What is the difference between the units? Is the difference worth the $300 difference? I Need some advise. I understand it will help reduce the crash hazard.

In my opinion, a simulator is the best crash hazard reducer. Well, that and practice.

Buy a sim and a case of fuel

I love how threads get hijacked in the beginners forum with "Buy a sim".

"So I was wondering about the comparison's between A and B"

...


"Get Q"


I'm assuming your talking about FMA Co-pilot and probably thinking about the CPD4? Maybe on a Raptor 3D since thermal7 raves about his experience with them. I have no experience with the heli commander, but am also interested in a "co-pilot". I'm sure thermal will weigh in on this topic, and he is far more experienced with the FMA model than myself.. but in the meantime I'll help with some research. You say there is a $300 difference? I wonder if this is because the heli commander is tailored for CCPM?

The CPD4 is 70 bucks, the FS8 co pilot is 150.......... if you buy 4 FS8's you get 300 bucks difference! Otherwise I have no idea where the 300 bucks comes in on that one.


http://www.fmadirect.com/index.htm


__________________________________________________ ___________________________________


Of all the things I ever lost....................................... I miss my mind the most!

Never heard of the heli commander but I have used the FMA CPD4 co-pilot . Used it to learn how to fly airplanes as there were no instructors where I lived, and now I am using it on my. Falcon 3D to help me learn how to fly it. I think it's great I haven't had the heli very long but i am already able to hover it both low and high and haven't crashed yet. Oh yea. I have never used a Sim. Nothing against them I just couldn't justify $200 for it.

Tigermeet,
Depending on what heli you will be flying, a CP heli like the Falcon 3D or a CCPM heli like the TREX, you will need the CPD4 for the CP models or the FS8 for the CCPM heli's. My experience is with the Falcon 3D of which I have 2 flying at this time. I have the CPD4 installed on both and I am a beginner with 41 flights and no crashes. It just makes sense using it as you can hover right off the back and not crash. You can move into fast forward flight doing circuits back and forth and also fly the heli up high where you have time to think what you are doing. High hovers are common and also the CPD4 works great if you are in a windy area. I normally fly in 10 to 20 mph winds here in the Sacramento area of Northern CA. I also have a simulator the G2 which I have flown heli's with and of course crashed several times. Flying the simulator is a good tool but the CPD4 at 70 bucks is cheaper and you are outside with your heli flying and not crashing at all. I'm not saying you could not crash while using the CPD4, but it will take alot of effort to crash with it installed. I have flown 3 and 4 meter large sailplanes, discus launched 70 inch gliders, and an assortment of electric planes for many years and flying heli's is a whole differenct ballgame. It takes a great deal more concentration and stick control to fly and even just hover a heli. It is a constant balancing act and one mistake when you put an input in and fail to give opposite input to take it out will result in crash, ordering parts and depression. The CPD4 is an infrared stabalization system that measures the ground versus sky temperatutes and after properly set up on the ground before each flight, it memorizes the LEVEL position of the heli as it sits on the ground before lift off. As you lift the heli off the ground, the CPD4 throughout the flight will be holding the level position resulting in automatically hovering your heli. You will still make control inputs, left stick power, left stick rudder but the heli will be hovering in one position or moving depending on the amount of wind you are flying. Push the cyclic right stick forward and your input will override the CPD4 hover and the heli will move forward...move right cyclic and the heli moves right or move it left it goes left...if the heli is out front and you want it to come back, give some back cyclic. You can enter forward flight and get the heli up high and have time to think what you want to do. You have time to test the rudder, point the heli in whatever direction and just fly around. The heli will not tip over unless you HOLD say right cyclic and not release the stick or put it to neutral. The CPD4 constantly is working to keep the heli in a level hover because of that setup you did before the flight. Flying without crashing is totally possible and a reality with this device. If you would rather fly than crash, I would definately recommend you fly with this device. It will work beyond your expectations. There has been alot of beginners buying these lately. Check with KA-PLANES.COM for the CPD4 or go to FMADIRECT.COM. I am just one satisfied customer. If you get one and have any questions whatsover, send me an email and I will give you some tips for easy installation of the CPD4. Ralph (Thermal7)
PS I have some video clips on YOU TUBE...search FALCON 3D and CPD4
GOOD LUCK my friend...

The helicommand is Laser and gyro controlled. When the lasers cannot see the ground (weak lasers) the gyros take over.

The Co-pilot FS8 or CPD4 works on IR energy. The ground is hotter than the sky principle. That IR energy varias slightly as you go up in altitude.

I have seen both fly on helicopters and own an FS8 installed in a plank. They both have their ups and downs.

The Co-pilot systems can be fooled by a hot engine or exhaust. A friend of mine installed one on a gas powered AP Helicopter and he told me that the heat of the engine made the co-pilot read a false signature and made the helicopter tilt away from the heat source. The heat was in front of the sensor, so the helicopter was always backing up.

The Helicommand, is inmune to heat signatures and the system is calibrated by the ground sensors while the heli is on the ground. When the ground sensors cannot detect the ground anymore, the unit switches to gyro-stabilized flight. I do not know much more about this unit. Other than the guy that had the heat problem with his Co-pilot system changed to a helicommand.

Either system seems to do it's intended job. Would I recommend them? Probably not. I do have my FS8 on a plank to teach newcomers the down and dirty basics of flight without jeopardizing my model. On a helicopter, they could be a great tool or a hindering technology, depending on what point of view you take. I believe that is the point of view Barracuda and Vince have but they were not so eloquent.

Rafael

Found some interesting CPD4 videos from oversees heli pilots demonstrating hands off flying. Not a Falcon 3D...Its a Logo 10 but this is exactly how it works with the Falcon 3D when I have been using mine. These videos are much better quality than the ones I have been posting to YouTube. Thought I would share these. Follow the links below...

This is a good review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzs9mRhXa-4

another good one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjYT0H-qh-4

and another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcaOHmCArU

Last one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56YWaxfMyig

Ralph

I think they have a great place for a stable AP platform.

As for someone learning to fly and flicking a switch when things go bad, I don't see much use for them.

I see no problem for learning...as you get more comfortable start turning the sensitivity of the CPD4 down until you can do it totally without...Leaving the sensitivity up a little even then might help if you get disoriented...its really not a bad device...Learning how to fly breaking parts all the time can get expensive, discouraging and a new pilot may just give up...at least the CPD4 can get him in the air having some fun instead of being depressed all the time from making an expensive mistake...its not for everyone but it does work...I have flown my Falcon 3D once when it was turned down all the way and I could do it with difficulty but I managed a 5 min flight and I landed...I do agree with your point though and not knowing what to do if the CPD4 failed would be disasterous to a rookie. Of course any part failing in flight such as lack of tail rudder control the CPD4 will be no help at all with the heli spinning like a top.

I agree with Ralph.

I see the Copilot as something no different than say a Head Lock Gyro as far as being a technology tool that helps you get your Heli in the air so you can have fun.

Hey Pappy...thats what I was trying to say...its just another piece to the puzzle...think how hard heli's would be without the gyro...wow,,,did u check out the videos I uploaded from those guys overseas...you could tell they were excited about how it flew itself except for the inherit drift...The Logo 10 flew alot like my Falcon with the copilot. Its hard for pilots who learned the hard way to accept what this device does for a beginner...The savings from buying parts pays for itself in perhaps one flight crashing without it...I was speaking with Roger on the other thread. He is in Beirut and has only the forum as his support. He seems to be a nice person. Well, gotta go.
Ralph
See you on the Falcon 3D forum...

Hi thermal7 & everyone,

Am also interested in this new device being relatively new to the fascinating rc heli scene. It is mentioned in the FMA direct site ad that the FS8 Co-Pilot FM TXs are basically PPMs. Would you happen to know or can confirm if the FS8 it is compatible or can work with PCM or the newer 2.4 GHz TXs (e.g. Spektrum DX6/7 or even Futaba)? Would appreciate your feedback. Thanks.

FM radios ARE PPM radios.

The FS8 will work with PPM (FM) radios ONLY PCM technology is proprietary and not compatible across brands. If you want the failsafe features of the PCM, I can tell you that the FS8 has failsafe built in. You program the failsafe positions of the controls when setting up the sensors and receiver.

I do not know if FMA is planning on releasing a 2.4 GHz version of the FS8. The FS8 is a system that utilizes FMA's receiver coupled to the IR sensors. It does not work outside of the normal RC bands (35 & 72MHz) Maybe it's back to square 1 and need to re-engineer the CPD4 to work with the 2.4 systems.

Rafael

Thanks a lot Raf. It would also be better if the FS8 has compatibility options w/ other newer TX bands espec. the latest 2.4 GHz w/c uses the spread spectrum technology to combine FS8's co-piloting features as well as ability to fly the heli w/o fear the possbility of being "shot down" or vice-versa while in the field or with others flying but lets just wait & see...

Thanks Rafael for the enlightenment on the helicommand and FMA's systems. I wrongly assumed i knew what I was talking about and stand humbly before the readers of this post and apologize for being a know-it-all.
I was considering the FMA FS8 for the gf's new foamie plank to help her learn to fly it and possibly put it on my HBK2 later to help me with advanced FFF and loops. Sounds like you have experience using it on a more advanced scale than thermal does (no offense thermal) so was wondering if you thought it would be a good idea to use as a learning aid. I do have a AMA trial membership and have been to the 2 closest flying fields here but was basically told to come back when I got a real heli (I have a TREX also) so was very turned off by that experience. We have chosen to fly in a couple of places owned by family members and away from any known flying sites or airports. So our choices are limited to instruction by crash and rebuild or extreme sim time. I have FS One installed on my puter and we use it alot, but it doesn't compare to the real deal.
I know in your post I quoted here you are saying nay to my question, but considering the circumstances, is it still a nay? Money wasted? Thanks for your insight either way!


__________________________________________________ ___________________________________


Of all the things I ever lost....................................... I miss my mind the most!

A co-pilot (either version) is a good tool. I already said that. Learning on it is another story. If you HAVE to learn by yourself, (I do not recommend that you learn by yourself, but given your current situation and experience with the local clubs, might be your only option right now) it is possible that you will benefit from it's use. The problem arises when you need to advance and the equipment is holding you back.

I have read many posts of people that sear by the co-pilot system and the countless times that it has saved their helicopter. I have also read the countless posts of people that are against it because it is a crutch and it will hold you back. I see both points of view, and that is why I say that I will probably not recommend one. Probably being the key word. I like the way it performs on the plank that I have, and was considering installing one on a helicopter whenever i come across one that can be converted to a trainer. BUT I already know how to fly, this is to use with complete beginners that have no clue on RC flight.

I feel ashamed as a heli instructor pilot that your local club turned you away until you got a "real" heli. Currently, I'm working with 2-3 people in my club that have micro-electric helicopters. I do my best to get them in the air and I coach them along the way. 2 of them already are taking the plunge into bigger helicopters, thanks to my coaching and them watching me fly my bigger helis. If I had turned them away, they would be trying to fly their helis in a park or somewhere else and most likely be frustrated by now.

Rafael

The CPD4 does not have a reciever built in but rather it plugs into your reciever and your servos (pitch and roll) plug into it. there fore it is frequency independent. thermal7 and myself are both using it with the dx7 with no issues

Thats just wrong and makes all of us look bad. I feel the same about that as I do when they arrest some fireman for arson.

WOW Thanks for all the help. You have all answered a number of additional questions also. It seema a great number of you Fly (?) a Falcon 3D. I just ordered one to start . Planing on worhing my way up the line once I work things out.

I have some slight nerve damage from a broken neck but doing OK on the sim.

Thanks to all for the help.

This goes to PappyFarland or anyone familiar:

Just for clarification, you mentioned in your last post that the CPD4 (for CP helis) is frequency-independent or can be integrated w/ your heli's RX and servos and have used it w/ a DX7 (w/c I presume is Spektrum's 2.4GHz right?) w/o issues. However, Rafael23cc also mentioned in a previous post that: Does this mean that the CPD4 works with DX7 (again assuming your referring to Spektrum's 2.4Ghz TX band) w/o issues BUT the FS8 does not? If not, is it because the FS8 works only w/ an FMA RX or can still be integrated w/ your helis own RX or some other reason/s?

Aside from those mentioned, what are the notable differences betweenn the two flight stabilization systems-FS8 and CPD4? The FMA site doesn't seem to offer a clearer explanation on this except that it offers the 2 products w/ a similar feature description.

Hope you guys can enlighten more on these issues. Thanks.

JackStar07

The FS8 uses a "built in" reciever it only comes in 72 Mhz (not currently 35 Mhz as previously posted) it will not work with the Spectrum DX7 or any other 2.4 Ghz radio since it is outside that radio's frequency. The FS8 is more configurable than the cpd4 and it has many addons for it that may or may not suit you.

The CPD4 utilizes Your existing reciever. It will work with any model that uses 2 Servos (One Roll and One Pitch) including airplanes and Helicopters that have a single roll and a single pitch servo. There are no addons for the CPD4. The CPD4 is very basic but that is why its only 70 bucks. There are More advanced systems out there but you will pay more for them as well. The CPD4 has worked Very well for me. I have not tried the FS8 nor do I intend to since The CPD4 is all that I really wanted in the way of Stabilization.

The CPD4 uses IR sensors to find that Level position and must be calibrated before each use. Calibration is very simple and quick to do. The better you get at leveling the Model during calibration the Better the stabilization will be...

Since the CPD4 uses IR it does not do well in enviroments where the temperature difference is to low such as in doors or at night. Do NOT use the CPD4 inside... you may crash.

I use the CPD4 with the Spectrum DX7 and the AR7000. I think Ralph is using the AR6100 and the AR6000 on tow of his models with the DX7 and the CPD4 with no problems as well.

The Only issue I have experienced is that I work at an Active Airport and they have radar on the airfield. The radar is normally off on the weekends. but during the week if I do not wait till later in the evening it may be on and it causes glitching becuase of the frequency band of the dx7 (2.4 GHz) I dont think you will have any issues away from radar sites.

The FS8 will NOT work with the DX7 since it uses a built in 72 MHz receiver.

I hope this helps

PappyFarland typed his response faster than I did, but here is mine just in case you feel like reading a little more....


JackStar07:
Although I have never used a CPD4 I have an idea of how it works. The CPD4 gets connected between the receiver and the servos. The CPD4 is a sensor that corrects for level attitude. This feature makes it RF band independent but If I understand correctly, it will not handle CCPM helicopters.

The FS8 is a system that incorporates a receiver. Since it is a receiver, it can handle CCPM applications and the commands from the sensor are routed thru the receiver to the servos. The receiver knows which servos to move in order to "level" the aircraft. The receiver has a lot of interesting features like failsafe and mixing. It stores all this information as you set-up the system on your aircraft.

So there you have it. The basic difference between the CPD4 and the FS8. Both do the same thing in principle, but they do it thru different approaches.

Rafael

Thanks a lot to you both-PappyFarland and Rafael23cc for your respective clarificatory responses. It demystifies some aspects of this new technology with those unfamiliar w/ at least at its level of compatibility relative to different TX/RX bands. Others interested will also find your posts helpful. Thanks again.