Keith,
On mine, the bubble at the top got to be 1/3 down. If it remains the same size, ie tiny, then it may be something else.

Dave

Just popped in for a sec... So this means the engine was operating at 135K RPM and an EGT of 395C. The RPM is well within the shutdown safety limits, and the EGT is above the minimum running temp of 250C. On a side note, it does seem on the cool side though so yo might want to check the insertion depth of the EGT probe...

The asterisk in position 4 designates a shut down commanded by the user, or due to a loss in signal. What sort of range are you getting on the ground with the turbine running? To be truly accurate, the model should be a few feet off the ground (using a table for example) and you should hold the transmitter out to the side of you with fill arm extension, and the areal down all the way. If you want to get really picky, test the model at a variety of orientations relative to the transmitter (flying left, right, towards and away from you, etc) and with any whip antennas deflected back to simulate the effect from airflow.

Kelly

Kelly,
I'll perform a more thorough range check before the next flight. I'm not sure when the glitch counter zeros out, but it didn't have a figure displayed after the last flight.

Did you see the input from Dave? He experienced a problem with the orientation of the main tank, feed line facing aft instead of forward. Could this be a cause. Anyway, he said it cleared a flame-out condition he had. What kind of error would the GDT display for this?

Also, can rapid throttle movement cause a flame-out? I don't think I'm moving the throttle too fast but it seems the flame-outs occur while the model is descending and after the throttle has been decreased, such as coming out of a loop. I fly fairly close in so I've been able to hear the turbine spool down each time a flameout occurs.

Cheers,
Keith

Kelly,
The PST manual mentioned using a whip antenna. Is this the best type of antenna to use? On the R54, the antenna is routed through the fuselage. I could easily mount a whip antenna if that is considered the best way to go.

Keith

Yes, I read that response, but here's the logic... A flame out can be caused by the ECU or external factors. If its caused by the ECU, its due to a falesafe or user commanded. In that case the asterisk is shown in position #4. If the flame goes out due to a bubble or some other reason, it will either show up as a temperature out of limits or an RPM out of limits. Keep in mind, every brand of ECU is like a blind person, it only has a few senses to depend on.... They only have information on the RPM and EGT, that's it... If this particular ECU sees the temp drop below 250C, it knows the flame has gone out so it shuts down the pump, starts the cooling cycle, and displays an asterisk in position #2. If the flame goes out on its own, it can also show up as a low RPM if that parameter happens to drop sooner than the EGT. (They both drop out of limits very quickly...) If the RPM drops out of limits, the ECU also shuts down the pump, starts the cooling cycle, and displays an asterisk in position #1. since you have one in position #4 and the last snapshot of data stated the 2 parameters within running spec, this is a pretty clear indicator that the fuel system wasn't at fault.

RE, whip antennas, the key is really getting the antennae away from the on board electronics such as high current drawing servos, fuel pump, smoke pump (if used), the ECU, ECU pack, etc. Creative positioning of the hardware can often negate the need for a whip, but they do work well. I use them on both of my jets, and will use them on the one's I'm building. Do a search for whip antennas and you'll likely get a good sense of the variety available. Basically, there are the full length ones where you cut down the receiver lead by an equivalent amount, and there are base loaded antennas that are rather short but account for almost the full length.

Kelly

Kelly,
Thanks for the response. I obviously have a lot to learn about turbine engines. As I become more aware of the GDT's capabilities, I will know what to look for should future problems occur. I've had four flame-outs so far. The first occurred on the first flight...I thought is was caused by a low ECU battery. But to be honest, I didn't understand the shut down data. Now I think it was the same indication as my last flight (#4 - user shutdown). The shut down occurred about four minutes into the flight, about the same time as the last flight. The next two flame-outs were EGT related. I think I bumped the EGT wire with the exhaust tube (necessary with the R54) and the result was a high EGT reading. The next flight was a low EGT reading because I pulled the EGT wire out too far. It is now inserted about 1/32 of an inch. These two flights were short...about two minutes. Your comment about the EGT being a wee bit low might be a result of the above occurrences.

The current antenna wire runs along the inside of the fuselage. It is several inches away from the ECU and other components. A whip antenna could be installed so that it is further away from all the components. Because I have a whip antenna available, I'll go ahead and install it then perform a thorough range check. The manual states to keep the ECU and receiver batteries separated. This is almost impossible with the R54. There just isn't enough room to move the batteries so they are inches apart. Could this be a cause?

Keith

Hey Keith, with regards to the earlier post about the fuel system...
The J600R has a less significant fuel flow rate in comparison to the 1300R obviously. The 1300R and any other turbine of that thrust class will see a larger benefit from the 6mm lines through the fuse, but its likely not necessary at all for the 600R in a Reaction 54 since the fuel line from the pump will be relatively short.

The UAT comes with a short section of 6mm hose and a fuel dot. This is what I'd used for the filling port. Either that or I'd use the 6mm hose and a ball valve. The connection to your main tank should probably just be a short section of the largest diameter Tygon hose you can find. The only reason I recommend Tygon here is that the outlet tube from the main tank may need to have the hose stretched over it and wire wrapped, and Tygon is much softer and better for adapting... Between the UAT and the pump I'd start with 6mm polyurethane (like the fill port) then switch down (with a Barbed fitting) to 4mm a couple inches from the pump. Exiting the pump, you really don't need to worry about sizing up to 6mm in this case. 4mm line straight to the engine will suffice and still keep your pump voltages within reason. Installing a filter in this area is highly recommended though. I am in the midst of ordering a number of items from Festo and I can grab an extra 50 micron filter for 4mm hose if you like. I don't know the what my price will be but a safe estimate would be $7.00 for now. I'll post a link to the whole price list when I get the chance, but for now here's a few items of interest. I still need to verify the prices from an updated quote so they're subject to change at any time...

4mm 50 micron filter: $7.00
6mm 70 micron filter: $7.00
6mm to 4mm barb fitting: $0.50
6mm clear Polyurethane hose: $6.75 per 3m
4mm clear Polyurethane hose: $4.50 per 3m

4mm to 6mm Festo Union: $4.00
4mm union: $3.50
6mm union: $3.50
4mm Ball Valve: $11.00
6mm Ball Valve: $11.00


Now on the antenna and range...
The battery position could be causing trouble, but it doesn't seem to be much of an issue for the other R-543 owners out there. Basically what we state are ideal 'best practices'. Now, virtually no aircraft kit is ideal when installing all the hardware, so you have to make a few compromises. The most critical item to remove is the fuel pump, followed by the ECU and / or ECU pack.

Lastly, you should be seeing EGT's in the 500's to mid/high 600's. Any less and your probe is likely too far out. I've had one PST user flame out a couple times from low EGT, easily fixed by adjusting the probe depth.

Kelly

Kelly,
OK...using you guidance, if I replace the shut off valve with a 6mm valve then the entire fuel system would use 6mm tubing up to the pump. The pump, filter, and turbine would use 4mm tubing. I would need one 4mm/6mm barbed fitting, a 4mm filter, a 6mm shut off valve, and some 4mm and 6mm tubing. When could you ship these items? Provide me with a phone number and I'll call you for further details.

I installed a whip antenna. A range check was performed and no glitches were noticed. I'll perform a range check with the turbine running this weekend. Hopefully this will solve the problem.

Cheers,
Keith

The shut off valve stays at 4mm. In your case I'm saying you should leave it as is after the pump, so it should go: Pump ---> 4mm ball valve ---> filter ---> Turbine... The 6mm ball valve woudl be used on the feed line to the UAT.

My contact info is [link=http://www.pstna.com/service.htm]here[/link]. I don't currently have stock of the 4mm valves, but I'm placing the order later today. I have stock of everything else...

Kelly

Kelly,
Success! I flew two times today...no flameouts. The whip antenna apparently remedied the problem. Two six minute flights were flown. The EGT was also much better....reading 480C - 490C before take-off with about 1/16 inch of the wire inserted.

Thanks for the help, I'm going to work on the fuel system next.

Keith

Kelly,
Two more successful flights! It really is nice to have confidence in the turbine. The turbine is running as advertised. I haven't changed the fuel system yet...will do so before flying again. I wanted to ensure the flameout problem was solved first.

Cheers,
Keith

Kelly,
Another jet flyer experienced a FOD incident at our field. We got to taking about using FOD screens. Do you recommend the use of a screen on the PST? How much are they?

What is the average life span for a glow plug/PST600R?

Thanks,
Keith

Keith, Sorry for taking a few days to reply. I just got back from a short trip down to Seattle where I finally saw the SR-71 for the 1st time at the Museum of Flight!

Go to your nearest dollar store and pick up a strainer that roughly matches (slightly smaller) the intake fairing on your motor. Remove the handle(s), cut a hole in it and insert a rubber stopper or equivalent, and you've got yourself a FOD screen on the cheap! It'll run you somewhere around $3... Either that or I can recommend a few sources that are pre-made but more expensive...

The glow pug life span differs greatly. I don't have any numbers here, but they can last a very long time if you treat them right. I have not changed the plugs in any of my engines for quite some time... Many factors can effect plug's lifetime: filament diameter, plug voltage, number of starts, average length of glow voltage applied per start cycle, how good you are at pulling out the fillamement with evenly stressed coils, etc...

To achieve best results anneal the plug before pulling out the coils. Do this with a glow ignition and pulse it to make the coil come back to room temp slowly. Next get a pin or pointy exactro knife blade and deflect the first rotation of the helix out. Follow that with next rotation and the 3rd if necessary, such that they are close to evenly stretched when the total exposure matches up with the 2mm spec in the manual (on page 10). The motor comes with an OS A3, but any plug without an idle bar should work... Personally, I try to run a plug voltage that's as low as possible. I started around 2.1V and went as low as 1.7, while still getting reliable ignition.

Kelly

[/quote]

Go to your nearest dollar store and pick up a strainer that roughly matches (slightly smaller) the intake fairing on your motor. Remove the handle(s), cut a hole in it and insert a rubber stopper or equivalent, and you've got yourself a FOD screen on the cheap! It'll run you somewhere around $3... Either that or I can recommend a few sources that are pre-made but more expensive...

Kelly
[/quote]

Keith

Here is the system I use for my PST's. It is a 3" tea strainer that can be purchased at any store that sells dinnerware. Just cut off the handle and the two ears oppisite the handle and you have a ready made FOD screen. Carefully cut the hole in the middle to fit the starter and seal the screen with thick CA or grommet. Slide it over the starter and hold in place with an O-ring on the starter hub.

Roy

Kelly and Roy,
Well...you can't get much cheaper than that! How simple! I'll get a screen today and modify it. Thanks for the tip and pictures.

I'm glad to hear that plugs can lasts a long time. I was under the impression that plugs had a short life span. Just one of those nagging things that bug you until you find out different. I have seventeen flights to date and the engine is running great. I changed the fuel system as you suggested and everything seems fine.

Thanks,
Keith

Keith,

A few addition comments I forgot to mention... You should try to find a strainer that as coarse as possible, in the interest of minimising the pressure drop across the screen. Other than that, you need to have a good look at the screen after cutting to make sure there aren't any loose screen fibers. Once its been checked, Roy's idea to seal it with an adhesive is also a good follow up. I'd recommend trying the black rubbery CA glue or a silicone of some kind. Thick CA has a habit of becoming brittle in some cases, which could negate the point of the FOD screen some time down the road.

Good luck!

Kelly

Kelly

Excellent point about the thick CA. I have found a sealer that does not get brittle and stays flexible and withstands fuels. It works to hold the cut metal pieces of the strainer in place but remains flexable.

Roy

From the pictures, the tea strainer is too fine [X(]. You will need a coarser one. My estimate is that you are reducing the compressor frontal area by more than 40% with that very fine tea strainer. We use "sink drain" filter instead of tea strainer. You should be able to find coarser screen in the kitchen and plumbing section. Sorry, but such restricting screen will limit your J600R's performance and may cause compressor stall.

Regards,
Kraivuth S.

Kelly,
I have 40 flights on my 600R now and am completely satisfied with its performance. The early glitches are a distant memory. Unfortunately, I'm leaving for my next duty assignment and will be gone for nine months. What is the correct procedure to place a turbine into storage? I'm familiar with 2C and 4C engines but wondered if the turbine has special requirements I may not be familiar with.

Thanks,
Keith

For long term storage:

1. Stand the turbine up on its tail cone and run kerosene fuel thru the turbine until it drips out the tail cone.
2. Give the turbine a few spins.
3. Seal the fuel and gas lines.
4. Clean the exterior.
5. Wrap the turbine with rag and place it in a plastic bag.
6. Seal the bag and store her standing up.

If you are just storing the turbine for a month or two, you can just leave her in the airframe providing that the jet is kept away from high moisture area. After long storage, it is also wise to check your battery and fuel/gas plumbing.

Regards,
Kraivuth S.

Hi Kelly,
Many months ago, B777 said that PST would develop and sell a FOD screen for PST turbines, the 600R in my case. Is that endeavor still on going? When will a FOD screen be available?

Is there a 4mm ball valve available with a mount flange? The ball valve provided with the turbine does not have a mount flange....on my new model a flange would make mounting a bit easier. Cost?

Thanks,
Keith

Keith,
Contact Todd at Dreamworks, he has a FOD screen for the PST 600R, I think it was around $10. He also has a mount for the Festo valve which looks and works great.
Tommy

Keith,

I believe they do make a FOD screen for it, but these things are not rocket science by any means. I'm sure there are many available that will fit a 600R and not restrict the airflow through the engine.

I could look into getting one from PST for you if you like? PM me if interested.

Festo's manufacturer of ball valves does not make a variant of the valve with bolt down features (although it sure would be nice if they did...). They do make a bulkhead union style valve, but that's not really a good solution for most, so the mountain clip solution that was suggested earlier would likely be your best bet.

Kelly

Todd has a small device that works like a collar that fits around the valve. It is a two piece aluminum unit that has some mounting attachment that allows you put the Festo valve in it and then attach it to the aircraft. I picked up some from him and wondered why I had never thought of it myself.

Kelly and Doc Yates,
Thanks for the response. The reason I haven't put my own FOD screen together is there aren't any screens availalbe near my location. I'll have to rely on commercially available screens. So...Kelly I'll go with the PST screen if available; I need two. Hopefully they are of the same quality as the P-60/P-70 screens I've seen. And, I need a couple of 4mm to 2mm barb fittings.

Doc Yates; thanks for the tip on the mount for a ball valve. Wow, very simple! Why didn't I think of that!

Cheers,
Keith