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How many hours to proficciency?

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How many hours to proficciency?

Old 05-20-2022, 10:42 AM
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baerster
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Default How many hours to proficciency?

How many hours of stick time (on an actual plane or with a simulator) did it take for you to be able to confidently taxi, takeoff, fly a pattern, and land with a trainer cub without any stability controls (SAFE, etc.)?
Old 05-22-2022, 06:22 AM
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Steve Collins
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Not sure of how many hours but I worked with an instructor from May to mid-August 1983 before I soloed. I have seen people successfully solo after as few as three flights so there is no definite answer as to how long it will take. Every individual pilot is different.
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baerster (05-23-2022)
Old 05-22-2022, 07:42 AM
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When I started R/C flying in 1975 at the age of 21 it took two flights with an instruktor before I could start, fly and land myself. Model was a three channel high wing airplane, 160cm in spann(Lill-Johanna by Bo Gårdstad ) with an OS MAX .25 engine. Radio Futaba 4channel AM radio on 27Mhz.
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Old 05-22-2022, 12:46 PM
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Two many unknows to give a meaningful answer.

Age has a lot to do with it - the younger one is, the faster you can develop the eye/hand coordination.
Frequency of repetition has a lot to do with it. Doing it every day is much better than once a week.
Previous practice with other eye/hand (games, sports, etc.) can speed it greatly.
Type of training - pass the transmitter makes things harder, having a buddy box where one can pass control immediately is best. Trying all on your own is worst.
Your mindset - willing to make mistakes with others around, or uncertainty as to whether you can do it at all, play a huge role.
I've had 40 year olds solo from zero in as little as 4 flights. I've had 70 year olds that take 2 years, doing 2-3 flights once a week for just the summer seasons.
Just like riding a bike or playing an instrument - everyone can get there. The rate of progress depends on the individual.

Buy a simulator, and use it every day. Get to the field for flight using a buddy box with an instructor as often as you possibly can,
Concentrate on just the basics you outlined - especially in the Sim, minimize distraction in your practice time by not trying all sorts of planes, different fields, challenges, etc. (ie - do that other stuff for playing, but practice should be practice with the same plane, same field, same maneuvers).
With the Sim, the goal is to NEVER crash. As you get better, change the wind, change the sun, change the turbulence. Land from the other direction (or directions), etc.

Back before sims and buddy boxes, for people in their early 30's, I used to advise 3-5 flights per session, 2 times a week, for 1-4 months. Sims and buddy boxes can speed that up dramatically, if used frequently and well.
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baerster (05-23-2022)
Old 05-23-2022, 12:59 PM
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Thanks everyone! I started flying lessons at a local club last week (Marymoor RC) with a buddy box. I was humbled by how difficult it was for me to fly a Cub without any gyro stabilization. I have been flying park flyers with gyro and an Eflite Conscendo with SAFE, and those were reasonably easy for me, once I got used to how everything is reversed when the plane is heading toward me, etc. But I had developed some bad habits from flying with gyro and SAFE. Flying without them was - as the joke in the movie Airplane goes - "an entirely different kind of flying. Altogether." I started learning the benefits of very small stick movements and keeping the wings level when the gyro won't do it for me.

So I downloaded RealFlight 9.5 immediately after my first lesson (last week) and got the Spektrum dongle the next day, and have put maybe 7 hours into it. Tomorrow I will see how much it paid off - how will it go when I try an approach to final, for instance.
Old 05-23-2022, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by baerster View Post
Thanks everyone! I started flying lessons at a local club last week (Marymoor RC) with a buddy box. I was humbled by how difficult it was for me to fly a Cub without any gyro stabilization. I have been flying park flyers with gyro and an Eflite Conscendo with SAFE, and those were reasonably easy for me, once I got used to how everything is reversed when the plane is heading toward me, etc. But I had developed some bad habits from flying with gyro and SAFE. Flying without them was - as the joke in the movie Airplane goes - "an entirely different kind of flying. Altogether." I started learning the benefits of very small stick movements and keeping the wings level when the gyro won't do it for me.

So I downloaded RealFlight 9.5 immediately after my first lesson (last week) and got the Spektrum dongle the next day, and have put maybe 7 hours into it. Tomorrow I will see how much it paid off - how will it go when I try an approach to final, for instance.
Ask your instructor if the rates and the "expo: are right for you on your plane. Rates determine how much stick movement you have to give to make the airplane respond a given amount. Too much, and you need little tiny movements and are frequently over controlling. Too little, and the plane just won't respond to your movements very fast, which may be an issue in circumstances where you need that extra response. Expo (exponential) allows you to have a low response around neutral, but the further you move the stick, the proportionally greater it will be. Helpful, but it can be a bit of a balancing act to get it comfortable, as with too much, it can be easy to move the stick a bit too far, and the plane does a lot more than you intended. I usually dial it all down for beginners, but my radio allows one to change the settings while in flight, so I can adjust what the student is feeling in the air. But not all radios are that fancy.
Old 05-23-2022, 04:17 PM
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Took me maybe two months. But it varies a lot. When I was instructing, my club had a guy who took about two years to solo. I once taught a guy, a full-scale pilot who watched all his son's rc lessons while his son learned, who soloed on his second flight and probably could have done it on his first. Not surprisingly, it's usually faster with young people.
Old 06-01-2022, 07:17 AM
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I started building and flying control line and free flight airplanes in 1963 I flew my first rc in around 1973, No stabilization, no buddy box and nobody there except my younger brother and I, I put three flights on my little biplane and went home with no damage.

I learned a lot by flying both control line and free flight, especially free flight, simply because of learning to build straight and trimming them for flight.

Bob

Last edited by sensei; 06-01-2022 at 07:20 AM.
Old 06-01-2022, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by baerster View Post
How many hours of stick time (on an actual plane or with a simulator) did it take for you to be able to confidently taxi, takeoff, fly a pattern, and land with a trainer cub without any stability controls (SAFE, etc.)?

Proficiency, what an elusive word. You could go on forever attempting to describe proficiency and not cover all the bases. What you describe is take off, getting around the patch safely and under control and some sort of landing. Even with a cub style airplane you have so many options from a small foam UMX type model to a .40 to .60 or bigger trainer. You have to take into consideration the type/size of model, the field it's flown from, surrounding obstructions, number of other flyers in the air at the same time etc., etc.

The guy who flies by himself in his back 40 might hand launch and land in long wheat/hay etc. Proficient for his type of flying not so much for a club atmosphere.

The way I look at it is you need to take off, get around the patch safely and under control then land in a designated area with control. If you're flying in a club environment your fellow flyers must have sufficient trust in your abilities to operate safely and in control. Remember the learning curve will be different for everyone. It depends on many factors and one should not think of it as how fast can I fly on my own. Concentrate on learning to fly safely and under control at all times. Part of the goal is to have a fun day of flying and bringing home a model that doesn't need repairs. If you're joining a club they will probably have additional expectations and rules.

I can't tell you the times a new pilot will learn to fly inverted then attempt to do worm burner passes get in trouble and pull full up only to plant his model firmly in the ground. He wasn't ready for that type of flying, needed more practice at height and was not proficient enough to fly that manoeuvre. The only way to learn is to venture to the upper end of your comfort zone but do it at altitude, so you have a chance of recovery if things go wrong.

Another thing I see is a new pilot who just got their wings take off, bore holes in the sky then only considers setting up for a landing when he is running out of fuel and has to land. This all or nothing approach does not help to improve anything but your repair skill set. I will often spend most of my time practising landings and take-offs till I get them where I like them. I also practice recovering from upsets and engine outs from take off to at altitude. Watch how many lose and engine at height and either use up altitude and land short or stall/spin it in at the end of the runway or needlessly over fly the runway and land in the scrub at the other end of the runway.

Last edited by Propworn; 06-01-2022 at 09:54 AM.
Old 06-02-2022, 07:04 PM
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I know of pilots who flew most of their lives, now in their 80's and still somersault basic high wing trainers while landing. LOL.
Old 06-02-2022, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Frost View Post
I know of pilots who flew most of their lives, now in their 80's and still somersault basic high wing trainers while landing. LOL.
That is because they should be flying Taildraggers…

Bob
Old 06-02-2022, 10:55 PM
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Propworn
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Originally Posted by sensei View Post
That is because they should be flying Taildraggers…

Bob
See as many taildragers laying on their back with broken props and damaged tail feathers as anything else. In fact more ground loops than any other configuration.
Old 06-03-2022, 07:01 AM
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049flyer
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It depends a lot on the plane used for training.

To answer the question, I taught myself on a kit built 1/2A Ace Little Whizard with a Cox .049 with only rudder and elevator control. Only took about 3 flights at a park BUT I had extensive experience with years of control line flying and several thousand hours of full scale experience.

But as to the implied question of how long should it take to learn to fly, that depends on many things but I think the choice of aircraft is most important.

Some planes are very stable and will almost fly by themselves with minimal input from the pilot. Other less stable airplanes, make great aerobatic trainers but poor basic trainers requiring constant input from the pilot. Yet some folks prefer less stable planes for basic training because they think they can just learn it all with the same plane. Learning on the wrong plane is more difficult and will take longer.

Another often overlooked factor is durability. Most basic trainers are overbuilt and can easily withstand a minor mishap without damage. so the training that day can continue. Other trainers look cool or might be more aerobatic but are more fragile so a minor mishap ends the training session.

With the right trainer I can usually get someone to solo within 5 to 10 flights. Previous experience with a simulator, control line or free flight modeling or full scale flying will reduce that by 1/2. However, with the wrong aircraft used for training some folks give up and NEVER learn to fly.

Buy the right trainer, learn to fly in an afternoon and enjoy the hobby from that point forward OR buy the wrong plane and struggle for weeks.

My most successful trainer was a Balsa USA Stick Trainer, this is a stock photo (not my actual plane). Is it ugly? Heck yea! Is it durable? Double Heck yea! A plywood box screwed to a pair of hardwood rails is as simple as it gets, but it is an awesome flying trainer that can take a real beating and it’s really simple! I used to build them with 3 channels, no ailerons. I would buy the kit and build it in a weekend. All up cost with radio, plane, engine and covering was $200.

I taught many friends to fly usually in one afternoon and only a few flights.



Last edited by 049flyer; 06-04-2022 at 06:51 AM.
Old 06-04-2022, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 049flyer View Post
It depends a lot on the plane used for training.
Buy the right trainer, learn to fly in an afternoon and enjoy the hobby from that point forward OR buy the wrong plane and struggle for weeks.

My most successful trainer was a Balsa USA Stick Trainer, this is a stock photo (not my actual plane). Is it ugly? Heck yea! Is it durable? Double Heck yea! A plywood box screwed to a pair of hardwood rails is as simple as it gets, but it is an awesome flying trainer that can take a real beating and it’s really simple! I used to build them with 3 channels, no ailerons. I would buy the kit and build it in a weekend. All up cost with radio, plane, engine and covering was $200.

I taught many friends to fly usually in one afternoon and only a few flights.


I would agree with a lot of what you just posted. That said, there's a problem with learning to fly a plane that doesn't use ailerons:
The student doesn't learn to use the rudder or coordinate their turns.
This may not be an issue with many planes but there are aerobatic, 3D, scale and warbirds that REQUIRE the use of the rudder. Granted, even the Sig Kadet had versions that don't use ailerons, the Jr being one I'm familiar with. The instructions actually say to plug the rudder servo into the aileron slot so you get the "feel" of using ailerons. A high dihedral trainer, such as the Kadet or your stick trainer fly fine with that set up. Now, move on to a low wing aircraft, say an Astro Hog. It's not nearly as stable as the trainers so the pilot will be spending more time trying to keep the plane flying using the ailerons when they weren't taught that with said trainer. They were taught that the ailerons were used to "turn" the plane, not keep the plane upright or coordinate the turns like they are now trying to do. Just a thought to ponder
Old 06-04-2022, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I would agree with a lot of what you just posted. That said, there's a problem with learning to fly a plane that doesn't use ailerons:
The student doesn't learn to use the rudder or coordinate their turns.
This may not be an issue with many planes but there are aerobatic, 3D, scale and warbirds that REQUIRE the use of the rudder. Granted, even the Sig Kadet had versions that don't use ailerons, the Jr being one I'm familiar with. The instructions actually say to plug the rudder servo into the aileron slot so you get the "feel" of using ailerons. A high dihedral trainer, such as the Kadet or your stick trainer fly fine with that set up. Now, move on to a low wing aircraft, say an Astro Hog. It's not nearly as stable as the trainers so the pilot will be spending more time trying to keep the plane flying using the ailerons when they weren't taught that with said trainer. They were taught that the ailerons were used to "turn" the plane, not keep the plane upright or coordinate the turns like they are now trying to do. Just a thought to ponder
I don't know about that, better to leave the rudder where it is learn to fly rudder only. when you have ailerons you can teach yourself how to fly with them. Moving them to the aileron channel you will have to re-learn to stear all over with the rudder channel. I have practiced a lot learning to fly just about everything I have ever owned on rudder only. While test flying a buddies large biplane it stopped responding to ailerons luckily I was able to right it with rudder and gently guide it back to the field and get it safely on the ground. The servo arms had fallen off both aileron servos. Metal gear no locktite and failure to tighten the screws properly. I dont think switching channels is a good idea to many wrong things to unlearn.

Last edited by Propworn; 06-04-2022 at 05:41 PM.
Old 06-04-2022, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
I don't know about that, better to leave the rudder where it is learn to fly rudder only. when you have ailerons you can teach yourself how to fly with them. Moving them to the aileron channel you will have to re-learn to stear all over with the rudder channel. I have practiced a lot learning to fly just about everything I have ever owned on rudder only. While test flying a buddies large biplane it stopped responding to ailerons luckily I was able to right it with rudder and gently guide it back to the field and get it safely on the ground. The servo arms had fallen off both aileron servos. Metal gear no locktite and failure to tighten the screws properly. I dont think switching channels is a good idea to many wrong things to unlearn.
Thank you for helping make my point
But that is exactly what the instructions that came with my Kadet Jr tell you to do, for some strange reason. I don't know if that is the case with the "Stick" or not, would have to have 049flyer tell us on that but, as I see it, unless the planes you plan to fly are all going to be the same, using only certain channels, you are asking to have issues in the future. That is why, with the Kadet's I'm slowly building, they are five channel planes. I would rather build them to use one servo per surface, in addition to the throttle, than have serious issues later from cutting corners
Old 06-04-2022, 08:17 PM
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We have had computer radios for over 30 years now. Very easy to set up a mix on a 3 channel airplane so that both the rudder and aileron stick move the rudder. I’ve been doing this for years and taught my kids to fly this way, alternating them doing turns with both sticks. I do agree with everyone here that rudder is much more important then what some people think, much more then just coordinated turns which for some airplanes requiring rudder in turns is more of a setup issue then a technique issue. Brings me to the next topic and that would be the need to teach setup/trimming as part of flight training. Something I have virtually never seen. In fact 90% of members of any club are fighting out of trim airplanes. Regardless of the airplane type, CG adjustments, thrust angles, incidences, throws and expo settings are all things that can be adjusted to make the airplane easier to fly. Then we can get really nit picky and start tuning aileron differential, throttle curves, dual rates and maybe get into some mixing.
Old 06-04-2022, 09:20 PM
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I always set up 1, 2 and 3 channel planes so that the rudder is on the right stick. It’s much easier for beginners to learn that the right stick generally controls the airplane in normal flight.

It’s a case of less is more. The objective is to get the student to solo, so one less control seems simpler. Bring the ailerons into the program on the second plane. In the meantime the student can learn quite a lot with only 3 channels and have a great time doing so. And much sooner than he would with a 4 channel plane.

There was a time when most flew with only one channel and had fun doing so while learning a lot about trimming an airplane.

I still believe the fastest way to solo is by keeping things as simple as possible. Nothing fires up enthusiasm faster than being able to fly it yourself without the instructor.

By the way, I have NEVER had a student encounter problems transitioning from 3 channels of control to 4 channels. In fact I’ve noticed that many modelers that learn on 4 channel airplanes don’t have a clue about the usefulness and power of the rudder. Learn to fly with the rudder or suffer the consequences!

One of the maneuvers I like to see is hovering into the wind on the very edge of a stall while maintaining heading into the wind. The student will soon learn how ineffective the ailerons are, and the usefulness of the rudder. Comes in handy on a low altitude, low airspeed “go around”.


Last edited by 049flyer; 06-04-2022 at 09:35 PM.
Old 06-05-2022, 12:18 AM
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Havent seen a 3 channel trainer at the field in years some gliders but even with gliders except for RES most I see are at least 4 channel. Even most of the smaller foam versions are 4 channel. Kind of a moot point kind of like a single stik four channel transmitter.

Last edited by Propworn; 06-05-2022 at 12:20 AM.
Old 06-05-2022, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 049flyer View Post
I always set up 1, 2 and 3 channel planes so that the rudder is on the right stick. It’s much easier for beginners to learn that the right stick generally controls the airplane in normal flight.

It’s a case of less is more. The objective is to get the student to solo, so one less control seems simpler. Bring the ailerons into the program on the second plane. In the meantime the student can learn quite a lot with only 3 channels and have a great time doing so. And much sooner than he would with a 4 channel plane.

There was a time when most flew with only one channel and had fun doing so while learning a lot about trimming an airplane.

I still believe the fastest way to solo is by keeping things as simple as possible. Nothing fires up enthusiasm faster than being able to fly it yourself without the instructor.

By the way, I have NEVER had a student encounter problems transitioning from 3 channels of control to 4 channels. In fact I’ve noticed that many modelers that learn on 4 channel airplanes don’t have a clue about the usefulness and power of the rudder. Learn to fly with the rudder or suffer the consequences!

One of the maneuvers I like to see is hovering into the wind on the very edge of a stall while maintaining heading into the wind. The student will soon learn how ineffective the ailerons are, and the usefulness of the rudder. Comes in handy on a low altitude, low airspeed “go around”.

Letting a student solo and turning him/her loose too soon is a big problem as well. I agree that teaching your students the value of rudder control though. I however think that many times once a student is given their wings they tend to abandon structured flying and either learn advanced flying slowly or not at all. I’ll refer back to airplane setup again and use a recent test flight of a Super Sportster at one of my clubs as an example. This particular club member has been flying for over 20 years. He built the SS from a kit and did not measure anything ( incidences, thrust angles, surface deflection ). He did spend a fair amount of time adjusting the engine. Listening to him talk leading up to the maiden flight, he was not 100% sure of what to expect. Obviously he had a lack of information concerning of where his settings were and what influences they would have on the airplane once airborne. Typical take off under these types of conditions. The airplane headed for the left side of the runway, no rudder correction, pulled off the ground too soon and did the just above stall dance until some speed was built up. It was also quite obvious that the airplane was way out of trim and he eventually had his helper come over and push the trims for him. This individual is also one of the club instructors.

This sort of stuff happens quite frequently. Setup should be taught along with flight instruction but is not beyond simply making the control surfaces move the correct direction. Knowing exactly where your incidences are, your CG and thrust angles etc. will typically result in quite boring maiden flights, make the airplane easier to fly and as a student, accelerate the learning curve.
Old 06-05-2022, 09:34 AM
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One of the great things about this hobby is that much can be learned from just about any type of flying model. I’ve met folks at the field that could learn quite a bit from folding up a few paper airplanes!

I fly control line, RC power planes, and gliders too, I even enjoy a bit of single channel flying from time to time. I constantly learn new things from all of them. The simpler the aircraft the more important proper trimming becomes.

It’s all fun and I never get bored, even after 50 years of modeling.
Old 06-05-2022, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
See as many taildragers laying on their back with broken props and damaged tail feathers as anything else. In fact more ground loops than any other configuration.
Bla, bla, bla, hey rock star it was meant as a light hearted joke…

Bob
Old 06-06-2022, 02:29 AM
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Propworn
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Originally Posted by sensei View Post
Bla, bla, bla, hey rock star it was meant as a light hearted joke…

Bob
Ah like a fart ln a wind storm then all noise no substance.
Old 06-06-2022, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Ah like a fart ln a wind storm then all noise no substance.
Hey rockstar it’s okay to be itty bitty…

Bob
Old 06-06-2022, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sensei View Post
Hey rockstar it’s okay to be itty bitty…

Bob
Itty Bitty good lord I couldn't carry a tune in a 5 gallon pail LOL. I'd be ducking shoes like the cats on the fence. No talent for playing an instrument either good grief I'd starve if I had to sing or play for a living.

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