spog1

Wouldn't that mean that the electric vehicle would gain from a reduction in power, with additional gain from reduced weight?

supertib

Well it is definitely a double edge sword.... as I have seen where the LHS sells someone a product and is is completely unable to properly advise the customer, sells the customer some crappy fuel and glowplugs...customer goes out and has nothing but issues, after several futile attempts the customer ends up giving up and never looking at the RC Hobby again.........I have seen this hundreds of times over the years....... At least with electric a person has a fighting chance to enjoy the hobby, and more often then not a person will want to upgrade to nitro......As a track owner we have seen many guys start with electric short course and end up graduating up to 1/8th nitro................ Nitro is cooler then electric, most men love a internal combustion engine, and even if they start into electric, they will likely end up giving nitro a try.......

RTR nitro's are a very poor example of what a nitro is capable of...

FuelCoupe

Nothing wrong with Traxxas, like all brands they have there flaws but they have there good points too, I have also read a lot that contradicts my own experience with them too. I bought my VXL at the same time another guy bought an MT4, I took the traxxas out and had fun, the other guy took his MT4 out ran once  and spent the next several hours rebuilding it as the screws all started falling out, two weeks later and he blew the speed control,my idea of a good car is one that doesnt break easy and goes well, the other guys idea of a better car is out right power, despite reading many people having problems with the MT4 falling apart out of the box many claim its the best. I guess it comes down to what points you base a good car on.

FuelCoupe

Yes a less powerfull electric could be faster then a more powerfull nitro, for example nitro drag cars making around 8000hp slip the clutch for half the trck to reduce the amount of power to the wheels, letting loose that much power at once is just going to result in wheel spin. Nitro rc is simular in that it makes the most power at a certain rev range meaning untill the motor revs up it isnt making full power or torque, even going full throttle at the hit with a nitro does not deliver full power straight away an electric does.

supertib

its all about weight....nitro still has vastly superior power density.......... as well a high end nitro .21 is actually faster then the competition 4S BL systems...........has a slightly smoother bottom with a much better top end....Of course a high end competition nitro is vastly different then the RTR nitro's that most would see in the off the shelf kits.......the performance difference is like night and day

JohnP2

I'm not confident I agree with this statement, either. Noise generally annoys the public. I see and hear way too many lawnmowers and such being run before anyone with nitro cars. Most folks that runnitro are very courteousand do so in a way that does not irritate others.

in fact, during that time that most nitro cars are run, people usually levitate to them as they enjoy seeing and hearing it.

JohnP2

Neal, keep doing what you are doing. As a LHS owner, I think it's great you are a nitro guy. You obviously have more influence than a lot of us on this, so keep converting them. I'm all about anything we can do to keep nitro thriving in "the hobby" ;-)

JoeMaxx

Personally I like to run both Nitros and Electrics. Love the sound and smell of nitro and they are still my favorite But also love the run times of my newer Brushless Motor Conversions I did on my Older R/Cs and the speed they produce. I parked them for years because the Brushed Motors wore out after a summer of playtime. It got expensive replacing the motors on 4 R/Cs every year so they got parked until this past year. I upgraded them all to brushless motors. Very happy with the conversion because I get up to 30 to 40 minutes of runtime on a LiPo 5000 40c battery packs and speed was doubled with running 3900Kv motors.

Nitros have always been my favorite and always will be. I love the smell of nitro and love spending time tuning the engines to run for the day.


For me there is no argument I suggest everyone have both and experience this hobby to the fullest your budget will allow.

In my experience with RTRs Nitros are cheaper up front to get up and running than Electrics with Brushless motor are more expensive to buy into. The Brushed motor R/Cs is starting to go into Legacy. While many R/C manufactures still sell them the performance motors are no longer available.

Nitros on the down side require daily mainteance when you run them. After run procedure for me running 2 to 3 nitros is almost an hour of clean up and after run maintained so you have to be dedicated to your R/C. Clean the Air Filter, Run Marvel Mystery Oil into the engine, or spray WD40 down into the carb. Then turn it over a few times

My Lipo Pack Electrics also require After Run where I balance andrecharge my battery packs after I am done that day than I just have to blow the dust off my R/C with my air compressor . I do not leave my Lipo Battery packs in a drained state and to the off before I run again. My NiMH cells same thing I charge them again and then top them off the next time. NiMH Cells after sitting for a few weeks I will cycle them once to get a full charge again to freshen them up. Mainly receiver packs and Glow Plug Igniters for my Nitros these days since all my Electrics have been converted to LiPo and Brushless motors.

We are in a transition time where I suggest if you are going to get a new Electric R/C spend the extra money and go Brushless with LiPo Battery packs and buy a proper charger. It will cost a bunch up front but it is worth it in the end.

Nitros it comes down to fuel cost every year and I do not mind keeping up with it. My budget is larger than others for my toys.

Nitros will always rule in my book and I love them both <o></o>

supertib

I believe the progress we have seen with brush less will do more positive for nitro then it will hurt nitro............ I think it is awesome that BL has progressed to where it is now, as I look at the BL machines as a proper stepping stone for people to get into nitro....a person starting the hobby with electric is far more likely to become hooked then a person starting with a RTR level nitro........And make no mistake about it, almost every guy likes a gas burning engine and sooner or later every person who starts with electric is bound to try a nitro...and the chances of success are greatly increased if a person starts out with electric............. the guys saying electric is going to kill nitro are just talking silly talk, as that is the opposite of what we are already seeing

Rob2160

i agree it was stupid, but tell that to an aircraft obsessed 13 year old who worked weekends for a year to save up for his firstradio and plane...

Maybe it wasn't a good example, but in those days I remember other pilots at the club used to run their engines full power just feet away from themselves while turning and tweaking.. It can't be good for you...

Rob2160

Then you are very lucky, but I do live in a neighourhood so electric works for me.

Rob2160

Nitro can make smoke trails better.. But I always thought that looked silly anyway..

t-max97

My Feedback: (9)

Lol I completely understand why you did it, I probably would have too lol. When Im tuning my planes or whatever right next to me at wot its really not that loud and being in an open area helps lol it's also not for extended times.

Rob2160

Also agree with ejc34710, but its easy why some people don't understand that, it is because the world is full of Bigots.

Definition of Bigot - "a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own"

There is no right or wrong, personal preference isa personal choice.. Variety is a good thing.. I like Blondes, some people like Brunettes... whats the problem???

t-max97

My Feedback: (9)

I'm going to have to start calling people that lol.

Rob2160

Yes, I should have been more specific.. you are right, most nitro users are very courteous and respectful not to annoy others.. I wasbasing it on my experiences wheni used to fly Nitro planes at a local park as a teenager and I'd get yelled at regularly by nearby residents. ...

Now I fly at a park surrounded by houses, and instead of the abuse I remember as a teenager, the neighbours love to come and watch.. so its a nice change for me..

One little old lady used to come and watch every day because she said it made her feel young again...

This little aircraft never annoyed anyone.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEIdMhTzPrc

phmaximus

hows this.... ive never stated my oppion on what I think is best..... think about it, . Read into it how u want.re read if u have to.
I just said brushless is best, but that is from comparing stastics from nitro to brushless

wanna know what I like the most and will allways recommend......................................... .................................................. . 1/5 gas IMO it the best

deep, deep, deep down comparing figures to each other, I would say brushless is on top, then nitro then gas.... sad but true
even tho my favorite is the under dog, it still tickles my fancy

just to summerise....
IMO gas is the best...
but stastically brushless is best

I think supertib touched on a very good point, there is a huge difference from RTR engines to racing engines
where the racing brushless combos are not really faster just more reliable than the RTR combos

from what i understand is brushless 1/10 touring cars are pulling faster laps then there nitro equlivent
where in the 1/8 scene they are more clostly matched.
I will say tho, Nitro IMO deliver more pratical torque, where some brushless combos are just over the top and have way to much torque down low.... way to much (how cool are the 360 backflips from a standstill and it lands on the wheels)

FuelCoupe

What actually constitutes better or best ? Is there even an answer that isnt based on personal opinion? 

phmaximus

so ur telling me you cant compare 2 items for the same purpose statistically based on facts to determine which one will prevail
because it will be only a oppinion??? sorry bud I Disagree, there so many examples of things like this. they call it independent comparisons

for that to be effective there need to be a goal for the testing. ie. best "what"?

here is some silly analogies
RPM suspension arms are stronger than the stock traxxas ones.... is that fact or oppinion?does that make the RPM arms the best/strongest out of the 2?
HobbyWing ESC are more reliable than the clone Hobbyking ones.... fact or oppinion? is the best one to get the Hobbywing ESC
in general brushless motors deliver more power than there brushed equivalent....
its cheaper to run an electric car compared to nitro (not including maintance)...
nitro engine in general have a better power to weight raito than a gas engine...
1/10 EP touring cars are noticeable faster on a touring car track compared to a 1/10 IC touring car...

dont get to focused on the analogies its just food for thought

mattster1971

Hyper 7 is an rtr and it is off the hook straight out of the box.

larryak

My Feedback: (32)

Well said. We passed up buying a home because a guy ran his nitro car up and down the street in front. "day and night when he's home from work". I don,t hate nitro, in fact I fly it every day at the club.

t-max97

My Feedback: (9)

Your going to base these "facts" on your own personal opinions, just as you did when you scored each one, one of your "facts" that make one better than the other might not be a "fact" for me. Remember I'm not arguing that nitro is better, because it's not, People that run nitro run it because they see more positives than electric, those that run electric see more positives than nitro, you run electrics for a reason, whatever those are electric fits you better, but it doesn't everyone, haven't you only ever had a couple nitro's? Yet you have some very strong opinions on them.

Foxy

t-max, you're right in some ways, but empirically, it is a fact that brushless is faster. Therefore, for a hobbysit who cares only about performance, brushless is 'better'. On the other hand, nitro is more realistic with engine sound and fuel burning, therefore, to someone who is all about the realism, nitro is 'better'.

A fact is a fact by definition, it is empirical, quantifiable, and provable.

Carbon fiber is lighter and stronger than plastic, but more brittle - fact (stronger, lighter and more brittle are all measurable using scientific method).
Nitro is smelly and noisy - opinion (since both smelly and noisy are subjective, not empirical).

I see what you're saying, and some are facts, some are opinion. those items which are easily classified as facts, are indeed indisputable by a logical mind.

t-max97

My Feedback: (9)

No that's exactly what I mean't, brushless is typically faster so for ph that's a fact why electric is better, well I hardly have enough room for my truggy as is I dont think it needs any more power. To some people the engine sound and smoke or whatever is a fact on why nitro is better but that comes down to personal opinion and you cant make that judgement for everyone else like ph Is trying to do.

helotaxi

There's a lot more to it than that. The power curve of an electric is very linear, power, not torque. It makes peak torque at zero RPM, but it also draws maximum amperage at that point as well. Because of the relationship between torque and RPM of the electric, managing the power delivery is more difficult with electric regardless of total power. The other issue is that depending on the track, to have to deal in some serious tradeoffs in the electric with regard to gearing. If the track has long straights, you want to gear fairly tall to get more speed in the straights, but that comes at the cost of running lower motor RPM and thus drawing more current in the tighter parts. The end result is that you draw a lot of current from the battery and dump a lot of heat into the motor and the ESC during those parts of the course. Since you spend most of the lap time in the tighter portions, you really have to gear for them, not the straights. The end result is that the power hits REALLY hard in the tight portions of the track and the speed tops out early on the longer straights. This is the price that has to be paid to keep from smoking the motor and ESC.

Nitro on the other hand allows you to gear such that the car's speed tops out about 2/3 the way down the straight while still having control and adequate acceleration in the tighter portions. The power is more controllable because of the slipping of the clutch and you can decouple the engine from drivetrain via the clutch. This can make things a bit more forgiving when jumping.

Here's how it worked out for me when I was racing a good bit (1/10 touring car): On a tight technical track, electric was the only way to go. You simply couldn't carry enough speed through the switchbacks and chicanes with a nitro car to overcome the better acceleration of the electrics. On a larger, more open track, the nitro cars turned much faster laps. Given this was before LiPos and brushless were around, but the fact remains that both have their strong points and racing conditions under which they excel. LiPos and brushless haven't changed that fact. I had a blast racing both and typically raced in both classes on the same day when possible. I found that startup costs were considerably higher with electric between the charger and power supply and need for multiple battery packs to get through a race day. It also typically required more prep ahead of time since all the batteries had to be charged the night before and then topped off before the race. Nitro had continuous operating costs in the form of fuel, but I could charge the receiver pack the night before a race and it would last all day and with a good engine, tuning requirements were minimal to non-existent after initial break-in and tuning. Clean-up was little more than hitting it with some "nitro-blaster" at the end of the day. That said, getting the nitro cars out seemed like more of an endeavor thanks to the need for a starter box and a glow ignitor.

In the end, you can really only state empirically that one is better than the other when you include the specific application. For flight, nitro is "neat" but I don't think that I would go that route were I to get into aviation R/C. With current battery and motor technology, small to medium scale flight is a much better match to electric than nitro. Inertia and driveline shock aren't an issue, you don't have to worry about dumping huge amounts of current through a system to spin a prop or rotor up from extremely low RPM and the weight of the vehicle isn't a as much of a factor on current requirements. For surface applications, electric makes sense for smaller scales and is really the only feasible solution for mini and micro cars. The light weight of these cars and trucks don't shock load the driveline like larger, heavier models do and durability with the huge amounts of available torque from an electric system aren't as big an issue. As vehicle weight increases, though, electric becomes less and less practical. The drivetrain simply gets overwhelmed by the torque and the problems don't end there. Straightline speed is one thing, and actually where electric excels, but when you need a good balance of acceleration and speed with a heavy model, the combination of high current demands limits of drivetrain durability limit the practicality of the theoretically superior electric power. On paper, the electric system is going to be superior, better torque and power, but once you apply context and the circumstances under which you are applying that power and torque, the practical shortcomings come to light. As such, I'll stick with electric for my minis and for tight, indoor tracks and nitro for the bigger stuff and the wide open tracks.