model aviation.


What's your view? Has the Nats become a small regional event.




Old 08-15-2005, 08:47 AM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Please define outperform, in what way?

How are we to compare a local social fly-in with a national competition?

Are apples better than oranges because they are redder and easier to grow locally?

Should the British Open be cancelled in favour of the Edrie Classic (a family reunion that begins with a round of golf, in memory of my late Grandmother) as it attracts a greater number of participants?

Inquiring minds want to know....
Old 08-15-2005, 09:38 AM
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britbrat
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

I don't agree with Ken's anti-competition rants, however, the lack of participation indicates something problematic -- what is it?

Was there insufficient advance warning to the modelling fraternity to get prepared?

Were insufficient resources available (monetary, manpower, etc)?

Was there something lacking in the organization of the event (advertising, venue, local infrastructure, whatever)?

Is there a general decline in competition interest (Ken will like that one)?


I don't pretend to know the answers to any of those questions, but if low levels of apparent interest conbtinue, then I think that the problems (whatever they are) have to be fixed,or the "national" program dumped (which I think would be unfortunate).
Old 08-15-2005, 09:42 AM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Yes I would suggest that the Nats was a great success. The weather was cooperative and the atmosphere was exciting and friendly. I also met some new folks and learned a lot about competing in a scale event. I thought that it was well organized but needed some standard judging criteria. I had practiced some maneuvers only to find out that they were different from what the judges wanted to see.
I am new to this forum and have read a multitude of postings. I am surprised that our fellow hobbyists are bickering back and forth on issues that cause descent among our fellowship. It appears to me to be mainly over funding and disagreeing with others opinions. Every body is entitled to their own opinion, so I suggest we leave it at that and discuss positive issues to benefit of our hobby. Leave the decisions to those voted to make them and if we don't agree re-vote next time. It is my opinion, that if you are so against how the MAAC's money is being dispersed, then leave MAAC, fly without insurance and stop receiving the monthly Magazine. I feel that my dues pay for these privileges and are worth it. anything extra that is funded is a bonus to me and the hobby. If anyone feels a need to reply to this posting to bash me about my opinion, or to criticize my intelligence do not expect a response.
Old 08-15-2005, 10:14 AM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

sivlE,

Your sentiments appear to echo those of many others (my own included) I meet in this hobby.

I fail to understand why a select few seem to feel the need to squash competition and competitive events. But then again, as a parent, I fail to comprehend the advocacy groups who want to remove competition from schools in the thinking that losing is harmful to the development of a child's psyche. I for one feel that the development of the desire to compete, including the development of the ability to cope with losing ... without giving up, is a key lesson in development ... at all stages of life.

Back on topic. I continue to fail to see why a few here are attempting to spin the latest nationals as a failure? I was unable to attend due to work commitments but, I hear nothing but positive comments from those who attended.
Old 08-15-2005, 11:17 AM
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kenair
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Kenair is not anti competition, I whole heartly support competition, I think you are forming an opinion before............well what is else is new.

Its great idea for MAAC continue to focus on the Nats and the FAI.
Old 08-15-2005, 11:46 AM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Yes Jim, I totally agree with you on our societies views these days. If we had that same fear of losing in the past, T.E. wouldn't of even invented the lightbulb and would have given up after his first failure. I think that it has become fashionable to have a lifestyle that is abnormal.
What really gets me, is that society seems to accept these abnormalities and tries to justify them in the interest of political correctness.
Anyway I hope to see you at the NATS next year, as I have become hooked on the thrill of competition.
Old 08-15-2005, 11:51 AM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Once the competition bug bites, it hangs on. Welcome my friend, hope we do meet at a future Nats.[8D]
Old 08-15-2005, 03:58 PM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

I'll continue my Mantra:

Have fun, and I really don't care how you decide to have you fun in the hobby. Just don't demand/assume/expect everyone else to pay for your fun. If the Nats had 15 competitors and didn't loose any money, then bravo! I'm OK with it.

If It had 55 and lost thousands of our money, then I have a problem. The success, media and financial, depends on the organizers and sponsors...................not the title.

Regardless, here are some nic pics of the Gimli event;

http://www.sportrc.com/gimli.html
Old 08-15-2005, 04:18 PM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats


ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

I'll continue my Mantra:

Have fun, and I really don't care how you decide to have you fun in the hobby. Just don't demand/assume/expect everyone else to pay for your fun. If the Nats had 15 competitors and didn't loose any money, then bravo! I'm OK with it.

If It had 55 and lost thousands of our money, then I have a problem. The success, media and financial, depends on the organizers and sponsors...................not the title.


http://www.sportrc.com/gimli.html

Jim, I'm clearly a bit dim, but I'm sure that a smart guy like you can help. Please explain, without repeating the same-old, same-old thing, why & where Sharpy is wrong about this.

This is a serious request.
Old 08-15-2005, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

I'll take a kick at explaining why Mark is wrong (although I don't actually disagree with him)

Events like a Nationals carry with them a level of risk. A week of rain when the Nats were planned and you're out some money. What these events need is protection against the unforseen. Ultimately, this should be a fund that is built up over time, and generated from surplusses from financially viable events in the same area. BUT ... if we want to see events grow and prosper, we need to be able to offer financial protection to the organisers.
That said, that protection should come at the cost of a well prepared budget based on conservative if not pessimistic projections. There should be timelines for projection adjustments and budget re-working.
The big thing is that the board recognises and understands the potential losses if things fall apart. The Brandon Nats has long been held up as an expample of a failure, with the event costing the association over $20,000 ... The board was aware of the costs, for the most part, and knew they were spending the money ...

Where Mark had a problem was with events that ran unforseen and unmitigated losses. Mark has said, but I have no idea if it is true, that the 2005 Nats did not present a complete budget to the board ... I suspect this is where he has the biggest problem.
Old 08-15-2005, 04:58 PM
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britbrat
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

OK Keith, thanks for your take on the subject.

Do you know if there is a "participation factor" that is applied, wherein some value-for-$ things get examined? That seems to be a problem for both Ken & Marc.

Old 08-15-2005, 07:12 PM
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kenair
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Many, many model aviation events in Canada are growing and prospering for years without ever sucking on the MAAC milk bottle. They have taken risks too.

Is it because once one has the taste of free MAAC money, they are unable to wean themselves off it, are there any other event groups in MAAC besides Nats/FAI that are on MAACs doorstep asking for the memberships dollars.
Old 08-15-2005, 07:50 PM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Somebody somewhere always foots the bill. I think the Gimli event is going to grow and do well, however it likely would have remained only a dream if Gimli had not covered many costs. Would be interested to know what the costs were that were picked up by the town.

JH
Old 08-15-2005, 08:07 PM
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Sharpy01
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats


ORIGINAL: jhelps

Somebody somewhere always foots the bill. I think the Gimli event is going to grow and do well, however it likely would have remained only a dream if Gimli had not covered many costs. Would be interested to know what the costs were that were picked up by the town.

JH
Correct. However, the partership with Gimli and corporate sponsors such as Rogers Wireless, obviously can see a benefit to them in sponsoring the event.................or they would not. If it doesn't pay off for them, they will no longer sponsor the event in the future. Right now, things look good as the City has begun work on a permanent facility for the event at an old Air Force base within a multi-use facility, including a Drag Racing Track, a Off-road race track, control line circle, along with some other ideas designed to get people to their town on a regular basis.

It's a terrific example of partnership designed to benefit both sides. The Town kicks in a few thousand dollars for the event, which they apparently feel it worth the investment. The organizers have also been devising methods to raise money from the modellers and spectators to work towards making the event totally self-sufficient so no city money will be needed. Local service clubs earn some charity money through food-service and show up at the field with their fund-raising raffle items and sell their tickets to the participants and spectators..........winners all around.
Old 08-15-2005, 08:28 PM
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Sharpy01
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats


ORIGINAL: Morison

Mark has said, but I have no idea if it is true, that the 2005 Nats did not present a complete budget to the board ... I suspect this is where he has the biggest problem.
Actually, what I said was that the event was essentially approved and "seed" money was going to organizers BEFORE a proper budget was submitted/approved.

Participation I also don't care about. However, events that expect to recieve MAAC money to get the event going and potentially cover losses should have a budget designed around a minimum number of PAID participants by a deadline date that ensures financial "break even" point............or face cancellation while losses are minimum.

Fluff like event t-shirts and golf balls, paid photographers etc. are non-essentials and shouldn't be included in budget projections and shouldn't be funded by the membership because that is the stuff the sets you up for a loss if the weather tanks. THAT SHOULD have been a pretty blatant lesson learned from MAAC's recent history.

If a hosting club wants to add fluff to an event, they should be out hunting corporate sponsorship to get that coin. That way, if the fluff gamble turns a profit,(after MAAC's money is back in the can) the sponsoring clubs can keep the proceeds and their is no argument. Let's face it, it's easier to get a hand-out than it is to go hunting for sponsors.............

........in my humble opinion.
(Marc Sharpe's opinion, in no way reflects that current executive, board and other sharpe-hating members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada)

Old 08-15-2005, 09:58 PM
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jhelps
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Agree with the sponsored events and they probably do promote growth in the hobby. I still think there is a place for NATS, however not with member only funding.

Love to stay and chat, but am busy following the melt down on RCC over the scale event. You didn't even post there and your getting an honourable mention (well dishonourable actually .. but you get the point).

JH
Old 08-15-2005, 10:21 PM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

ORIGINAL: jhelps

Love to stay and chat, but am busy following the melt down on RCC over the scale event. You didn't even post there and your getting an honourable mention (well dishonourable actually .. but you get the point).

JH
LOL............ that's impossible as it is..... I..... that causes all the strife within and on RCcan and they don't allow me to play no more?.................at least not the real me

.........I hope I'm not becoming irrelevant?
Old 08-15-2005, 10:29 PM
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jhelps
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Irrelevent ... never, there is always something to blame you for. I understand that this years crappy Manitoba weather, the rising price of fuel, Iran continuing to refine uranium, the devels lake outfall, damaged tiles on the space shuttle and west nile virus are all because you promote responsible governance in MAAC.




By the way I got a reply from Linda today ... MAAC is incorporated federally by "letters patent"


JH
Old 08-15-2005, 11:56 PM
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Sharpy01
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

....how did you find out about the tiles?

Old 08-16-2005, 06:47 AM
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kenair
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

the maac nats scaled melt down, ha, good one, seen this happen a local contests too, which is good because if you are going to compete then be competetive. I SUPPORT COMPETITION.

First they chewed up Bransfeld before the Scale Worlds, then another comp group chewed up Morrison before the Glider Worlds and tried to get him booted off, now they are eating their own despite no involvement of Sharpy & Kenair, who will they blame now.

Thanks to the can of rc for promoting Nats Scale at [link]http://www.rccanada.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?t=17087[/link]

After the mid airs I've seen this year, I may get back into competition, most of the times you get a flight alone.

Old 08-16-2005, 07:27 AM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Sad. []
Old 08-16-2005, 08:35 AM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Yep, purdy sad. I see there was a weak attempt to spin the mess in my direction during the NATS meltdown thread. How can a toy airplane event of any type become so muddled in politics? Reading some of that junk, it's easy to see why organizers are shying away from hosting similar and it has zip to do with me. I was in Gimli with my family and a bunch of good-natured aeromodellers enjoying the escape from the stresses of the real world.

..........as opposed to;


Here we go again WHINNNN WHINNNN WHINNNNN!
Dennis what about your pal Tom seems to me he got a lot of advantages

Its over, either of you two (Dennis, Randy) can do better then stop pouting and do it. Right or wrong all you are doing is giving fodder to the cry babies on RCUNIVERSE.

Randy all you did all weekend was sit in your chair and pout. Every time anyone said hello to you all you could do was make some rude comment or ignore them. I am totaly sick and tired of the bashing that people like Chuck get every time they try and do anything.

Again Dennis you have made up you mind to "screw Chuck and the Nats" and that is what is behind it all

Grow up both of you and get with the HOBBY. It was fun I had a great time, met some great people and even flew some of my best flights ever.
If someone else got a helping hand then so be it, thats great I am happy for them. If anyone went to the Nats for any other reason than to test their flying then they went for the wrong reason. Its fun boys now why don't the both of you go away and take a deep breath and smile.

--------------------

Jabba wrote:
I sure did not see to many of the SCALE Committee HELPING OUT at the SCALE NATS.....

Dennis Crooks, and Eric drove LONG miles to come to the Canadian NATS.

This is the kind of BS they get!!!!

WHAT class in FUN SCALE should Crooks have flown in....?

He PAID his entry fees and should be allowed to enter just like anyone else.

The difference between Advance and Basic was weather you have flown in a contest before. This kept Dennis Crooks out of Basic. But Eric has NEVER FLOWN in a contest.

Eric comes down here and put on a display, and gave everyone a few bottoms of CA. I sure did not see people refuse the CA.

Were there problems with the NATS YES the rules book is a MESS!!!!
DID Dennis Pratt have problems in the Sudbury event YES.... I have heard may stories about that too.

We had the FIRST NATS that MAAC has had in several year... people had fun.....

Will they be better next time ..... I think so....

IF you think you can do a better JOB stand up to the plate and do the work.

Dennis Pratt you were asked to run for the CHAIR of the SCALE COMMITTEE and turn it down.

--------
Your absolutely right Palmer Chuck made it bluntly obvious that some on the Scale Committee would not be welcome in any capacity at the NATS even when offers were made and members made it known they were attending. You tell me what kind of person as an event organizer or the CD of a discipline who would not take the time to introduce a visiting zone director who also happens to be a member of the executive and also a member of the scale committee. Talking to Richard Barlow who is the Vice President of MAAC it sounds like he received about the same consideration. I know Carl Layden our President attended did the organizers bother to officially introduce him to the members or even recognize his presence.

After receiving a MAAC sanction for this event treating the members of the board and executive in such a manner is nothing short of ignorant and disrespectful. All of them came from great distances as well and what kind of welcome did they receive? The message and intent from the organizers was blunt and clear. All of you who sat around in your little clique and planed this should be ashamed of yourselves.

Dennis Pratt
---------------

Usedtobechair

Maybe you can tell me what rule was broken, when the judges decided to allow not one but 3 pilots this.

Soure grapes Dennis, looks like you ran the Sudbury thing Wrong if you did what you say should happen. No wonder there was a problem with the time limits in Sudbury


Goodbye Dennis,
-------

Wow......we all need a calm pill here... I was there and it was very well run and organized by the crew there and everyone should be congratulated. I know all of these guys personally and understandably knew there was some previous run-ins over the scale rules prior to the event, but the final call should be the rules as they are written, right or wrong as they may be. If there is a problem, it must be corrected for the future to avoid this public lashing. It is an embarrassment to the Zone to see this kind of stuff, when it seemed to run so smooth from a spectator's advantage point. In any case, I met Randy and he was not rude in any way to anyone around where I was on the flightline..in fact seem quite just Randy. Relax guys and try to edit the posts to a more "family oriented" reasoning...Jason doesnt need this kinda stuff here....It's reserved for the "OTHER" sites.
Congrats to all the winners..

Ron Harway
President
Sun Parlor RC Flyers
.....these guys are their own, and competitions, worst enemies. If I was truely the AntiChrist of anti-competition, I would shut up and allow them to implode. However, this stuff helps nobody, nor does it help to keep it festering in obscurity. Perhaps the good competitors will get tired of seeing this stuff and become motivated to get things back on track. [&:]
Old 08-16-2005, 10:23 AM
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kenair
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

This weekend showcased the best and bad of model aviation.
I think Gimli had more participants than the Nats, done with no funding or resources from MAAC and exposed aeromeodelling to hundreds of potential maac members and no negatives.

The nats - well read on at the rc can. [link=http://www.rccanada.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?t=17087]scale at MAAC Nats[/link]



yes, very sad but they can always blame it on someone.
Old 08-16-2005, 11:26 AM
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Default RE: The future of MAAC Nats

Ken,

I have to somewhat agree with Jim, in that you are mixing apples and oranges. Gimli is an excellent event as is Jets over Quinte, Scalemasters, etc. The Nats are designed for competition and while there may be some complaint as to the running of the scale section, it appears that the other venues that ran did OK. Be careful you do not confuse the rants of a few who have argued for quite some time over scale rules and running of events, with the success or failure of the event.Also am not certain whether MAAC is out of pocket on the NATS or not, and if so is it beyond what is reasonable for the organization to spend (I know, I know define reasonable). Have two bad weather years in a row at Gimli and see if sponsors and town backing remains if they suffer "a loss". Some things are simply beyond peoples control.

Does Gimli promote more interest in model aviation? My gut reaction would be yes as the venue demonstrates a cross section of the hobby (helicopters, jets, trainers, scale, etc) and all skill levels of modellers. And getting new members is a good thing.

JH

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