(your thinking, great...another one!)

I'm sorry, I looked through some thread and I see all kinds of suggestions on getting dual rotor and 4 channel birds (oh man, using terminology already!) but I'm interested in getting pretty serious and would like to start out on something I can take out and learn how to fly. I'm looking to do simple stuff at first and don't plan on taking it to 600' the first day and doing flips and other crazy stuff. I want something that I can grow with and will keep me on my toes. I seriously want to learn on a 6 channel single rotor bird and go up from there. I know it sounds weird, but I was recently looking for a challenging hobby that I can do outdoors and have always wanted to fly a heli. As far as crashing and cost, $40-50 isn't going to kill me if that's what your thinking. (Hell, I was thinking about buying a $700 nitro starter package...)

My questions are pretty standard. I've seen the links to the training sites posted here and on other forums and want to get a good beginner heli. I read on some forums that the small birds are harder to fly in the wind(?) so I ended up looking at some of the 40-50 Nitros. Not wanting to start off as a beginner crashing a near $1000 toy I eventually decided it would be best to get a nice electric for a couple hundred and get the basics of flight down before dropping a grand on a nitro setup. Eventually when I get used to the control and flight characteristics, I want to go with liquid fuel and get more serious with it. My main concern is getting an electric that will put me on a good learning curve to fuel and I'm completely at a loss as to where and what I should be looking at. I'll even take suggestions on some good sites for purchase. ( I looked for a shop in the local area and all the links or contacts I've found are broken or moved. )

Sorry to get another thread on "newbie looking for a starter bird!", but I didn't see one that seemed to point to a good mid to upper range electric learner. I want to dive head first into the sport and not start off one something that will impair me when I upgrade later. (If that even made sense!)

hey man, nothing to apologize for =) and welcome to the group. For the CP heli's I would look into the blade cp pro (honeybee cp2 is close to the same thing), and the helimax axe cp. Those are pretty good RTF's that are right in the ball park of $200 bucks.

I personally started on the cp pro, and I've found that alot of fun. Some people though get really frustrated and quit because the size and price range of heli's you are looking at are really the hardest ones on the market to fly.

here is a write up I did on the axe vs the cp pro
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5638183

if you go with e-flite get the cp pro, not the cp. I have a good article on why you want to go that way. Lemme know if you are looking at that way and want to read it.

Good luck, and let us know if you have more q's

If you had more like $500 to start, you might look at a TRex also

You mean like the TREX 450XL/SE or something? (found here: [link=http://www.helihobby.com/html/trex_helicopter.html]http://www.helihobby.com/html/trex_helicopter.html[/link] )

If I have to go up to the $500 range to get a better flier, I'm not about to argue. I don't want something "cheap" per say. I'm just a little confused yet on what the big differences are in these. I know some have upgraded motors, frames, blades and such. Most of these places I see have a lot of "package deals" and quite frankly, it's a bit confusing for someone starting off. I mean, it ranges from about $120 to somewhere in the range of $700. I'm guessing I want to avoid "minis" or "micros" if I want something that will behave a little better? And I'm also going to need a radio (which should be capable of flying any future birds I purchase?) In all, I guess it's cool since you can just buy the frame and upgrade it if you find something isn't working out the way you want.

Are there any component manufacturers that have a high standing? What's this Hiller/eCCPM difference I keep seeing? (Sorry, I haven't looked into it too much.) Any reason to go with "Brushless"? On the above link, does the "T-Rex 450XL CDE Spectrum Package" look like a good starting platform? With it including the radio, should I be cautious about the quality of some of the components? If I opt for the kit... how long is this thing going to take to build up? :P Honestly, I have no qualms about building it myself. I think it would be a good way to learn why things do what they do.

Thanks for the suggestions so far by the way.

yeah, you're welcome

eccpm is basically you have 3 servos that control the swash movement and the pitch of the blades with computer mixing in the Tx (electronic collective cyclic pitch mixing. The other option is mccpm as some people call it (which isn't correct because there is no mixing involved) has a servo for the fore and aft cyclic, and the left and right cyclic, and then one for the pitch of the blades. There aren't alot of the mechanical setups around anymore, but there are still a few.

hiller is a type of head, and so is bell hiller. The bell hiller is more responsive because it has direct links to the flybar. If you need more info on that I've got some pics somewhere that show the difference.

brushless is a good way to go because it uses less power, is more powerful, and doesn't wear out. There are some things to keep in mind though, especially when it comes to buying a brushless esc. I'll let someone else fill in here because I don't know all that much.

I forgoet how mini and mico's are classified, but it's usually like under 400g stock weight is a micro, and over that is a mini. Micro's are harder to fly because they are more responsive and less stable, and mini's are more expensive but alot more stable, but you'll probably end up somewhere in that range.

That is one of the great appeals to the RTF packages. Not such a steep learning curve. If you decide you want to go with a TRex, check out helifreak.com they have alot of good build videos.

I personally think that would be a good package because you get the dx6 and a complete setup for like $500 bucks, but I dunno that much about TRex's, so maybe someone else could give some better advice.

So what's wrong with going straight to nitro? Before the advent of small electrics, we all learned on nitro birds. The normal learning curve was a 30 sized machine, then a 60 sized machine when you were ready. Eventually, the 50 and the 90 sized machines came about. The beauty of it is that you can upgrade a 30 to a 50 very easy and you can upgrade a 60 to a 90 equally easy.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND small electrics to start with. If you have no experience in RC a small electric might not be for you. I will get flamed by that statement, but the skill required to fly a small nitro is considerably higher than what is required to fly a bigger helicopter. The old saying "bigger is better" DOES apply to RC. They fly a hell of a lot better then the little electrics.

Now, on the other hand, a crash with a nitro will be a little more than the $40-$50 that you talk about. A good set of carbon blades for a 50 sized helicopter start at $70. That will be your absolute minimum crash cost when you start using carbon blades. You do not have to use carbon blades right away, but you will eventually. Plan on spending an average of $80 for every crash with wood blades.

I know it is a lot of information that maybe you did not want to hear. But the reality cannot be covered up. If you are as serious as you say you are, DO NOT go with small electrics and take the jump into the nitros.

Or you could go with the bigger electrics, as the Align TRex 600 or the Thunder Tiger Raptor E620. The only drawback that the bigger electric have is that the battery cost goes thru the roof. But as some people have said, you purchase all the fuel up-front with electrics.

Rafael

The biggest reason I wanted to start on electric was that I wouldn't have to deal with fuel ratios, starters and all that fun stuff. The other reason was the noise output. I would like to have something I can sit out on the porch, set the bird in the yard and hover around a bit until I get used to it. Though, if you tell me I can get a nitro or gas with a good muffler that makes it super quiet (for a combustion) I may end up going that way. I had originally looked at nitros and figured electric may have been cheaper, but now I'm back up in the $500 range of electric to try to avoid the little ones... My friend has a little electric and it feels like you don't control them ( they control you! ) and your only choice in the matter is to nudge them in your preferred direction, but it's like it has a mind of it's own. At least it's how it felt to me. I don't remember what model he has, but it was more of a toy and crashes were mostly non-events. This is mainly why I wanted something bigger and originally looked at nitro.

However, I don't want something too big. I have an RX8 and the thing has to be able to fit in the trunk or the front floor so I can fly it away from the neighbors. So I'm at a crossing here trying to decide if I should bump up to $700 (think it was a 40 or 50?) on a starter nitro package I saw or stick to a bigger electric (450 TREX?). I have nothing to start with, so I need the radio and all that fun stuff. It's not that big of an issue, but I want to be sure that it's what I can handle.

Also, I know there are some "die hard" RC'ers that would say "All or nothing" and they may be right, but I have to find something that isn't going to cost me an arm and leg. (Yeah, I know that's relative...) I'm a computer dev, so flight time is my biggest concern right now rather than cost... that and a good chunk of my tax check is pretty much delegated to this new hobby Speaking of flight time, am I right in saying that liquid fuel will have longer flight times? As you may already see I'm still fairly undecided right now...

BTW, I did find some good reading on Hiller/Bell vs eCCPM and I think I understand it.

To add more questions to the lot... The DX6 I've seen a lot of talk about. Being in a computer background I know spread spectrum is normally a good thing for interference and I assume it's the same here. Is the DX6 a fairly well supported controller? Is the range on these any different than a standard FM?

Hi all,

I too, am a total noob to RC helis and like the idiot I am, I went out and dropped $249 US on a E-Flight Blade CP PRO. I read these forums and weighed
the choices for a month or two b4 I decided to take the plunge.

The main reason I went for the blade cp pro was "SUPPORT". My local hobby shop has every upgrade and replacement part imaginable. E-Flight is also
very reputable and their manuals are incredible! The CP pro manual even tells you IN DETAIL w/PIC'S how to do upgrades or even "dummy down" your
heli by adding extra weights on the paddle bar.

I also am fortunate enough to have an extremely experienced (pres. of my local AMA chapter) friend who helped me with setup and pre-flights.
As it turned out, my heli was shipped w a bad servo and my buddy noticed it right away. I went back to my LHS and they swapped out the servo lickity-split.
Once again,,,,...SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT.

NOW I REALIZE that the cp pro is NOT INTENDED FOR NOOBS......however....my decision was based on the reasoning that the true begginer RTF's
are usually around $200 US and for the extra 50 bucks u get a much more Aerobatic heli. This combined with the huge amount of knowledge and support avail.
on-line/forums, local shop and friends...

OK, Im sure alot of peeps will say, no no no, wrong choice for a noob, but I have ZERO regrets. I LOVE THE CP PRO!
I am following my friends advice and (the advice of many in these forums) using the rads flight training post...link;

http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

Now to start saving up for an AMA membership.....send donations to: hah j/k

I know lots of you will have an opinion on this one looking forward to hearing from u all.

-Peplinsk

I'm pretty much alone in this, thus my desire to take it REALLY slow. I don't know anyone that flies around here. Back "home" my parents live near a small grass strip airport where they used to fly all the time and I could hear the little combustion engines (on the planes) from a half mile to about a mile away (thus my concern on noise, but it was nice and quiet there.) Unfortunately, I think they stopped flying a few years back and besides, it's a good two hour drive to get there.

I would go for a T-Rex and maybe also buy a simulator. You'll never outgrow the Rex like you probably will a CP Pro.

I wish I had a picture of my TRex side by side with my Raptor 50. The TRex is less than half of the size of the Raptor. As a comparison, get a metric ruler out. My TRex uses 325mm blades, two of them for a rotor diameter of about 650-700mm (2.3ft). On the other hand, my Raptor 50 uses 600mm blades, for a rotor diameter of about 1300-1400mm (4.6ft). Remember that 1 meter is 1000mm and is approximately 3.3 ft.

Now, transportation being an issue, (RX8) then electrics might be part of the solution. The equipment required for a nitro might not fit in your car. Although with a properly set-up engine, your field equpment could be the bare minimum. But if something hapens at the field, you are stuck with an unflyable helicopter.

Now the same applies to the electrics. You would probably need some basic tools in a toolkit to make any repairs / adjustments that need to be done at the field, but not having to carry a starter, fuel and associated equipment will make the toolkit much smaller.

Now on to help. Go here: [link=http://pilotlocator.net]Pilot Locator[/link] it used to be pretty much up to date a few years ago. Don't know if it is used much nowadays. You could also search for a club here: [link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx]AMA Club Locator[/link]

Rafael

Thanks for all the info Rafael23cc! Especially the blade lengths.

The trunk of my car isn't tiny, but the opening is. That's my biggest concern. I can fit myself in the trunk and still have room and I'm 6'2" 200lbs. It's actually quite spacious, but as I said the opening isn't. I'll probably get the TREX for now and stick a liquid on my list for next year (or less, depending on how it's working out ) I was also thinking about getting a small truck for the winter months, so it shouldn't be a problem for too long.

I assume I'd be better off with an AMA membership, as it's required for every club listed on the site you linked. Are you also a member? It's $58 to sign up form what I see, but I can't seem to find what the renewal fees and such are. (I take it they are basically the same as the current sign up fee?) How often do you have to renew?

As far as tools, I assume a nice set of basic tools (pliers, snips, crimps, ties, etc.), some small screwdrivers for those extra tiny screws, soldering equipment(?) and spare parts? My basic geek tools should do.

Ama will be required most anywhere you fly models. Parks are now requiring you to do so. This is a great outfit. I have been a member for over 40 years. I am a lifetime member so not sure the cost. It has liability insurance with the membership. Have you seen what a blade can do to a person? Rc machines are not toys and are dangerous. I have seen people killed in RC airplane races! Plus you get a magazine etc. They have a web page.

Tools: Add a pitch gauge, 2 Paddle guages (looks like small ptch guages) , metric allen and nut drivers. Ball link pliers. (don't buy a balancer they are usually out of balance too) you can us a round pen or pencil to balance blades. Look in this forum on how. Get a gram scale. to help balance and C/G blades. $15-20 bucks! Trex would be my choice. I , like you want to get ride of the noise.

JIM

Andir, you are not alone now.

[email protected] anytime!

Yes, I'm an AMA member, renewal fee is the same as the join fee. There is a whole list of benefits that some people use and some people don't use. The best thing is the insurance. But don't be fooled. The insurance is ADDITIONAL coverage above what your homeowner's or similar insurance do not cover. I suggest that you go back to the club search website, find the home page and surf around for a while looking for the specific information.

More technical tools would be ball link pliers, and possibly a head tach, If you can't find a buddy that has one. The head tach is not absolutely necessary, but at some point you will need to find out how fast the rotor head is spinning, so you don't overstress the components.

Ball link pliers:


Head tach:


Rafael

Awesome, I wouldn't have even thought about those specialty tools. I can't thank you guys enough.

I'd advise staying away from the small cheap micros (ala Blade CP or Honeybee) as they're a nightmare to fly as has been stated.

The t-rex on the other hand, while still small, is a very smooth stable machine. Easily as stable as a lot of .30 size helicopters in my experience, and definitely a lot more powerful. The biggest difference in control compared to a larger machine is that the T-rex is MUCH more nimble than a .30 size heli. It's for this reason that it's one of the most expensive micros, but also one of the best. It can take you from just starting out with hovers and then to the most extreme 3D possible (assuming you've got the right setup).

Of course, when you're all said and done with a t-rex, you'll have enough invested that you could just as easily buy a .30.

It really depends on the route you want to go. For the initial setup, a T-rex will need to be "dumbed" down to keep the responsiveness in check while you're starting out, but can later be adjusted to fly more aggressively than even the most powerful nitro helicopter.

A .30 class ship on the other hand, well, they're always kind of underpowered. They'll be stable for learning, but you'll outgrow it eventually and want a .50 size machine, so in this regard, i'd suggest starting from a .50 from the get go if you go nitro. But then you've got high repair costs that go with it (easily in the $100 range).


If your goal is to fly a nitro machine, then i'd say just start with nitro from the beginning, it'll be cheaper and easier than buying multiple helicopters as you progress, especially with two different power sources that require different support equipment.
Another thing to consider is that electric isn't any easier just because it's electric. This is, unfortunately, a common misconception with a lot of people who start out in the hobby thinking electric is the easy way to do it.
You may not have to deal with engine tuning issues, but those get replaced by having to know and understand all the various components in an electric system and how they interact with each other to get the performance you need. How to care for and properly charge lithium batteries without burning your house down. How to keep things like the ESC from interfering with the radio signal. How to program the ESC for the settings you need to prevent destroying your motor.

You'll need support equipment such as chargers and balancers. You need to monitor flight times to avoid battery damage and a slew of other annoyances that come with electric flight. You really just replace one set of headaches with a different set. The nice thing with electrics, of course, is that once you do get the setup right, you just set it and forget it, and unless you break something, the performance will stay consistent (which isn't true for IC engines which can change depending on the weather or any other number of reasons).


In the end, it just comes down to what you want. If you got the cash, theres no reason why you can't go both routes, but it'll be expensive . Just remember that bigger is typically easier to fly and easier to learn on. The t-rex is a very stable machine that flies like the bigger ones, it just needs to be seriously toned down for a newbie 'cause it's really aggressive on the cyclic.

I flew micro electrics for a long time, then went to large electrics. I enjoy flying my large electrics (.30 and .50 size) much more than the micros. It's not so much that they fly better, it's just that they're easier to see and easier to work on. After awhile, it gets really frustrating working with all those tiny screws on the mini's!