Fastlif

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This is a thread for any flippy thoughts and wonders. Over the past week there has been grumblings between profile type planes and the full on competition planes used throughout the land. Here goes with some basics. I know I will have left out something, or some info, so bear with it. There is nothing here about a Knife or any other Morris type plane, as they are simply not competitive in the Expert class of fun fly Competition. They are very competitive in the Sportsman class though, so dont fear, there is plenty of use for your favorite ship at your local fun fly. There is also Fun Fly classes, where you do bomb drop, spins, some sort of pre made fun to do event, then there is the full on timed events that we use what we call stickits or flippys in, this is the Unlimited events, this is where you fly soley against the clock to do a certain event. Also, there is two classes per event, Expert and Sportsman. So no matter what you fly, how good you are, you can compete, and yes you can, as we have people with all sorts of planes, from trainers to 1/4 cubs or Wacos. Yes those crazy Canadiens fly anything. You can see some people do some amazing things with airplanes at contests, from goof off flying, to fighting the clock. Like 3D, you will see that too in open flying between rounds. Many planes are used and enjoyed, here are some highlights of the most popular on the current used that are the most competitive. Dont flame back that you have this or that, that is not what this thread is about, if you want to flame me or any other comp flyer, come to a contest and flame us, we will be glad to listen to your thoughts. I am simply giving some details of what is used, done, or considered here in the fun fly competition world as I know it. I know there are alot of you out there that fly profiles and are darn good flyers, hopefully we could use this forum as a tool to get some people interested in competing this summer at a fun fly or two. I know everyone is not interested in competing also, that is fine, maybe you can just relax and learn a few things too?



A Menace, Plus, and a Minus are profiles. Planes that are used in everyday bang around flying, and fun fly comp. Not the Unlimited comp, altho, it was proven last summer by a flier that you could use a Minus and still almost win in the Unlimited when his stickit was ditched due to a bad radio. That is with even a rudder and fuse sides installed. As for a stick boom plane, for comp. I would recommend simply a Turner Minus without the fuse sides, this was used last summer to win the Nationals. Or you could use Shope's Plus without the fuse parts installed and build a fixed rudder like any stickit and glue to the boom. quite honestly that would be about as good as it gets. We pretty much all have a home brew plane that we build, but when it comes down to it, they all have so many plus and minuses that its a give and take. When you can buy a kit from Turners or Shope and throw it together and get the same great flying plane. Steve and I use a all carbon boxed up wing, carbon tied to a carbon boom etc... works very good, but I am tinkering with foam ribs, borrowed idea from the southern boys of last summer, for more durable wings, as the carbon can move and flex, the the balsa ribs explode inside, not good. Honestly tho, after seeing Scott Turner last summer just rip with the Minus without the fuse sides, I can only recommend that very highly. It will save you much time from scratch building and it flat out works. Maybe extend the tail moment to 21 1/2 hinge to hinge, add an inch on the carbon boom and go rip it around. It will beat any other plane, as proven last summer. Shopes Plus I believe has the same potential. Just its new for this summer, so its not comp tested yet. Andraka has some awesome designs for his planes, and they work too, you would have to talk to him for details, he will give them up, last year I took pics and we talked, just he has a very unique process for building them, but let me tell you, his plane was awesome last summer.
The southern guys have some great ideas too, again, they would have to write in giving up some goods on them, as I dont know thier specs in my head. The had some cool ideas using foam ribs last summer.
Motors, Webra 32 with a mousse can. Build your own, or buy from Flying Z hobbies, there was post on here a while back with a link. Wood 10x4 props, of some sort or shape, whether shaved, sanded, or whatever, but you gotta get the R's up. Run 30-40 percent nitro to help out, good fuel too. Servos, well some guys are running Digital, some are not. Myself I run futaba 9303 with Nylon gear sets, S131, to make them lighter. There are many servos to go for, JR makes some great servos, if you run JR, like 8411's and such. For throttle most of us simply use just an HS-81 nylon gear. Seems to hold up better than a Futaba smally. For throttle pushrod I use .042 safety wire, twisted in a vise, cut to size and z bend. Light, but strong. 4-40 on aileron, and pull pull on elevator. Save weight wherever you can, run nylon gear servos if you can, run about 100 ounce of torque for the big ailerons. Even go with 6 volts if you have to. Some servos give it up with 4.8, and that is fine. Faster the servo the better. Some of us use NI-CD still, others are with the newer batteries, poly, and such, to each his own there. Use the Ultracote Light covering, or Micafilm, saves weight. Sand or do not use anything that is extra, just the minumums here, you are looking for 2lbs or max 2 1/2 lbs. total weight. Looking for max throw on ailerons, elevator, flaperon maybe, but its a trial and error to find out the best mix. goto the field fly loops without flaps on, then mix flaps in and watch them tighten, till it drops out, then back off the flaps a bit. Inside and outside. Rolls you simply want them blinding fast if you can get it. There is no rudder, so thats easy! Airbrake is mandatory, these things will float, so mix in some airbrake when you cut back the throttle, say 20 percent up flaps to start, it will make a difference, so start low and work up till you are happy with how it dives to the ground.
Run good plugs, fuel line, tanks, horns, prop nuts. Small stuff that adds up. Lighter is better, remember that.
This is a basic list to get you going on a "Stick It" type plane, or so called a stick boom plane, or flippy.
Hope it helps some.

With a Minus, simply build the kit, it flat out smokes. Same goes for the Plus, the Menace is a bit bigger, so she is a little slower on the take, but it will get the job done. Benefit of the Menace is that its like an A-10 of RC airplanes, it just keeps flying. The Minus and Plus are a little more fragile. All of them simply build and enjoy, with a good 32, mousse can, good servos(again from 70-100 ounce torque) and have fun.
These planes when turned down a notch are like a super light Knife, they can do all the usual Knife stuff, but they do it lighter. So if you like flying a Knife, and goofing around, you would like or love a Menace, or Minus.

Hope this info was helpful.

ChuckAuger

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I'm putting the finishing touches on a Little Rippy..kinda strange looking plane..I kept looking for the tip ribs, then noticed it didn't have any airfoil at the tip..I guess I'll see how it flys..

James..on the Stickits I used 131s (that was the best servo back then..) and still have a few of them, and then the 9201, and 9202. These have pretty good torque, but aren't real fast. They do work fine on 6v..I need to get some small 6v packs I guess. Also have some 4721's, but I've stripped a lot of gears on them and don't think I'm gonna use them..

Hopefully will get to fly it this week...if the wind will just die a little bit.

Fastlif

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Yep the lil rippy will get you going. the 9202 I can say I have tried, and they dont really work for stickits. they even dont have the poop on 6volts. they are a great servo for bang around fun fly type planes, but full on stuff they dont have enough power, which stinks cause they are semi affordable. There has been leaps made in the past two years with servos, by all manufacters, everyone has their good and bad. Basically go with what you can afford, and you are searching to land in the 100 ounce ball park for stickit type planes.
we have wind here too, seems the spring is for a kite, not toy planes.

PaulSwany

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Thanks James.... Great discourse on the state of the art for competition fun fly planes.... I really like my Menace Plus... but it could use some more dialing in to be competitive...

I'm still a little confused on the airbrake setup.... for loop touch and goes... You have flapperon's turn on right? Then on a separate switch, mix flaps to throttle so that you get up flaps with low throttle stick? Is that how you set yours up?

Fastlif

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Yes Paul, have both on, that way when you are right above the spot you want to touch, cut the throttle and your airbrakes can drop the plane for you. One less thing to think about. this is easily programmed in after you fiddle with your flaperons and get your looping correct.

PaulSwany

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Cool... That's very simular to how Mark Shope has his set up..... I'll try it out...

Those loop touch and goes just look too cool!!!

Airwurthy

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The airbrake function is not only very, very useful for NCFFA events, its kinda fun to play with too. It kinda reminds you of what "lift" is all about. If you mix it with throttle and still have an elev/flap mix on you will really have fun.
For LTG's I'd leave the airbrake off unless you have a pretty good headwind, in this event it pretty much does more altitude losing than airbraking which you don't need. Don't forget....great spot landing tool too if mixed with throttle.
Thanks for the compliment Jim, I swear radio failure really, really hurts. What do I do with that radio? I can't in good conscience sell it, but don't wanna give it away either. Futaba has no sympathy if your stuff is 91 days old, makes me want to dig out the Kraft.
P.S. remember that pull-pull cable I did 3 years ago that we argued about? Its still holding, just the melt thing, no crimps. I think you owe me something....I think its a beer or a dog treat or something.

Fastlif

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I dont remember argueing with you about the pull pull, but yes the melting does work, seen it enuf to believe. I will give you a beer and you can stay at my hotel this summer.
Keep the radio and use it for cheap no good stuff. I know, we have lots of that right? read electric. I am happy with my 9C, so far, Futaba needs help with servos, JR looks better and better.
Also, on airbrakes, turn off airbrakes if you are going to be messing around low, low speed inverted flight. bad things happen when you try to coast, your plane dives when flaps go up, sending you into sweat mode.

3Dreaming

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What is the 10x4 wood prop of choice for the Webra.32? I would like something out of the box with no shaving. Tom

Ryan Nau

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go to www.ncffafunfly.com and click on suppliers and then it will show you the prop that works the best. They are like the rev up. APC 10x4's also work really well.

funflysteve

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As you will notice 3DReaming they arent cheap but well worth the money if you are looking for the ultimate prop for a webra 32 and mouse can pipe. The pipe Jim mentioned is being treid thoroughly as we speak and i am really liking the out of the box performance....with a little sanding and massaging on the prop i am sure to see at or above 17500 on my ships....with 45% morgan fuel. Info looks good jim . Any questions guys and we will help as much as possible and i hope to see some of you all at a contest this year...we are always looking for new blood and someone to keep the turners on their toes...lol

ChuckAuger

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To Kentucky Mousse Can:

Muffler

Fastlif

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Thanks Chuck for the link to the Mousse Can. Yeah the Rev-Up type prop is what is used on the webra, harder to come by. Some have a very good luck taking an 11x4 Top Flite and taking off that inch to a 10 incher, then sanding the face to build up the R's. this is trial and error and it takes much patience, but it does work, and work quite well. So that is a route to take, but not a walk in and walk out way to run the game.

ceandra

Hey, Skipp!

I saw a similar problem with a 8U this spring. Ended up the connector in the TX where the battery plugged in had cracked solder, resulting in intermittant operatio (on a Nelson racer). Re-soldered, its good to go.

Take off your back case, plug in the battery, turn it on, and wiggle. If anything beeps (resets), then you found the problem.

If not, switch back to JR.

3D: I think there is a limited supply of the rev-up look-alikes available. After that, we'll all have to carve props. However, its not that bad. Last summer I actually sold my last bag of Rev-ups, because I was too afraid to run them. Might like them and then not be able to replace them. I use the Top Flight 10x4, and thin it by about 30% using a 4" standing belt sander and a balancer. Nothing high tech, and I get great perfomance. Do each step to each side, rather than a whole side at once, and you will come out OK.

1. Sharpen the tip. Just touch it to the belt parallel to the tip, cuttin in about 3/8" from the tip, on the top of the airfoil. Could do this at the field with a sanding block. Just get the very tip razor thin. In fact, this one mod will do more than anything else, and you could quit here.
2. Sharpen LE. Straight sand back to high point (or just in front of high point).
3. Sharpen TE. Straight sand forward to just behind high point. This should leave about 1/8" unsanded at the high point, so that you still have that for reference.
4. Knock down high point. Rock the blade while pressing on the sander, in order to restore a rounded shape. Try not to move the high point much. I like to use the belt just below the top roller, where ther is no backing board, so that the belt will deflect into a curve.
5. Final balance and sand with 180 to 220 grid by hand.
6. Paint if you want, but you're just going to break it. I use clear dope spray.

Chuck

Fastlif

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Thanks for the info Chuck. Sounds good. The days of sanding are coming up, that is after the days of building.

3Dreaming

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Chuck, I've been running some very modified 11x4 Zingers. The Webra is turning them faster than the HP.40 I had been running. I'm Flying it on a 3 pound 1 ounce Sledge profile. I just don't like to spend that much time carving props if I can buy one that I like.Tom

pafflyer23

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I don't like to say a product is bad, but let's just say the 10-4 Zinger props never performed well on our FF planes unless you only used them to mix epoxy during construction. Stock TF 10/4 and stock RevUp copys worked about 200% better. Yeah - those props that work cost more...something about getting what you pay for. It IS important to experiment and some times the r's on the tach don't equal performance in the air. The great thing about RCU is you can read what works for others and take advantage of their experiments. AND - if you fly with some of those people you can (sometimes) just bum a good prop from them and not have to build your own !
PAF

3Dreaming

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I would have to agree with you on the fact that the Stock Zinger is not a very good prop. If you noticed I said "very modified". I consider it a prop blank to sand on. I was using it on a HP.40, and it was working better than the 11x4 Rev-Up I had. I tried it on the Webra when I put in the plane and performance was very good. I sent an E-mail and place a call to try and get some of the Rev-Up clones, but as of yet I have received no response. I have some TF 11x4's I'll have to trim on. Anyone have a picture of the modified TF props? Tom