[sm=spinnyeyes.gif] [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] Me too !!

Free Bird

I did see your message 315, about the modifications of the Orion in Grid leaks, march april 1964
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>
Wow! I had never seen that before! I'm planning on building an Orion this winter. Perhaps I'll build two wings, make one a taildragger and trike gear and strip ailerons for the 2nd wing. The nose gear is a no-brainer and the same fuselage can be used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>

Sid Axelrod (GL) did want to make the show with the Orion for Top Flite (products) but, do remember please the "Frise" ailerons when you make the "old" wingset.
The "Frise" ailerons also were responsable for the succes of the Orion. Flying with them is pretty good. No rudder is needed when flying on ailerons during normal horizontal flight, but "Frise" ailerons also are not designed for acro.
So the old Orion is not a plane with "barndoors" as the Kwik Fly, but specially designed for "His Time" and in "His Program" he was the champion.

Look at the pictures of the "frise" ailerons of my Orion and have attention for the differences of the left aileron top side and right aileron back side.

So in this specially case, "Do not change a good design but, shoot the messenger"

History Hospital, prepairing the next message of the Oldest Taurus on Earth and presenting today after about 11 hours!.

Cees

Actually, Ed copied the Astro Hog ailerons, the Orion is a modified 'Hog', as Ed explained in his MAN article back in 1960. With the low power servos of the time, some aerodynamic and weight balance was thought to be needed, and the Friese type aileron did both nicely.
Evan.

Evan


Leslie George Frise was the inventor of the "Frise" aileron.
And because we use one servo for ailerons (also in the Taurus) weight balance you automatically have, and a lot of aerodynamic (static) balance,

Cees

Caution, Cees, that's a daring theory! All full-scale airplanes have both ailerons coupled and still use weight balance (likely to dis-tune them and prevent flutter). Besides, the ailerons you show on your Orion seem to be modified Frises, just like the Cessnas have because they are so simple and easy to build. BTW, to me they seem to be a rave of the 1960 like the swept rudder.

Evan, it would be interesting to know the 1960 article and Ed's thoughts. AFAIK, he placed high in the late 1950s nationals with an Astro Hog. Seems to be obvious that he just enhanced it giving the Orion, as he later enhanced the Orion giving the Taurus. I think all designers tried the same design elements at the same time, some of them (Ed for instance) finding the best combinations and dimensions and becoming champion, later displaced by others.

Ustik,

The balance weights reduce the static forces on the bearings of the connection rods and a part of dynamic forces during extern influences.


And yes Ustik, that's through:
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>
BTW, to me they seem to be a rave of the 1960 like the swept rudder.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>

Thats why I wrote about the Orion:"but specially designed for "His Time" and in "His Program" he was the champion."

That was all because of the reed systems and pretty when you did not have the money for a dual symultaneous (or even triple symultaneous) system, others you had to be a accordeon player.

Cees

If I could type proper I would have typed 1961 MAN. Again Ed uses the 'we' a lot, seems the gang was modifying the Astro to 'Orion' even back then. And yes Cees, Friese ailerons are statically balanced, and some are even differential. The idea was to increase the drag of the 'up' going aileron to help balance the aileron drag (adverse yaw) prevalent back in them days (1930's). Didn't take long to realise that the added complication just wasn't needed with R/C models and the strip aileron idea was born. By the way, Ed himself attributes the strip idea to Hal DeBolt in the Taurus article. Tom Brett must have been an early convert as his Nimbus 2 had them, and the Nimbus plan was published in 1961, same year as Orion.
Evan.

Evan,

That's why I wrote in post 319:
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>
We know that Ed is (one of) the inventor(s) of the strip ailerons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>

Was I correct with that?

And when you fly upside down your "frices" work contra. So it is no selution for a "multi" acrobatic plane!


Cees

Evan, thanks for the info. I well believe there was a "gang" Ed was discussing and developing with, but the "we" in articles was just common practice back then. It was frowned upon to say "I" in reputable publications, what was bad manners (and still is in scientific publications). Obviously, Ed had a decent education.

For me, the aileron discussion is muddling things up, neglecting other things like flutter and airfoil camber. I bail out...

History Hispital History Hospital History Hispital History Hospital History Hispital History Hospital History Hispital History Hospital


Gentlemen,



LAST THING TO PROVE FOR HISTORY HOSPITAL WHEN REPAIRING THE HISTORY OF THE TAURUS.


The last important post in the past was about the wings of auction 1, The wings on the left side in the crate, travelled through africa, later used by Ed to fly his Internationals in Belgium.
Wings that travelled through three continents and fly in two.That pair of wings you can go and see in the future in the AMA museum.

But>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>


Why travelling through Africa, with the Top Flite (MAN Magazine)Taurus, only have your good old spare wingset with you for the moment something go wrong?
What can you do with that, even when you radio is still working? No much!
Than you have to take also your spare fuselage with you.
The old fuselage once used to show the world what was a multicontrolled plane of the new generation, with tricycle undercarriage and strip ailerons.
The fuselage of the Taurus with its wings with 3 sewings each aileron. The fuselage of the old Taurus with his characteristic long tail moment and nose wheel brake.

Of course, in Africa the reed control radio receiver and servo's were built in the Top Flite (MAN Magazine) Taurus, so the good old spare fuse was empty, you can see that in the crate picture.
No antenne on the fuselage on the right side in the crate,see the picture with the blue arrow.
So also not a picture of Belgium because then we would have seen the proportional radio was already in this fuse!

But the fuselages?????? How to prove????

Then AVLWilsons came. Once the Taurus Flyer ask for a high resolution picture, not knowing AVL had that picture himself . AVL came with it! But Why,?
Who did tell AVL: "Hé, AVL send that picture, do not wait any longer, it is already 31 july!" (post 320)

And that picture of AVL? Was that só important?
Yes that was important! The fuselage of auction 2 you could see on it, but, there was more, Ed Kazmirski sitting near his Taurus.
Ed writing down a note! Writing down a note! Writing down a note! Writing down a note!- Writing down a note!
A note, Ed did writing down!

Once, before he went to Africa. Before he finished the old Taurus, Ed also did write on a little piece of paper, with a second-hand ballpoint.
The piece of paper that makes white squares you also can see in every cockpit of Ed but also of my own Taurus!
The picture of AVL Wilsons let me think that the solution of the Taurus maybe was written down by Ed on a note that we still could have and that has travelled all over the world.
That little o so very important piece of paper, behind the pilot in the cockpit also visible on the picture of AVLWilsons, with the 4 holes and the "turtledeckantenna".

Ed was an invintor, not a writer so the characters have some remarcables, also because Ed did not use a high quality pen and I am glad he did not.

So, I do want your attention to help me. You all with different screens, different computer.
For what do I need your all attention? Yes especially for a telephone number!!

On the pictures we see the paper in the cockpit of the Fuselage of auction 2
We seen the piece of paper also on the picture of Ed he did make of the crate in Africa.
Ed was a fotographer so >>>>>>>>>> enlarge the picture and look, maybe it is of excellent quality. Look what Ed did want to show us.

You see steps of enlarging the picture and rotate the picture to get a same picture as from Auction 2.
Stretch it 20 % to get the same dimensions as auction 2, so we can compare!
Change brightness and contrast tot get the most optimum view of the characters, written down by Ed, so we can see.
In the 5th picture I did import the picture next the piece of paper in the cockpit of auction 2!

And then, when you look to the characters, what do you see? Especially the first "vet" character of the phone number but also the others, what do you see?
It is the same piece of paper, the same registration sticker as the sticker in the fuselage of auction 2.(picture 6)

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>.
For everey body who can confirm my observation, please give a reply.
I do need your reply to make the observation valuable and true.
Later, maybe in the AMA Museum or somewhere els they can repeat this test to back up
So nothng can go wrong but please tell me your observation and let us all know.

Am I true??>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>


And when it's true, what does that mean?

It means the fuselage in the crate is the fuselage with sheeted tailplanes of auction 2

It means Ed did use the fuselage of the crate, in 1964 1965 to fly his contest flights with the wings of auction 2

It means also that this is really the fuselage Ed later made his first proportional radio in as the spare for Belgium.

It means also it is really the fuselage that once had flown with the wings with the 3 sewings (auction 1) pro aileron with probably a silk covered tailplane, together being the:

THE OLDEST TAURUS ON EARTH, AS OLD AS THE WAY TO ROME (Dutch for very old)


The Taurus is now separated now. But still with us on this moment, no doubt.
These two parts together really were the good old Taurus from Ed and probably the first one because Ed never let one piece unused behind or did not want to lose it.

Only the wings of The Top Flite (MAN Magazine) Taurus we didn't see back.

With this story we did give nearly every picture we have seen a global place and timeperiod,

There rest only one question, wich Taurus Ed really did use during the nats in 1962 to become the champion on that!
Was it the Top Flite (MAN Magazine) Taurus? Without contest paintings?
Then our Oldest Taurus on Earth already was retired and his wings came back one moment in Belgium to steel the show for the last time.
The fuselage we know now was of that "model" about the reporter did wrote about during the Internationals in Belgium:

"Ed Kazmirski also had the Proportional in a model but elected to fly his reed system equipped Taurus instead."

And what do we say? We from History Hospital!

GOOD NIGHT REPORTER, IT WAS NOT A "MODEL", BUT THE OLDEST TAURUS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE OLDEST TAURUS.

I hope to get respons from you all and so also the history the fuselage of auction 2 maybe is repaired.
When you have questions, please react also, because I could have maked a fault.
Interesting is of the owner of the fuselage also agree with this story , checking for us the antenna feed trough? in the cockpit?

BTW
The high resolution picture of the crate is from Chuck Noble, he has the orginal black and white picture and the first high resolution picture, so this test can be done by others again to back up the observations and commit

Cees

I think these are the correct MAN publication dates -

Smog Hog February 1957
Astro Hog April 1958
Orion June 1960
Taurus January 1963

Ray

Quite right Ray, to which you can add Nimbus, June 1962. Interesting thing, how long did it take to get the plans published from the time the model was first flown? We know that the Astro Hog first flew sometime in 1957, so some of these models may have been flying for quite some time before the first published details come to light.
Evan.

Sorry to be referring to post #298 after several days, but are you sure of the April 1962 date? If that's the case, then Ed would be traveling the world promoting R/C pattern and the Taurus BEFORE he won the '62 Nats, which was what made the Taurus well-known.

I suppose that as 1960 world Champ, that would give him credentials enough for a trip like this, but for us in the "States", the Taurus came on the scene at the '62 NAts, and REALLY cemented Ed's fame as the leader in pattern flying for that period.

I suppose the date is correct, but it seems more "logical" in hindsight to have him tour AFTER the Taurus won the Nats and the kit was being produced. Just wanted to be absolutely sure.
Duane

This thread would not be complete without this picture taken two years ago honoring Ed for his contributions to R/C pattern, and presented by the Vintage R/C Society, (VR/CS). Attached is this very special picture showing Ed holding the fuselage to the first Taurus auctioned...with the Top Flite pilot. Notice the PLAYBOY BUNNY. This is the fuselage VR/CS will be donating to the museum.

Photo I believe was taken by Jack Hiner from VR/CS. It was taken at Ed's home in 2006.

Gentlemen,

In post 335 about the Taurus fuselage of auction2 I ask if somebody recognices the phone number of the "very" enlarged part of the picture if the fuselage in the crate

Nearly 200 visiter and still no response so, some more explanation.

I did import that part of the important picture of "the crate" in the picture of the cockit of the fuse of auction 2
I do see the similarity but want know if there are more peole who see it, can confirm.
I did make blue squares around parts you maybe see the similarity.

If you see, give me a reply please?

Cees

Duane, just to confirm that Ed's African tour started from Chicago on Tuesday April 17th 1962 and lasted for three weeks. (Source - December 1962 MAN page 15)

1962 US Nationals was held at Glenview Naval Air Station, Illinois July 23rd - July 29th 1962 (Source - October 1962 MAN page 34)

Ed had a busy summer that year!!

Thanks Evan, although wasn't that in American Modeler magazine ???

Ray

Sure was.
Evan.

The phone number is TO27513. At least the first three characters are the same on both labels. You can clearly see the TO2 in the right-hand image, and maybe the 7 if you squint.

David

Ray,

I am also looking in the past, Ed's African Tour, He did show the people of Africa what control equipment is and what you can do with it.

I did had a remarkable discovery in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe).
A further development of his 10 channel radio. he did use overthere in 1962.

What you see is "the Kalimba" or "Sanz". The picture is of a modern `full simultaneous 15 channel thumb muscle powered reeds soundwave transmitter`, as we all know from the population, built from natural materials. As we, they also use there tumbs to operate the transmitter, in special African modus.
Of course I am also looking for the plane with it´s receiver. When I found one I also will show you a picture of that.

Cees

The phone # looks like the early formatt with a combination of letters and numbers. Read it as TO and not T zero. Translates to 862-7513.
John W.

Yes, that's how I interpreted it, too, as the letter "O."

David

David, Thank you very much, you give me the first response.

With your message you confirm my observation the both pictures are of the same paper?
Because you would find the same phone number on every paper of that period from Ed.

As you, I look also to bold first character and the next two, and the dimensions and proportions. Also the a part of the third character 2 you can recognize.

David and John I did only use the "characters" because in the Netherlands we do not use letters, and for me it was not clear.
But most important is , look if you can confirm it is the same paper! John, how do you think??


It is amazing that, when we confirm, the fuselages are the same, in the Crate and in Auction 2.

Then we can reproduce the story of Ed around a remarkable low count of components.
We also can say, `He must have been a very good pilot` and we know.
And `He must have been a very good modeller` and we know also!

Thank you David

@ AVL Wilsons,

Duane, I did not forget, but we live in an other part of the world. An other time. So a response now.
We did see de picture of Ed Kazmirski, a moment back with us with the fuse of Belgium. A very nice picture!
Yes we lost a great man, but I hope we do something to say "thank you". By repairing the history, as good as possible.
Maybe there are others who still know the real and whole story. we only try and we can make mistakes I know.
But Ed could no tell it anymore, so.

Thank you Duane


Cees

I DON'T KNOW FOLKS. I don't have access to the original e-bay pictures anymore, but it's a bit of a stretch to compare the labels(thank goodness this isn't a court of law...it probably wouldn't stand up). They are probably the same phone number, but that doesn't really prove anything. I think Ed lived at the same address and phone number for a number of years. Is the phone number of the original e-bay Taurus the same?

Duane

All it probably means is that he filled out the labels at the same time. I still have a stack of ID labels with an old address and phone number written on them.

It's a mistake to apply logic to the past. People do things all the time that don't make sense, or don't appear logical, and it's always been that way. Sometimes things that occurred in the past do make sense. But, just as often they don't. It's tempting to try and construct history as a narrative of linear, causal events based on our limited number of facts because of our desire to create explanations that "make sense" to us today. That seems to be a normal thing we regularly tend to do. It's possible that Ed was campaigning his Nats winning model, but it's just as likely that taking the Taurus on the road allowed him to refine it to a degree that he was able to return home and use it to win. Maybe Mr. Hunt will recall the details and dates and clear a few things up.

Trying to guess the motives and actions of an individual in the past is no different than trying to predict the motives of someone today. We can try to figure out what Ed did some forty-five years ago, but there's no rule that says it had to be logical. Histories that are constructed in an attempt to make sense by our present standards are usually inaccurate. As Duane alluded to, that's closer to what lawyers try to do with jurors. Their goal is not to be historically accurate, but to be convincing and logical, which really doesn't have a whole lot to do with how a given individual might have acted in the past.

David