E85
 

Have heard of E85 auto fuel sold in various states. Am curious as to the ratio of gas to ethanol. I just assumed it was 15% ethanol, but have seen other posting that say it's 15% gas. Anyone know for sure? Thanks , red

RE: E85
 

Well I'll be darned...I would have sworn E85 meant 85% petrol but not according to this web site.
http://www.co.hennepin.mn.us/vgn/por...326437,00.html

RE: E85
 

Thanks for the reply. Did a Google and found lots of info. Certainly seems like a good idea. Iowa report , states we produce two billion gallons of it a year, and you can drink it :o) Good luck, red

RE: E85
 

Indeed E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline and some guys here in Sweden run 2S glow engines on E85 with good results. I used it myself recently to run my Saito.72 with acceptable result provided that the on-board glow was lit all the time(no nitro off course) High speed needle was screwed in 1/4 of a turn and power seemed to be about the same as with methanol. Although it was a cool night I could not detect any tendency to overheating of the engine. Used 22% oil (11% ML70 + 11% castor) but still the engine smoked much less than with 18% oil in methanol.
According to experts here the E85 fuel must be handled with care since the vapours are very EXPLOSIVE, much more so than with pure gas where the head space vapour is saturated. Still an interesting alternative since E85 price is about half of methanol (Sweden)and with less consumption fuel cost will only be a fraction of that of methanol with nitro....:)... But please be careful out there...:(....Cheers/Harald

RE: E85
 

e85 in my area is about $1.00 cheaper then regular old 87/89 octane gasoline, it would be great to burn it!

RE: E85
 

Damn, you guy really beat me to this one. I just found out about this E85 stuff, and was excited about being the first person to suggest running it in a glow engine. We need to get some more reports on how this stuff runs in our engines.

RE: E85
 

There was some website I went to last week that had the list of E85 compatible vehicles. There was currently only 10-15 cars,but they say more to come.

RE: E85
 

E85 Ethanol 85% > Got it?

RE: E85
 

Poppy Cock. It is less explosive than gasoline. Also less energy.

RE: E85
 

Sport Pilot: whatever "Poppy Cock" means - fact is that E85 vapour is explosive at normal ambient temperatures which gas and diesel vapours are NOT...Regards/Harald

RE: E85
 

Ok we have two statements which are diametrically opposite. Can someone give some documentation to support either statement? Given the extensive experience with E85 in Sweden, and not knowing any better, we should pay attention. However, still need documentation. I have looked around some and not come up with anything.

RE: E85
 

OK, from a very quick google search..
Ethanol has a flash point of 17C (62.6F) with an autoignition point of 425C (797F).
Gasoline has a flash point of 45C (113F) and autoignition of 246C (475F).

Flash point just means that any vapours above the liquid will burn away (if ignited) but not cause a continuous fire.

RE: E85
 

Actual data!:D What does it all mean? I suppose that vapor from E85 would flash at a lower temperature than pure gasoline vapor and would heat the gasoline part of the vapor up to autoignition. So E85 vapor might in fact be prone to ignite at a lower temperature than pure gasoline vapor. Is there like a eutectic mixture of vapors, I wonder? I have no ego stake in this, so flame:eek: away.

RE: E85
 

Sure thing, here is one of my sources but unfortunately it is in swedish, I have not yet found this clearly explained in english. Sport Pilot (and downunder) are correct if you only talk about pure ethanol but apparently it is the E85 mixture which is problematic. So much so that a special "flame lock" should be installed in swedish fuel station equipments for pumping E85. This is to prevent a fire to travel down into the E85 cistern.
http://www.srv.se/templates/SRV_Page____14874.aspx
A warning is also given that an E85 fire is harder to quench than a "regular" gas...:D...fire is but the exact reason is not given.
Hope this helps guys and BTW I have now milled the crankcases of one Saito.56(-1.0mm) and one Saito.72(-0.5mm) to make them more 0%nitro and/or E85 compatible. Aiming for a compression ratio of about 13/1...waddayathink downunder..??......Cheers/Harald

PS..found a reference in a swedish source to "SAE Technical Papers Series 950401" but I was not authorised to download it myself...[:@]...maybe someone else out there can help...DS

RE: E85
 

The E85 cars can actually run on 100% Ethanol.
The reason they add 15% gasoline to it is for starting purposes. Pure Ethanol is hard to start in the cold weather. (You guys in Sweden should know this!).

In Venesualla, all of the cars run on 100% Ethanol. (It's hot down there!)



Ethanol is 100 octane but it is true it does have less energy, gal per gal ( or Liter per Liter ). so gas milage with E85 will be lower than pure gasoline. Depending upon where you are in the world, prices for E85 may be the same or a little lower than regular gas. However, you need to consider the reduced milage.
The advantage is that it reduces the amount of oil that is imported and supports local farmers.

I don't know why an E85 fire would be so different that gas. In fact, you can put out and alcohol fire out with plain water! It is much more safer that regular gas.

RE: E85
 

Okay, here's the plan I've been toying with for the last few weeks. 85 percent denatured alchol (denatured alcohol is mostly ethanol with some methanol mixed in to make it poison) plus 15 percent Ozark Trail camp fuel (about 55 octane I think) to produce "HomE85." Hopefully there will be enough methanol to help sustain glow. I fly mostly unthrottled controlline so if it can sustain glow at WOT thats good enough. Because of higher energy per unit, mixture should be much leaner so I anticipate needing more lubrcant per ounce of fuel. I think I could mix my "HomE85" with 30 percent castor to produce 1/2a fuel -- a little less oil for some larger engines. What do you guys think?

On another subject, learning that most engine starting fluid contains a good percentage of heptane instead of being pure ether has me wondering if some percent of lower octane gasoline could be substituted for ether in homebrew model diesel fuel?

RE: E85
 

Ithinkit'dbe just about right for methanol :) but I'm not so sure if you used the E85 because ethanol won't tolerate as high a compression as methanol although I'm not sure quite what it'll handle. But it's simply a matter of experimenting with shims to raise or lower the cylinder to change the compression.

Wayne...I'd definitely start with the 30% castor for the reason you mentioned. It's the rate of oil flow through the engine that's important and not the total oil in the fuel. I found that out when I got an ST G51 for CL stunt. It overheated on 20% all castor and had me stumped until I realised I was only using about 60cc of fuel for a 6 minute flight. I upped the oil to 25% and the engine was transformed...absolutely rock steady :)

There's a fair chance that the engine will keep running on that fuel because there's a guy in South Africa who uses model diesel fuel in his glow engine for stunt. He starts it with the glow powered up then lets the engine run for about 30 seconds to fully heat up then disconnects the power.

RE: E85
 

I've seen one of the South African guys fly a glow engine on model diesel fuel at one of the Vintage Stunt Contests in Tucson. I've also ran a couple of K&B 4011's on Davis 1/2A fuel on the bench, as you described. One ran fine after short glowplug warm up. The other needed the battery connected else it would uncercompress. Different thickness head shims I think.

RE: E85
 

Hi downunder, many thanks for your comments, the reason I tried E85 was pure curiosity and inspiration by many 2S users "up here" in Sweden who use it with success. But basically I milled the Saito cases to get rid of the nitro and/or the OBGD on methanol fuel.
Another drawback with E85 (apart from safety) is the unpleasant smell...[:'(]...having the stuff in the back of your car or in the shop - always eager NOT to unnecessarily disturb my "government"....:D...you know.!
But you say that ethanol will not tolerate the same (high) compression as methanol and I wonder why because according to my books they have almost identical octane numbers..!?!? OK, the 15% gas part will lower it but very, very little so I wonder if you can elaborate a bit on that remark....thanks.
Wayne_C, I think you are right to add more oil since your needle setting will become leaner and people here say that their 2S engines run hotter on E85....Castor oil.?..absolutely...:D...I just love them beans...!
Jim, yes your "eutectic parable" seems most fitting, it appears the E85 mixture has a wider temperature interval within which it is explosive as compared to its pure components.

Cheers/Harald

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altfuel/whatis_eth.html

(see the 116KB pdf file at the bottom)

RE: E85
 

Heres the deal ,GM has the most cars that run on E85. Ethanol has been run in RC engines but is more expensive and doesn't work as well as methanol. Ethanol 's price is subsidized by the goverment for now. E85 is more dangerous. It takes less temp to ignite it and have you ever seen a race driver on fire with alcohol, thats the problem you don't see the flames during the daylight. The 15% gas will make it a little more visable flame.

RE: E85
 

Downunder,
I don't know where you get your information but gasoline's flash point is -20 degrees F which I believe is about -29 degrees C. I think you quoted the flash point of diesel fuel. The only thing more dangerous about ethanol is that it burns with so little energy, the flame is so dim that you cannot see it during the day. Not much brighter in indoor lighting, only when the lights are dim is it easy to see. However this should not be a problem with a mix.

Whenever there is a change in industry, the saftey Nazi's are hard at work. They always claim that the change is more dangerous, thus you need them, their regulations, and their products. Don't buy this, its just job security for safety specialists. Do your research. Don't wait for others to post or give you the information, it may not happen, especially with politics.

RE: E85
 

I remember when I was doing that post the figure I gave didn't seem right but it what was on the web page I was checking. I've just been doing another search and figures for gasoline are all over the place, anywhere from -1C to -65C! Most sites say -40 so I'd go along with the majority :)

RE: E85
 

Actually being a distallate not a single chemical, and with summer and winter brews. The actual flash point probably does change from tank full to tank full. IE all over the place.

RE: E85
 

I have been running all of my glow engines on E85 for about 3 months now. The cost of Methanol became too high for my thin wallet. E85 is a poor fuel compaired to methanol, but for a sport pilot who doesn't need the full power of methanol+nitro it is managable.
For successfull operation you need to use a very cold plug or a good 4 stroke plug. The ideal would be a cold 4 stroke plug. Remember that a hot plug means less platinum and a cold plug means more. The catalytic effects of ethanol are les than methanol so you need more platinum. Also the 15 to 30 % gasoline added (in Colorado they add up to 30% gas in the winter to help starting) adversly effects starting and general running for a glow engine. I found that a Duratrax gold plug or a thunderbolt 4 stroke plug (#115490) work well and don't stress my thin wallet. The Fireball brand and Fox brand plugs work very poorly. An OS R5 cold plug is not as good as the Duratrax gold and costs more. Cold starting (sub freezing) is very difficult, using a prime of pure methanol helps alot. The power output is much less than when using methanol without nitro (nitro is too rich for my thin wallet, so I never use it), typically 500 to 1000 rpms less, but run times are almost doubled. I also use only 10 perecnt oil, and can use a smaller fuel tank to save weight. I only use synthetic oil, as caster becomes like glue in my engines in cold weather (I store all my flying stuff in an unheated shed). I use 13 ounces of Morgan fuels green heavy Kart oil per gallon. It is cheaper than caster oil and I have never had a problem with engine damage (I used the same mix when I used methanol as the fuel). In the hot summers I add 5% water for cooling when using methanol, but since I have only been using E85 this winter have not tried it with the E85. Glow plug sensitivity is severe with the E85 in most engines. I have some OS FP .25 engines that run fine even using a standard OS8 plug, but everything else requires 4 stroke or cool plugs. Using an older engine designed for little or no nitro seems the best bet. I would be interested in hearing the results of others using engines different than mine. I have super tigre .45 engines, and they run poorly on E85, the OS FP .25 runs well, but the .40 not so good. I have a thunder tigre .45 that runs nicely, having better needle valve operation, but those are the only engines I currently have. I want to buy some .60 engines to get some more power for my .40 planes now that I use E85 and would love to hear how each brand runs before stressing my ever thin wallet.
The E85 costs about half of what pure methanol costs here, so I intend to stick with it until I have solutions to all the problems. Another good thing about E85 is it's lack of toxidity compaired to methanol. I have the 30% gasoline version of E85 now, I hope the 15% summer blend solves some of the problems in a few months.

RE: E85
 

In my last post I made a typo stating that "glow plug sensitivity is severe". I should have said that the needle valve sensitivity is severe. Very touchy needle valve adjustments are the the biggest problem with E85. In fact I notice that an overly rich setting causes dead sticks just as much as overly lean, unlike methanol which is far more sensitive to lean than rich setting.
Good luck and let us know what you discover in your tests.

RE: E85
 

I will start to conduct attempts to use mixxes including E85 / methanol on different smaller motor 15 to 46 and as well preferably on my MVVS 1.60 26cc 18*10 MA with 5% nitro 10% synthetic 85% methanol with tuned pipe when its more run in

The aircraft I use for MVVS 160 is a Biplane Ultimate 54inch for 90 2 stroke and is over powered so as to be able to do towing work so losing a bit of power isn't a big issue when not doing towing so cutting fuel costs helps

In reality manufacturer costs of methanol ~$0.80c (USA Gallon) are half the cost of Ethanol ~$1.60c (USA Gallon) but with the distribution systems and most world government tax warp this and the result is cost for Ethanol are artificially made half the costs of Methanol from the pumps or shops shelfs
Therefore its a no brainer to try to reduce costs using some replacement or all replacement of Methanol using cheaper Ethanol usually found in the form E85

Toxicity of all fuels Gasoline Ethanol and Methanol is really they are all equally toxic when compared to non toxic liquids like soda pop
as in they all penetrate the skin and accumulate in human organs to a lesser or greater extent , poison and foul taste the water but gasoline is probably the most toxic by a long way with Methanol and Ethanol being lesser toxic agents (and Methanol is not to be confused with MTBE a very toxic agent cousin derivative chemical of Methanol that replaced methanol for anti knock in gasoline fuels )

Explosive issues is gasoline is the most explosive of these fuels due to its low vaporization abilities but possibly mixing of these fuels can aid or retard these issues but suspect its not such a big issue
What appearantly can definitely risk to cause a big explosion is starting with mixing gasoline into nitro methane as that will become very shock sensitive at something like above 20% ratios eg 70% gasoline 30% nitro methane
Mixing the other fuels first and than finally mixing in nitro methane solves that issue

It appears most glow motors are tolerant of 10% gasoline mixed in and 10% gasoline often means 20% extension in motor ruin times
Other users using 60% E85 40% glow fuel 10% nitro 15%% synthetic = fuel mix of approx
~% 11 synthetic
~5% nitro
~9%gasoline
43% Ethanol
~37% Methanol
in a E85/Methanol mix which should reduce cost of fuel to ~25% to 50% and give hopefully more than 30% longer run times for same tank hopefully 60%

The power losses I expect to be more like ~5% instead of ~10% from total change over to E85


Experiments hopefully begin in April

Balsaeater

RE: E85
 

repeat post

RE: E85
 

Hate it when that double post thingy happens. I messed around with E85 a few months back in my SuperTigre's and found it to run quite well. Yes, I did have to run a different glow plug, specifically an OS A3 to replace an OS #8. After the plug change it idled just as good as 10% glow fuel. I then added 10% NitroMethane to my brew to try and get my power back which worked. All in all, it turned out to be a very good fuel. I have since converted it to Gasoline/Spark ignition with good results and that's what I am currently running it on.

Downunder, I have run automotive engines on ethanol with the C/R as high as 13:1 with no hint of detonation at all. Can't say how it would react with the C/R that high in a model two stroke as there are other factors involved such as the oil dilution which in theory should reduce the antiknock qualities of the fuel. That's just speculation though as I haven't tried raising the C/R on a glow and then running E85 in it.

RE: E85
 

Thanks good info

I have no ideas on C/R limits for Ethanol

My issues in Europe is typical local model fuel cost in components

methanol neat ~$16.00 gal imp ~$13.00 a USA gal
EDL and Klotz ~$100.00 gal imp ~$ 85.00 a USA gal
Castor Recin ~$ 46.00 gal imp ~$ 40.00 a USA gal
Nitro methane ~$140.00 gal imp ~$ 120.00 a USA gal

automobile E85~$7.00 Gal Imp ~ $6.00 a USA gal
automobile GAS~$7.50 Gal Imp ~ $6.50 a USA gal (5% ethanol)

cost for home brew 10%EDL 5% nitro 85% methanol ~$35 a gal imp ~ $30 a USA gal

I don't like to use any Castor and often using EDL or Kloz and I will use half the the amount of same in Castor so that is similar price and more power results from fuel with lowwer oil content but don't tune lean as that might grill motor



(info below supplied is for those confused why bother with these experiments and modeled in SIMPLEX )

From this the lowest costs for me in expensive Europe is a real no brainer
and is to convert to gas spark ignition if the oil content drops to ~3% and use no nitro


But this drops the power typically ~25% compared to methanol zero nitro mix (often even more as the fins for cooling need to be bigger so weight increase issues kick in )

Also pure gasoline motor will risk to stink out my tiny hatch back Japanese car and so does pure E85
and is a issue for traveling with smelly model plane in commercial flights

So after landing and quickly running engine with pure glow fuel will stop most of these problems

The most powerful and costly will be methanol with high nitro~30% plus with tuned pipes and highest compression ratios and cost can be ~5 times more than gasoline version but maybe exceeding ~50% or even more than 100% more powerful than gasoline versions

Mostly because gasoline is less powerful fuel than Methanol or Ethanol and gasoline uses less compression ratio
(Higher compression ratios often results in increased power)

ball park compression ratios C/R average for model motors

gasoline....6:1 to 9:1 ......average......8:1
methanol...8:1 to 14:1.....average...9.5:1 Example often OS tend to be a good bit lower than European low nitro S/Tiger or MVVS
Ethanol......7:1 to 13:1.....average.....9:1 (estimated from real aircraft using Ethanol)

sample reduced table of fuels might explain thing slightly better

source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane

Fuel .....By weight ... Percent fuel by weight

Gasoline....14.7 : 1 .......................6.8%

Ethanol...........9 : 1.......................11.1% ~1.8 times more than gasoline

Methanol......6.4 : 1.......................15.6% ~2.2 times more than gasoline

Nitro.............1.7:1..(ball park est) 58.8% ~ 9 times more than gasoline


Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane

Injecting the above table into MJ/litre we see roughly how much power is available from other fuels in MJ/litre gasoline equivalent

nitro methane ~10.5 MJ/litre
(ratio consumption ~9 times gasoline result in a theoretical result of ~ 90 MJ/litre gasoline equivalent
(~ 3 times more power heat gasoline but this often translates to slightly less than double the power increase over gasoline )

Methanol 17.9 MJ/litre

usually a tad more than double the fuel compared to gasoline is used so real results ~ 70 MJ/litre gasoline equivalent
(~ 2 times more power heat than gasoline but this often translates to slightly less than 30% the power increase over gasoline )

Ethanol 23.5 MJ/litre usually a tad less than double the fuel compared to gasoline is used so real results ~ 60 MJ/litre equivalent
(~ less than times more power heat than gasoline but this often translates to slightly less than 20% the power increase over gasoline )

leaded gas 33.5 MJ/litre (estimate from leaded aviation gasoline and comparing to unleaded 5% Ethanol types of gasolines )

Uses the least fuel but less power and gets all oxygen from the air but also lower compression from knock issues

Adding ~5% Ethanol will aid compared to pure gasoline without lead additives to suppress knock but result in ~10% fuel increase and possible ~5% increase in power


Putting a tuned pipe on can retrieve ~5% extra power form most all types of fuels

Nitro methane Stoichiometric ~2:1 gets used up at ~4.5 times faster than Methanol Stoichiometric ~7:1
and ~9 times faster than gasoline ~ Stoichiometric 15:1

As nitro methane costs typically ~10 times gasoline this makes nitro some ~100 times more expensive to use than gasoline
or 50 times more costly than methanol solutions

so some rough ball park conclusions

This might infer using a zero nitro methanol fuel might be cheaper than using a 10% nitro with E85 fuel and return similar power
assuming same oil content typically 18% (50% synthetic 50% Castor) and is likely to be the case with lower compression motors like OS

Increasing the compression ratio and decreasing the oil content to 10% (100% synthetic ) and using 90% Methanol and 0% nitro and motor like super Tigre & MVVS which can do this will then probably produce more power than equivalent lower compression OS using 10% nitro with Methanol or Ethanol and be cheaper than both as the OS which usually require 15% to 18% oil

However for the novice the lower compression motors tend to be easier to start and tune and less prone to dead sticks especially the higher the nitro contents so its swings and roundabouts

In a WOT (wide open throttle ) given a choice between changing from motor 60 example simplex ~ 1 BHP with zero nitro WOT 1/4onz per minute
to use it with with high nitro like ~30% nitro to get ~1.5bhp 1/2onz per minute
or zero nitro motor like 90 to get same 1.5 BHP at ~onz per minute 1/3
the resulting fuel consumption from the 90 version will probably be ~50% a zero nitro version 60 motor
possibly supply 50% more the power 1.5BHP compared to a 60 high nitro version.
However the 60 high nitro version will probably be double the fuel consumption rate 1/2 onz per minute of the 60 motor using zero nitro 1/4 onz per minute
and will probably supply the same 50% power increase but do so on smaller lighter motor than a 90 solution
but WOT expect fuel costs to be quadruple due to high nitro factoring in multiplier affect on fuel cost

In the same scenario above for flying in acro or 3D the case is more confused
In hover with zero nitro 60 motor might be at ~1/2 gas position could be replaced with ~1/3 gas position for high nitro fuel or larger 90 motor and so fuel consumption wont be so much more excessive than zero nitro fuel when in hover mode and possibly fuel cost only ~50% greater cost with high nitro in hover mode and mayby only ~10% more fuel consumption from 90 zero nitro position

If the majority of the flight can be done at 1/3 gas with higher nitro 60 motor the cost impact is less bad the plane will tend to be lighter (but factor in fuel tank will tend to be 50% bigger to supply same flying time ) and have better punch out from hover and more grunt in the mid regime and more easier to tune (wide band tuning as in tuning will often stay the same all day long )

If cost is more important the zero nitro 90 version will be similar as higher nitro 60 version and have reasonable grunt at 1/3 to 1/2 regime as the motor will be less less stressed but will be a tad heavier than 60 high nitro equivalent but a tad more fiddly to tune (narrow band as in tuning cool early morning can be different to hot midday conditions )
The results will be similar in weight RPM and prop size and power to a medium nitro 4 stoke ~70 to ~75 motor

Heli 3D competition copters will tend to have no real choice except 30% nitro but planes can have extra options as wings can support extra weight better than rotor blades can

Replacing the fuel components with cheaper gasoline or Ethanol will impact slightly on power with gasoline affecting power the most
However the gasoline can allow less oil content as low as 2% and when its a component of fuel help lubricate motor so redducing oil lubrication needs compared to dryer Methanol Ethanol fuels
This can result getting some power back compared to 18% oil in pure glow versions
Also fuel consumption will be less with E85 type fuels so smaller lighter tanks can also assist power to weight ratios
Tuned pipes can also return back power but increase weight slightly and tend to be tuned correctly for one narrow rpm range which can be an issue for 3D
Pure Gasoline and E85 or Ethanol or high ratio mixed into glow fuels also nearly always increase weight with continuous drive glow battery or for pure gasoline a spark ignition solution adds weight also

Factoring in all these multiple of variables for me requiring a quazi four stroke large prop turning more slowly affect I can sorta achieve that with a standard two stroke when I double the size the of 2 stroke engine and run it at lower gas regime
Fuel consumption can also be controlled better with slower regime and bigger props turning prop more slowly in RPM tend to return better efficiency than smaller props at high RPM speeds

Bigger engines with low nitro rates will be more stable in engine regime at low RPM and will be possibly less affected with lower power fuel like E85 mixed into the glow fuel and tuned pipe could help recoup the lost power hopefully at ratios of 60% E85

With this formula my 90 sized biplane Ultimate with a MVVS 160 with tuned pipe costing ~$2.50 a 16 onz tank using 5% nitro 10% EDL and 85% Methanol WOT ~1.3 onz per minute mid regime ~3/4 onz per minute could possibly be replaced with a 60% E85 40% zero nitro glow fuel where elements will hopefully be

..8.00 % gasoline
47.50 % Ethanol
37.50 % Methanol
..6.00 % EDL or Kloz

And hopefully reduce cost of fuel to $1.60 c per 16 onz tank and probably still 3/4 onz per minute to get same power at slightly higher gas setting and recoup the lost 10% power with the tuned pipe and higher gas setting
and hopefully reduce costs per tank to
~60% of pure glow 5% nitro version
and suffer at most a 10% power drop compared to pure nitro version

For towing gliders work changing the glow plug and back to 5% glow fuel will give me max power

Changing to pure gasoline on these smaller motors is probably not worth the power drop and the possible risks of the greater vibrations and when I go on holidays on commercial aircraft simply changing the plane to run on glow fuel before departing can remove the serious strong odour problems with the gasoline and E85 fuels and allow me to more easily package the plane for international flights and simply buy the local glow fuels with 5% nitro preferably synthetic but Castor or mixed would do while on holidays


If the experiments fail well the MVVS 160 motor on glow fuel 5% or zero nitro is still affordable as its mostly on 1/3 gas or less to loop and most acro so its not to expensive each flight certainly with low nitro is probably cheaper than Lipo electric versions and probably a lot cheaper than 90 version on 30% nitro



I am also trying to work on a more complex version of this type of program supplied fre at this site


http://www.taa.org.au/html/home_brew.html

For standard glow mix this program works well and can I gather also supply costs per Gal /Litre /KG/LBS as you go along

I would want to try to more fuels including other families of nitro such as nitro ethanes also acetones and ISO alcohols etc and include Stoichiometric rates costs ratios and MJ/litre and so be better able to project better the cost and power ratio issues

If the program already exists or useful info is there be happy to look it up save me leg work

or if somebody with better programing abilities wants to do similar let me know also

Balsaeater

RE: E85
 

I experimented with an Enya 60X using 80/20 all castor fuel and gradually raised the compression from the standard 9.75:1 checking the rev increase each time. Past 13.5:1 there was no more rev increase so I backed off to the 13.5 as the final optimum compression. I kept the same plug during all this but further increase was likely if I'd gone to a colder plug. However this gave me a 22% increase in HP based on the before and after revs. With ethanol you'd have to do a similar experiment to find the optimum compression.

RE: E85
 

Excellent info and a lot cheaper than 10% nitro to get the same results

downunder you seem to be really up to speed with all the guru of this no nitro solutions so please keep the info flowing

Thanks

How was starting and tuning with the higher C/R?? or if there were issues as C/R increased did they kick in incrementally or did they arrive abruptly at certain C/R like 12 :1 or similar or were there no issues ??

Using the same methods this might return back sufficient lost power using E85 or Ethanol to make it more interesting to do !

I have a very rarely used pre 1990 Super Tiger 4cc 25 that needs experimenting on as it seems only to know one speed WOT
and its cheaper than experimenting first on my bigger engines which eat fuel fast

To raise the C/R do you machine down the head or do you do it buy hand carefully as I don't have access to Lathe or similar and can only remove shims or do manual changes


Later if experiments pan out well instead to get new MVVS 45cc gasoline version I could get the Glow version and make a FLEXY FUEL version before putting it into a 1800mm CAP and hopefully get power outputs like a 80cc gasser

Balsaeater

RE: E85
 

Brian, you may have already answered this in another thread and if so forgive me for asking again. Are you measuring C/R for the full piston travel or just from where the ports close?

RE: E85
 

Jezmo,
I prefer to measure compressions using swept volume same as used for 4 stroke car engines, mainly because even a 4 stroke has it's inlet valve still open past BDC (gas inertia..blah blah blah). It's a bit of a controversial subject as to which way is more correct but because 2 strokes all have very similar timings then either way can be used. I just find it simpler using swept volume because I'll have already measured the stroke or found it in the manual.

With the Enya, starting was identical (one flick, can't improve on that :)) but you can feel the difference in compression although it was still quite easy to flick over. From memory (a hard disc crash wiped out all the details) I increased it each run by .5 at a time until the rev curve started to flatten out then went by .25 for the last couple of runs. There was no difference in handling on any run. As far as tune goes, the main needle needed to be about a quarter turn further open but the idle surprised me because I had to lean it out considerably (the Enya uses an air bleed for idle but also has a midrange adjustment). Idling was much smoother and lower, I suspect because it had much more useable idle compression which made it more efficient at burning fuel. In flight it gave one more surprise in that it unloaded like crazy :), far more than it did before. It's never burned out a plug and got quite a lot of flight time after the testing (which really didn't take all that long anyway). For interest's sake, the modded .60 exactly matched a standard Enya .80X on the same prop and fuel.

I had to machine the head to raise the comp to the level I needed because taking out any shims simply doesn't do much at all. As I said, I lost my data but I'm fairly certain I ended up lowering the head by .024", most shims are only about .008" and usually only one is fitted anyway. On the Enya, removing this much was no problem because it still had around .020" squish clearance. I've got a self imposed limit (meaning hey let's not take any chances here :)) of .010" squish clearance.

Engines will vary as to how they respond though. I did a quick and dirty mod to an ST 45 not long ago and only saw a 200 rev increase which worked out to about 4% extra HP but I was basing the before revs on a run I did long ago, not back to back. My son bumped up the comp on his SC 1.08 and got a massive 800 rev rise. This was the same increase I had with the Enya but his engine was only turning the prop down around the 8500 range where the Enya was in the 12,000 range.

RE: E85
 

Thanks
I know a machinist and can throw him a few beers XXXX now I know the principle

Pity my RC Enya 2.5cc 15 died from a crash but thats life

Balsaeater

RE: E85
 

Brian,
Thanks for the info. I am in the process of raising the C/R on my SuperTigre 51 that I am running on gasoline with spark ignition. I have it at 11:1 now (measured by the swept method) and the power increase is huge over the stock C/R. Yes, as you said, just taking out the head shim isn't much so, like you, I have been machining to get the rest. I am running high octane race gas so I should be able to go to at least 12:1 without fear of detonation. After I get the needle bearing rod in it I am going to try some E85 and see how it runs on that. Have a great one in the land downunder.

RE: E85
 

I have a question about oils. I have been reading about home mixing fuels and was curious about mixing lawn type 2 stroke oils with E85 to attempt use in glow engines. I know caster and its synthetic counterparts are supposedly superior oils for glow motors, but the primary reason that has been given for its use is the lack of anything else blending with methanol. If lawnmower 2 stroke oil will blend with 100% gasoline, it should at least stay mixed with E85. I may be way off in thinking this may be a way to get away from expensive castor and synthetic castor, but it would be nice. Anyone have any thoughts or experiance with this brew?

RE: E85
 

Ethanol is a alcohol like Methanol and 15% the E85 is gasoline
I ant no expert but the last links I saw suggested that alcohols are different in molecular bonding and resist disolving the normal gasoline lubrication oils and so might suggest the oil will fall out of suspension to easily
The gasoline fuel has a exrra lubrication quality and hopefully could help reduce amounts of lubrication needed

I personally haven't experience of mixing E85 as it only came my local region a few weeks ago but if somebody does speak up and hopefully save me money from experiments that wont work

Balasaeater

RE: E85
 

I have been doing more tests with E85 fuel and have some info that you might make use of. I bought a remote temperature meter from Harbor frieght on sale, with a laser pointer. I measured the cylinder head temperature of several engines in the .25 to .61 size range in cold weather (30 degrees to 50 degrees F). Engine manufacturers don't seem to give that info out. Engines running on 15% nitro commercial fuel seem to run between 350 and 400 degrees F. E85 runs at about 220-275 degrees F. (These of course are on the bench tests). I find that wrapping the cylinder head with thin cardboard to insulate it brings the temperature back up to 350 when using E85. This really helps improve the engine operation. Also after trying every glow plug I could get my hands on here in the out back, I have settled on the one that gives the best performance and life, at a reasonable cost (remember my goal is the cheapest flying possible). The Thunderbolt #115480 4 stroke and large 2 stroke glow plug is the best I have found. It runs very well on E85, with excellant power and has a long life from my tests to date. Note it is still winter here, so temperatures rarely go over 50 dregrees F, usually sub freezing. The OS F 4 stroke and other 4 stroke plugs are too fragile, and burn out after several flights. The cold plugs run, but the colder operating temperature retards the timing so output power is low under the cold conditions. Perhaps they will be better once summer arrives. The Thunderbolt plugs are available from Hobby People for $5.49.
I advise buying a remote sensing temperature meter frome Harbor Frieght or some other place, as it really helps figure out what is going on.
Once summer arrives, standard E85 will become available (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline). Hopefully it will work better than what I have now (70% ethanol, 30% gasoline, the winter blend available here).
My next step is to make some new cylinder heads that accept 2-3 glow plugs. I think that will boost the power. Only one plug has to have an intact coil, so I can use some of my sacrificed test plugs. I will make the heads with no cooling fins to increase the temperature up to 400 degrees F. I will make a baffle to install for winter flying as well. I would like to make an automatic temperature regulator baffle system using a servo and a small microprocessor controller, but it would be a bit heavy and only practical for larger engines. I will post any new test results that I find.

Good luck

RE: E85
 

Re: sopwith

Once summer arrives, standard E85 will become available (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline). Hopefully it will work better than what I have now (70% ethanol, 30% gasoline, the winter blend available here).

I would think that winter blend with more gasoline will be hotter as gasoline burns very hot

the low temperature is not sounding good

I can handle higher costs so running a 50% glo and 50% e85 soulution would be ok for me

thanks keep us posted

RE: E85
 

Hi sopwith, most valuable info you share with us above. I sure admire your systematic approach to the use of E85 and you certainly changed my earlier misconception about engines running (too) hot on E85....THANK YOU..:D......I will try E85 again this coming season and make sure the engine(s) become hot enough to run well. Do not know what could be a european equivalent to the Thunderbolt plug you used..?..any ideas..? I will try E85 on my 4S Saito engines as before...Cheers/Harald