David867

Wow, you guys have been havin some fun in here!! I've been here in Ontario workin, no flying for me, lots of wind and rain.
Lots of new people posting here, WELCOME TO EVERYONE!! Don't be too shy to ask anything!

Thanks Jim, I think I'm going to try the counterweights, I saw a video of the tail with the weight mod, and it was SOLID! Here's a picture of the weight mod, looks cool! http://www.runryder.com/fastphoto/63...il_weights.jpg
The plastic slider is really weak, lots of play, but I heard the "fuel tube mod" works well to eliminate the play. And here's a picture of the fuel tube mod: http://www.runryder.com/fastphoto/37322/100_0624.jpg
Lots of stuff you can do to the tail. I guess it's time to try some of these things out. I guess the oversized 9254 servo doesn't help, since the plastic just bends and the slider is only pushed from below.
I'll give these things a try and let you guys know how it works out, and of course, post the video results for y'all to see.
I'll try to get it working with the 11T pinion for now, if the weight mod works as well as I hope, then it'll be rock solid. I'm not sure which bolt/locking nuts I can use though, I'll get the part's list from the trex forums.

Hey Chris, too bad about the crash, but just fix it up and get back up there! Ya, you'll want to try the sim first though, when you can hover in the sim in all orientations, then take up your heli, don't do it until you can hover nose in and sides! I know exactly how you felt, the first time I hovered, I tried to stay low to the ground, but crashed as a result, it's best to just bring it up high and fight it for a while. Assuming you've done all preflight checks. Something to check is your swash plate, it should move left/right/forward/backwards linearly, according to your right stick. The walkera remote has a dual rate AND expo adjustments, make sure that normal mode works linearly, very similar to STUNT mode. That caused me to crash a couple times too. I always flew in stunt mode since it's linear, I never knew how to adjust it for normal until after I got my Trex450. It doesn't sound like your one way bearing is shot, if your tail spins then the one way bearing is locking properly. It's probably just the nut that holds the main gear to the shaft. If you crashed hard enough to release that, you've probably bent the feathering shaft and main shaft, and probably the blades, you should get some new ones. Do you see damage on the blades?

Flyerbug ran his belt very loose, more loose than mine. I have mine loose enough to go past the half way mark, it's still a little tight. I don't know why the align belts have been acting so weird, but a lot of people have complained about it. I can't wait to try the orange belts!

[]TEX[]

It's due to improper pulley alignment. One of the demons in the 450. Most ppl get the HMX belts or buy Microheli replacement tail case and idler puley.

Your belt should be tight BTW.

David867

Ya, he had a crash with his boom before, so it might have been a little bent, not noticeable by the eye.
How tight is tight? I did as the align manual recommended, 3/4 across, a little past the half way point.

I think I'll remove the tail idler pulley, seems like lots of people are doing that and having good results.

[]TEX[]

Well what I meant was that even NIB kits have the problem. It seems that head speed closer to 3000 shread the belts. Yes the stock idler pulley is a main cause of it, but leave it on. Get a micro heli pulley with guides on it.

[]TEX[]

Loosen the boom, pull it tight and hold it while you tighten it. Forget the half way 3/4 mess. Put a drop or two if thin CA to keep it from working loose. If you need to ever remove the bnoom, just give the boom a 1/4 turn either way to break the CA.

dooleyje

Sorry, the belts should never be tight. A min of 3/4 push to the other side is recommended in all the kits I have ever built for the last 13 years. I removed my idler pully because of the teeth of the belt were being pinch together really close and I would get a tick once in a while in the tail, This solved the problem.

Jim

[]TEX[]

I won't be flying with loose belts any time soon, I see what you are saying with the idler though.

David867

Haha, mixed solutions here.

Well, I do pull on the boom to make the belt sorta tight, but not too tight. I turn the tail blades while holding the main blades, with moderate pressure, the belt does slip on the gears, I'm not sure how hard the air pushes on the blades, but I'm trying to tighten the belt enough so that it's just enough to keep the belt from slipping, but not too much, I know a tight belt adds a lot of friction to the system and is just as bad as a gear mesh that's too tight. As for the pulley, I assumed idler pullies are a tried tested and true piece of equipment in all belt systems, so I left it on. I've never had the clicking problem, but that's exactly what was happening to flyerbug's tail, the teeth were getting pushed really hard and catching in between the gear teeth. I think my teeth rounded off, so that the clicking wasn't occuring. I have noticed that my idler pullies have had black rubber on them, that must mean there's some rubbing going on there. That can't be good, so maybe I'll follow the crowd with the removal of it.

I think I'll just throw the orange belt on there, and it'll work for a long long time ;o)

maddog57

hi guys,

well... after i was done " pouting" last night [haha] i got the G2 on the bench and what a surprise, the oneway brg. is not the problem. found i had not lok-tited the two set screws that lock the t-shaped shaft sleeve to the main shaft [under the reduction gear][ Tex you were right]. after i corrected the problem, all seems fine. like i say, it's always the little things that get ya. after work today i'm gonna give it another shot. this time i'll be more agressive on the throttle to get it up in the air quicker and fight it in the air, as david said.

i've spent hours on the sim and now have very little problem hovering nose in/out, going side to side, even a little backwards flight. maybe i'm too confident, but the most i can do is crash again and like drobin says, if you're not crashing, you're not flying,hahaha. I WANNA FLY!


later, chris



ps- i am using the "training wheels", thihk that made my crash minimal in damage.

David867

Hey Chris, glad to hear that you've got it going again! You got lucky!

I think you should look over your settings before you head out there. It sounds like your throttle curve setting is dangerously low, if it's low, you WON'T have much control, which is probably why the heli took off and crashed nose first, it takes an expert to fly a heli with a LOW headspeed. From the little damage caused after your crash, I think your headspeed was dangerously low. If you aggressively take it up in the air like that, you'll be fine going up, but when trying to come down, you'll have a lot of problems, it'll wobble around and be very uncontrolled and unstable.
Check over your cyclic rates in each mode, compare stunt vs. normal to make sure they're similar, they should be VERY similar, that is, check the swash movement to stick movement amounts.

With a high headspeed, you'll damage a lot more in a crash, but you'll be in control and the chances of you crashing are reduced dramatically, assuming you have all the skills to control the heli properly, and it sounds like you do!

You're getting a 2nd chance here, let's make it a great flight!

David.

hdavid11580

Maddog57
You are right I think, The number one problem with first time heli guys is wanting to keep it low and slowly getting it off the ground. I do a lot of teaching and until you get some comfort level with the heli the slow take off will keep you in ground effect to long. My trex 500 wants to lean to the left and then forward on a slow launch, the trex 600 wants to drop the tail and the 450 models want to lean right. You just have to get to the point where you don't care if you crash it (cause you will) and fly it. The rule of thumb is diameter of rotor circle turned on its side. That is the distance you need off the ground to get out of ground effect.

On the Eagel Tree eLogger. Flyachopper, thanks the 6 pole figure worked. Right now my head speed is 1100 at center stick in normal and jumps to 1600 in idel up 1 and 1750 in idel up 2. Pitch is running +-12 and had to slack out the center of the pitch curve in normal, it was just to twichy. Still figuring out all the info and how to match it with what I remember of the flight. But being able to get RPM/head speed during a roll or loop is kool. The graph lets you match by time the watts, and pack volts, curent etc so it looks real easy to see where you have to much of this or to little of that. All in all I like it. Very nice fathers day present from my kids. I'll see if I can figure out how to post one of the graphs.

First good day in a while for wind (none) so did a little playing after work. I like the 500, small enough to fit in the car but enough weight to be stable. Very predictable in a loop or roll. The Trex 600 is still my fav it just seems to go where I want it.

Dave H

dooleyje

TEX: I am sorry to disagree with you but that is not a recommendation from the manufactors. A tight belt will bind up everything. Even the 3/4 rule is all most too tight. Lets take example of the new little Gaui 200. The manual clearly calls for you to loosen up the boom and tighten the belt that when pressure is applied turing the tail while holding the head will cause the belt to "click a tooth", just like David does. The electrics are a different world than the nitros so the same rules do not always apply. I have not and would not ever tell the folks here bad advise. I am going on my 40 plus years in this hobby and almost 15 years of heli experience. If it could happen, I have had it myself so I done the drill. I try to give sound advise and direction point the folks in the right directions to trouble shoot, to find and fix the problem on their own. As always with the troubled bird not in front of me I can only point to the many areas a problem can originate. In my club we have several factory sponsored pilots and a lot of my info is from them on the new trends and how they do things. They do a lot of R&D so it is fun to see the new stuff and the thinking out of the box fixes they come up with.

As far as using CA on the tail boom I have found that the Trex clones tail block gripe the boom very nicely. If you go too tight you will put a crimp in the boom. On a lot of nnitro birds the tail block it there for look mostly so you had to come up with Ideas to lock the boom on. CA is one solution, Pin it with a screw is another and wrapping Tape around the boom is another. I use CA on my boom to help hold the tail servo mount and the rod guides on. I also CA my skids on the landing gear. I know David uses CA and JB Weld for different things. Like Tex said a little twist and it will pop loose.

I learn a bunch from you my friends everyday and I am very proud of you. Thats the reason for the tricks of the Trade.

Belts: The belts came on helis for me when the JR ERGO came out ala '95 or so. All others had a torque wire. The torque tube or wire is the best connection to the tail because of the rubberband effect the belt will put on the works. The only problem with the torque tube is the crash ability. Take a boom out and you will buy a lot of parts. Dig a tail blade in and you will replace the bevel gears everytime. But there was hardly any drag on the system as the belt will produce. The belt also will cause static electricity because it rubs on the right side of the tail block and the roller in the back will slide rather than roll. ( Davids observation of the belt dust.) Some will spray silly-cone lub on the belt and some will file a little space on the inside of the tail block/boom and some will banjo string tight the belt so it can't move. You have to decide for yourself if any down side of what you do will out weigh the benefits.


Jim

dooleyje

Maddog glad for the fix. Now you are a heli-NUT. May I suggest that when you practice that you get yourself a happy place that you can put the heli in if you have a mind glitch. Make sure you have about 2 degrees of neg pitch in normal mode so you can get the heli down. At first just get the heli light of the skids to see if the heli will want to swing, pitch or act crazy.
I do this everytime I fly. When things look good I will take it to about 4ft and check it out again and trim it if needed. Now land it and get your thoughts together and now lift the heli about 4ft off the ground. You will be past ground affect and it will be a lot nicer Now set it down and do it again and again till your confidence is built. The heli will hover best at about 4/5 ft . While you are doing the exercise you are also learning to sit the heli down as softly as you can. Before long you will be banging it off the ground like a pro. A note on the training gear, get rid of them as soon as possible. A trick I used for my students is to shorten the rod and after a while the mind will not be dependent on them. They make the heli fly funny if you have not balanced the heli with them in place.

Have Fun learning this hobby because I think that is 90% of the fun and flying is 10% of the the fun. I always wanted to know how things do the things they do. You should be proud of yourself that you did the trouble shooting and fixed the malfunction. Before long you will teach us and give us some tricks to try.

Have a Ball,

Jim

David867

As always Jim, you've given some great advice!

Ya Chris, I didn't mean that you should just go out there and give it full throttle and fight it in the air. I should have been more detailed like Jim. You want to make sure everything is working, while being light on the skids, or in a tiny hover. Just don't stay in the hover 1ft off the ground for too long, it'll get you into trouble. Jim's recommended exercises would be the best way to get a good feel for the heli, and practice taking off/landing properly. I listened to every word he spoke, and that resulted in a lot of success with my RC helis, it's your turn to do the same!

Magic Hook

Hey TEX, Congrats on the 600e. As crazy as it sounds I bought some 600 upgrades and I dont even have the kit yet! Just head stuff, control arms, and metal bell cranks. I did get the torque tube also. I am shopping for the kit right now. Modefo's has the best price I can find today, 430.00 free shipping for the GF. (http://www.modefosheli.com/__daily__score__) I am hoping you can tell me the difference between the CF and the GF besides the 70 bucks. I am not concerned about any weight difference. My 450 is CF and my 500 is CF so I have zero experience with the GF frame. Looks good though in the pictures. Any idea about flexability? I also ordered three of the Zippy 6s 5000 packs. I am leaving for vacation Friday so I will likely hold my order until I get back and I can work on it. It would make me sleepless knowing it was here. LOL

I had grounded my 500 when I found the screw that holds the mixing arm into the seasaw was stripped, or rather the seasaw was stripped. The new metal seasaw and metal control arms for the head arrived today. I did not get them on before the thunder storms moved in so it waits for the lightning to clear for a test flight. As much as I like that 500 Align should have made that seasaw out of metal from the start IMO. I almost backed my 450 into a tree this morning. I am working on flying backwards and was concentrating so hard I did not see it until it was close enought to blow leafs off the branch when I corrected!

flyachopper:
Bring it! If you get in this neck of the woods, let me know we will hook you up. I am going to Alaska in August. Its my plan to get my first full scale heli ride. Reading your posts about being in one sold me on that.

dooleyje

CF is carbon fiber and the GF is glass fiber. Some folks perfer the glass fiber over the carbon because of static glitch in the carbon offerings.

Jim

hdavid11580

Maddog, glad you found the problem, good luck on flying today. Just relax and have fun. I never started out to do what Dooleyje stated but have been doing it without thinking about it and is a very good way to get past the launch problems. The comment about a happy place is more then correct. I teach all my students the same thing and has saved a lot of crash problems. I work (play) in a hobby store so we test/show/demo launch into a hover constantly. With all the things in the store the ground effect is BAD so you have to jump it off the floor to get out of it. After a while you just do it.

We run into so many different types of heli's that people bring in with the sad eyes and say I can't get it to fly HELP!!. David 867 is right start up slow and watch the heli it will tell you what is happening and what it needs. Then when you are happy with it push a little and go for a little safe space.

Magic, I am interested in how the metal seasaw works. I have not seen any problems with the 500 yet but know it will come and the trex-tuning web site says there was a big difference in the handling from plastic to metal. I may order them any way and swap.

Dave H

[]TEX[]

We can disagree, it's a free country and it's not my heli.

Magic Hook

Dave,

Its possible I just stripped the screw when I built the heli but I dont think so. The screw that goes through the mixing arm and into the seasaw still had black plastic stuck to it solid where the CA had done its job but the screw turned somehow reaming out the plastic. I just put one pack through the 500. I will say the feel is completely different, more sensitive to input for sure, but locked in. I will run a half dozen in it tomorrow and let you know more.

maddog57

hi fellas,


well back to the bench i go. yep, crashed again. got it up about 4 ft. for, oh maybe 2 sec. before i lost it this time. again, it all happened so fast i'm really not sure what happened. i don't think i have pitch/throttle curves set right. also don't know what they should be. i tried using the manuals instructions and recomended settings. the pitch i think i did right but the others, i don't know. there is no readout, so how do i know what i'm setting it to? setting up the electronics has me confused.

any education on this would be a great help.


chris

drobin

I got to go out tonight just before dark.Flew one pack off and happy to report,no problems.It hovers great.In my backyard,I mostly slow hover.Tail is solid.I have to work on the trims but nothing is uncomfortable.I got 8 minutes out of a pack.I don't go any longer than that.It had 11.97v in it when I came in.It is a 2100mHA 15c pack from helidirect.
Chris,sorry to hear what happened.But keep plugging away.All of a sudden,everything will fall into place.Don't give up.

David867

Hey Chris, sorry to hear about the 2nd crash. That's not bad, you got it up to 4 ft, which means you had throttle and positive pitch. The problem might be in the cycilc curves (Dual rates and expo), and the throttle curve. Don't worry about the crashes, I did exactly what you did, and tried to set the curves using the manual, but failed miserably. After 2 crashes, and a lot of troubleshooting, I finally figured it out. If you're interested in how I set my curves, I put my troubleshooting learnings in a file found here www.geocities.com/extreme_bass2000/ . Hopefully I can save you from some of the trial and error I had to go through to get it all working properly. It would have been nice if the manual was complete, but it's not. These crashes force you to rebuild the heli, when you rebuild it, you'll learn everything about it, and personalize it, after that, it'll be much easier to fly it. So these crashes are all a part of the fun!

Even though you can't tell what your channel outputs are, you can see exactly what the heli will do by performing the adjustments while the helicopter and remote are turned on, with the motor leads UNPLUGGED!!! Very important there! If you switch between stunt mode and normal mode while adjusting the exp and rate curves, you can set them up so that they're exactly the same, in number terms, that means you've got rates of 100%, and a linear pitch curve, or 0 expo. That's what you want to use to learn. I crashed once because my expo made the center stick area soft, and extremes very hard, so I moved the stick and nothing happened, then all of a sudden it would just react at a fast rate, you don't want that when learning.

As for throttle curve, you can plug a servo into the thrott channel, and plug the ESC into the batt channel, the amount your servo moves is linearly proportional to the % throttle. 50% throttle means 50% servo travel. Checking the throttle channel output isn't necessary, you can just turn it to MAX. You'll get a high headspeed, but that means you'll have a very easily to control heli, and it'll be very stable in flight, that's the most important thing. When you crash, it'll break more parts, but you're less likely to crash if you've got control of it.

[]TEX[]

This should help you out Chris. Not sure if you have a pitch gage yet, but you need to have one.

http://www.trextuning.com/setuptrex....Pitch%20Curves

David867

Ya, TEX's setup page is a great reference as well, it's a little advanced for the WK-0701 since you don't have a screen but it is definitely worth a detailed read-through so you understand what pitch curves/throttle curves and stuff. The control tests are great as well, did you perform these before your flight? If so, your heli should have performed normally. You've watched Ray's DVD's, so you know a lot of the same principles presented there.

I just checked page 42 of that PDF, if you've got the PCM radio, switch 10 and 11 should adjust your " pitch curve/pitch range" and "throttle curve and cyclic response". To check these, power up both the heli and remote, and flip the switchs ONLY ONE ON AT A TIME, and adjust V1 and V2, move the sticks, and see what they do, you can adjust the dials until the heli responds to your stick inputs as it should. Confused how it should respond? For pitch range and curve, just switch to STUNT mode and make it the same as that, it's linear, in normal mode, it'll auto adjust to -3 deg pitch or so. As long as you set mid stick in STUNT mode to 0 deg of pitch(I talk about how I did that in page 32 of the PDF). As for adjusting the cyclic curve and throttle curve, do the flipping back between STUNT/NORM to get the cyclic similar, and turn throttle up so that it's at max, which is fully clockwise.

This radio's very hard to work with, but don't worry, once you understand it, it works fairly well. I got it flying pretty nicely.

maddog57

hey,


Tex, thanx for the link to the setup page you posted. it's now in my favorites for future reference. i have a pitch gauge. everybody here said to get one. i can see we'd be lost w/o it.

david, yeah Rays DVDs make it look easy, he has that nice TX w/ LCD screen so you can see the #s as you enter them. the WK-0701 isn't as easy, it is the PCM version. plus the G2 manual sux in my opinion. i think that screws me up more than anything. when i flip the dip switches the colors on the graph on the front change to different colors than what the manual says they should be on #11. like i said last time, the pitch was the only one i was comfortable with when trying to adj. the settings. had the pitch gauge on the blade and could see where i was setting it at , but couldn't tell on the others. i have your PFD file in a folder at my bench and refered to it alot. it all boils down to experience and i'm lacking that cuz i'm new at this. but i will get it. thanx for your help.

drobin, glad you had a good flight yesterday. sounds like all your work has paid off. still on for tomorrow at Brennans right? i'll be there about 4pm.

thanx all, chris