Notices
RC Fuels Nitromethane, Castor Oil, Synthetic, heli fuel, 4 stroke, etc...Fuel Q&A is here!

Fuel Test Lab

Old 03-24-2009, 01:06 AM
  #1  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Fuel Test Lab

There are many test labs that perform oil analysis of various oils as to performance versus specifications and constituent content % or PPM etc.

Does anyone know of a lab that can test fuel for % makeup?
Old 03-24-2009, 10:48 AM
  #2  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

I learned that there are contract fuel test labs. I sent inquiries to a few to see if they would determine % oil of a nitro methane model engine fuel. TBC
Old 04-01-2009, 10:05 PM
  #3  
w8ye
My Feedback: (16)
 
w8ye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Shelby, OH
Posts: 37,576
Received 9 Likes on 9 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

For you as an individual hobbiest I doubt you will find the cost attractive
Old 04-02-2009, 12:39 AM
  #4  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: w8ye

For you as an individual hobbiest I doubt you will find the cost attractive

You are so right. it was $200 at one and $300 at another. However the one lab scientist took pitty on me and suggested a method I could use myself. It was still complicated but got me thinking. So I devised my own method.

See attached picture. I filled a 50 ml Borosilicate (Pyrex TM) graduated cylinder ($10 on Amazon.com) with Odonnell 20% nitro Car Fuel at room temperature. I heated it over night (in a well ventilated garage) with a 150 watt spot lamp and reflective aluminum foil make shift oven. Nitro methane has a boiling point of 217F so it flashes off quick. The remaining oil measured at 7.25 to 7.5 ml at room temperature so the % oil in the fuel was from 14.5% to 15%. I can now add the necessary additional castor oil to give the 18% desired for boat fuel. Maybe 20% for engine break in.

The reason for all of this is that I can only get car fuel in my area and I need boat fuel but Odonnell refuses to say what the % oil was in their Car fuel so that I could adjust it to be suitable for my boat engine. Well [:'(] to Odonnell


Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Yw66458.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	73.6 KB
ID:	1171051  
Old 04-02-2009, 10:04 AM
  #5  
w8ye
My Feedback: (16)
 
w8ye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Shelby, OH
Posts: 37,576
Received 9 Likes on 9 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

Rageman, good job. Now we know O'Donnell's secret. Hey everyone, look what we know?
Old 04-02-2009, 10:12 AM
  #6  
wcmorrison
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Weatherford, TX
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

You should be able to ask for an Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). OSHA requires that they give you one - that is the law! Hiding behind a special mixture, proprietary receipe, etc. is not an excuse. If they do not cooperate, send a message to OSHA requesting assistance. The tree huggers will assist you in beating one out of them, especially if they sell the stuff across state lines (becomes a federal issue for sure). The big time fuel guys will always issue one to you.

Cheers,

Chip
Old 04-02-2009, 10:33 AM
  #7  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: wcmorrison

You should be able to ask for an Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). OSHA requires that they give you one - that is the law! Hiding behind a special mixture, proprietary receipe, etc. is not an excuse. If they do not cooperate, send a message to OSHA requesting assistance. The tree huggers will assist you in beating one out of them, especially if they sell the stuff across state lines (becomes a federal issue for sure). The big time fuel guys will always issue one to you.

Cheers,

Chip
They are only required by law to report in the MSDS the presence of anything in their product that is listed as hazardous and approximate quantity. Therefore they can still avoid disclosing the exact percent content if the item is hazardous and not mention anything that is not listed as hazardous. The nitro and methanol is probably on the hazard list but the oil may not be a listed hazardous item. A big enough loop hole to dodge that bullet.
Old 04-02-2009, 03:46 PM
  #8  
balsaeater
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: p, ANDORRA
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: rageman


ORIGINAL: wcmorrison

You should be able to ask for an Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). OSHA requires that they give you one - that is the law! Hiding behind a special mixture, proprietary receipe, etc. is not an excuse. If they do not cooperate, send a message to OSHA requesting assistance. The tree huggers will assist you in beating one out of them, especially if they sell the stuff across state lines (becomes a federal issue for sure). The big time fuel guys will always issue one to you.

Cheers,

Chip
They are only required by law to report in the MSDS the presence of anything in their product that is listed as hazardous and approximate quantity. Therefore they can still avoid disclosing the exact percent content if the item is hazardous and not mention anything that is not listed as hazardous. The nitro and methanol is probably on the hazard list but the oil may not be a listed hazardous item. A big enough loop hole to dodge that bullet.
Methanol hazardouz Nitro hazardouz???

Duh methanol =~62% and Nitro =~20% therefore I suspect oil is ~18%

or did I miss something

balsaeater
Old 04-02-2009, 05:27 PM
  #9  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: balsaeater


ORIGINAL: rageman


ORIGINAL: wcmorrison

You should be able to ask for an Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). OSHA requires that they give you one - that is the law! Hiding behind a special mixture, proprietary receipe, etc. is not an excuse. If they do not cooperate, send a message to OSHA requesting assistance. The tree huggers will assist you in beating one out of them, especially if they sell the stuff across state lines (becomes a federal issue for sure). The big time fuel guys will always issue one to you.

Cheers,

Chip
They are only required by law to report in the MSDS the presence of anything in their product that is listed as hazardous and approximate quantity. Therefore they can still avoid disclosing the exact percent content if the item is hazardous and not mention anything that is not listed as hazardous. The nitro and methanol is probably on the hazard list but the oil may not be a listed hazardous item. A big enough loop hole to dodge that bullet.
Methanol hazardouz Nitro hazardouz???

Duh methanol =~62% and Nitro =~20% therefore I suspect oil is ~18%

or did I miss something

balsaeater

Where exactly did you come up with the 62% methanol value?
Old 04-03-2009, 07:52 AM
  #10  
Sport_Pilot
 
Sport_Pilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 16,916
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

MDDS sheets are only required for sell for commercial or industry use, not consumers. You won't find MSDS sheets for many products in the grocery store, unless they also sell in volume for industrial or commercial use.
Old 04-03-2009, 11:42 AM
  #11  
balsaeater
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: p, ANDORRA
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab



62% is just an example could have been 65% or 70% whatever .
eg. model fuel equals methanol nitro and oil .If you know the values of methanol and nitro then QED. you know the oil content or x+y+z=100%

Balsaeater
Old 04-03-2009, 10:44 PM
  #12  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: balsaeater



62% is just an example could have been 65% or 70% whatever .
eg. model fuel equals methanol nitro and oil .If you know the values of methanol and nitro then QED. you know the oil content or x+y+z=100%

Balsaeater

Exactly. The basic premis for solving an equation is that there can only be one unknown. A single equation with two unknowns is unsolvable. Consequently your equation would need the exact % methanol and the exact % nitro to solve for the exact % oil. However only the % nitro is posted on Odonnell fuel. Consequently the % oil is not solvable because the % methane is unknown. A guess is worthless.
Old 04-04-2009, 08:38 AM
  #13  
w8ye
My Feedback: (16)
 
w8ye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Shelby, OH
Posts: 37,576
Received 9 Likes on 9 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

Rageman, you did get it down to one unknown . . . .

You knew what the Nitro was from the start as it was stated on the jug

You boiled away the nitro and methanol to find there was 14% oil

Subtract the oil and the nitro from the total and you have the methanol
Old 04-04-2009, 08:52 AM
  #14  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: w8ye

Rageman, you did get it down to one unknown . . . .

You knew what the Nitro was from the start as it was stated on the jug

You boiled away the nitro and methanol to find there was 14% oil

Subtract the oil and the nitro from the total and you have the methanol

Yes I know that. I was mearly disagreeing with post #10 where it was proposed that the oil content could be calculated since the exact % nitro and the exact % methane is known (without testing a sample)...somehow from the manufacturer(not true)?... from the MSDS sheet (not true)?...from other unknown source?
Old 04-04-2009, 09:52 PM
  #15  
downunder
 
downunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 4,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

Rageman
I've done something similar except I used a medicine glass which, because it's tapered, expands out the graduations near the bottom so you can read them more accurately. Also I just left mine to sit so it took a few days to evaporate away. Actually I think I let it sit for about a week so your way is much faster .
Old 04-04-2009, 10:53 PM
  #16  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: downunder

Rageman
I've done something similar except I used a medicine glass which, because it's tapered, expands out the graduations near the bottom so you can read them more accurately. Also I just left mine to sit so it took a few days to evaporate away. Actually I think I let it sit for about a week so your way is much faster .
Very interesting. I wish I had such a medicine glass. I did not know such existed.....no surprise since I am not a chemist. What fuel was it and what were your results?

I thought about letting it sit at ambient but was not sure how much water might be absorbed by the methanol (since it is so hydroscopic) that might distort the results so I went with the spot lamp to keep things hot.
Old 04-05-2009, 09:54 AM
  #17  
downunder
 
downunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 4,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

A medicine glass is just one of those measuring cups that mum's use for the kid's cough syrup. Usually they're just plastic so I don't know how much heating they can withstand.
Old 04-05-2009, 12:42 PM
  #18  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: downunder

A medicine glass is just one of those measuring cups that mum's use for the kid's cough syrup. Usually they're just plastic so I don't know how much heating they can withstand.
I wonder if they have those here.

What fuel was it you tested and what were your results?
Old 04-05-2009, 04:40 PM
  #19  
controlliner
 
controlliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: rageman


ORIGINAL: balsaeater


ORIGINAL: rageman


ORIGINAL: wcmorrison

You should be able to ask for an Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). OSHA requires that they give you one - that is the law! Hiding behind a special mixture, proprietary receipe, etc. is not an excuse. If they do not cooperate, send a message to OSHA requesting assistance. The tree huggers will assist you in beating one out of them, especially if they sell the stuff across state lines (becomes a federal issue for sure). The big time fuel guys will always issue one to you.

Cheers,

Chip
They are only required by law to report in the MSDS the presence of anything in their product that is listed as hazardous and approximate quantity. Therefore they can still avoid disclosing the exact percent content if the item is hazardous and not mention anything that is not listed as hazardous. The nitro and methanol is probably on the hazard list but the oil may not be a listed hazardous item. A big enough loop hole to dodge that bullet.
Methanol hazardouz Nitro hazardouz???

Duh methanol =~62% and Nitro =~20% therefore I suspect oil is ~18%

or did I miss something

balsaeater

Where exactly did you come up with the 62% methanol value?
I assume you do know that MSDS states that Methanol is a carcinogen.[sm=crying.gif]
Old 04-05-2009, 06:33 PM
  #20  
rageman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BALLWIN, MO
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

I guess I did not read the MSDS beyond[sm=72_72.gif] the "if you drink it you die" part.
Old 04-05-2009, 11:50 PM
  #21  
w8ye
My Feedback: (16)
 
w8ye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Shelby, OH
Posts: 37,576
Received 9 Likes on 9 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab


ORIGINAL: controlliner


ORIGINAL: rageman


ORIGINAL: balsaeater


ORIGINAL: rageman


ORIGINAL: wcmorrison

You should be able to ask for an Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). OSHA requires that they give you one - that is the law! Hiding behind a special mixture, proprietary receipe, etc. is not an excuse. If they do not cooperate, send a message to OSHA requesting assistance. The tree huggers will assist you in beating one out of them, especially if they sell the stuff across state lines (becomes a federal issue for sure). The big time fuel guys will always issue one to you.

Cheers,

Chip
They are only required by law to report in the MSDS the presence of anything in their product that is listed as hazardous and approximate quantity. Therefore they can still avoid disclosing the exact percent content if the item is hazardous and not mention anything that is not listed as hazardous. The nitro and methanol is probably on the hazard list but the oil may not be a listed hazardous item. A big enough loop hole to dodge that bullet.
Methanol hazardouz Nitro hazardouz???

Duh methanol =~62% and Nitro =~20% therefore I suspect oil is ~18%

or did I miss something

balsaeater

Where exactly did you come up with the 62% methanol value?
I assume you do know that MSDS states that Methanol is a carcinogen.[sm=crying.gif]
Methanol is not a carcinogen
It is very poisonous though
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm
CAS# 67-56-1: Not listed by ACGIH, IARC, NIOSH, NTP, or OSHA.
Old 04-19-2009, 07:32 PM
  #22  
Lost Glider
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Blaine, MN
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Fuel Test Lab

[/quote] rageman
See attached picture. I filled a 50 ml Borosilicate (Pyrex TM) graduated cylinder ($10 on Amazon.com) with Odonnell 20% nitro Car Fuel at room temperature. I heated it over night (in a well ventilated garage) with a 150 watt spot lamp and reflective aluminum foil make shift oven. Nitro methane has a boiling point of 217F so it flashes off quick. The remaining oil measured at 7.25 to 7.5 ml at room temperature so the % oil in the fuel was from 14.5% to 15%. I can now add the necessary additional castor oil to give the 18% desired for boat fuel. Maybe 20% for engine break in.




I thought I had read somewhere that castor oil will separate from the other components when it gets to cold. So how about trying another test with your graduated cylinder? Fill your cylinder up and try to seal off the top, stick it in the freezer for a day or two and see what shows up on the bottom. I am curious to know if the castor oil will separate from synthetic oil.

Randy

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.