Can anyone either explain or post a link to a site that comprehensively covers checking and setting up cyclic pitch please? (Not collective)

Covering points such as;

1) Mechanical setup - setting servo arm lengths for best endpoint (ATV) settings
2) Tx setup - dual rate and expo on pitch and roll
3) Binding in the corners
4) Over-pitching when combined with collective.
5) Where and how is cyclic pitch measured?
6) Physical and virtual cyclic rings
7) How the method may differ for eCCPM or mechanically mixed.
8) Anything else of particular relevance.

Preferably with images of some type.

Even the old favorite Raptor Technique seems to have nothing.

I would like to confirm my own understanding and I think it would become a useful resource for others.

not needed

Sorry but I don't think you read my post.

(I said "not collective" )

I downloaded the EHBG and searched it for the phrase "cyclic pitch"....Nothing, not one single mention.

After I woke up (most of it is pretty tedious stuff) I opened one of the videos but fell asleep about 15 seconds into it. Boy, that guy could put an insomniac, hyperactive, coffee addicted, speed junkie to sleep.

I know the differences between mechanical versus electronic mixing. What I said was "how the setup (cyclic pitch adjustment method) might be different for mechanical vs eCCPM" (if at all)

alrighty, whatever works...........

by collective pitch I was refering to the heli, not to the actual collective pitch mechanism.

GL finding your answer...............

I just re-read my post above, sorry if it sounded a little sharp. Not intended.

Cyclic pitch is mostly going to come down to how far you can set your Aileron and Elevator limits with out the inner swash rubbing on the main shaft or the flybar cage hitting the blade grips. You would check it just like you do with collective: set the blades at 0 pitch and put on your pitch gauge, then (with the blades in line with the boom) push full right aileron and measure the pitch while holding the stick to full right. For myself, I think I'm flying with about 7.5-8 degrees of cyclic and +/- 11 of collective on a 450SE.

Mechanical setup is mostly irrelevant here as there are other key things you need to be doing with mechanical setup (e.g. getting all the arms parallel and perpendicular). If setup right (see "Finless" Bob White's videos) the amount of Cyclic pitch you can achieve will be dependent on your helicopter's design and not on linkage lengths.

As far as binding goes, it's okay to bind in the corners. It's not okay to bind full left, right, up, or down. If you're not using a cyclic ring, you have to envision that circular path and make sure nothing with in that circle is binding (because it would be tough luck for a washout arm to lock up during a piro-flip ).

Dual rate and exponential settings are going to be based on your personal preference (just as anything else should be), so choose what feels good to you.

And I could be wrong, but I don't think mechanical mixing would be any different than CCPM. Either way you're looking for the same things when setting up linkage lengths, and your pitch is going to be a factor after that is all setup and you're adjusting travel for aileron and elevator.

Sorry if I mis-understood any of the questions, and please feel free to let me know if I botched anything up. Again, check out Bob White's videos at as your best reference especially "CCPM 1" and "CCPM 2".

Good luck!
- Chaz

chazdraves,
Great - that is what I was looking for.

Any Raptor pilots want to suggest values for a 50 running a Quick UK head? (which I believe has identical geometry to the original TT head)

As for cyclic rings, I was flying mode 1 (Japan) but changed to mode 2 earlier this year because it felt better. Of course, you cannot use a cyclic ring with mode 1 anyhow, but I could use one now. So how essential / useful would one be for someone starting to feel their way into 3D?

I also felt the same as you said, incorrect setup and binding could lead to a catastrophic failure so I found it strange that while so much is available for all other aspects of heli setup, searching turned up next to nothing for cyclic pitch.

No problem. I wouldn't say a ring is necessary for starting 3D (I've been doing well enough without one for months), but it is vital when you decided to begin piro-flips. That's the first big trick I can think of where you'll risk pushing into the corners.

Again, I would highly recommend the videos for any setup questions. If you're like me, they should really help you not only know what to do but also understand why to do it. As far as I know, there's nothing available in print (rather, on the Web) that is near as valuable as those videos Bob White has put together. For my two cents, I would say they're necessary watching for anyone in heli's that has never seen them.

Good luck!
- Chaz

In idle up set your pitch to zero. That should be mid stick. (use idle up)
Verify you swash is level by checking at several points about the rotation of the rotor, if you've been flying you probably have some right trim to compensate for translating, take it out and make sure at the cardinal points you're at 0.

Set the blades fore/aft and give full right aileron and measure the pitch of the main blades. Anything over 7 is over kill for your stated style of flying, you could go 8 but you need to know when to back off collective or cyclic when you start bogging.

If you followed RaptorTech then your atvs will be fine, if they are way over or under 100 then adjust your servo arm lengths accordingly (we are talking a mechanical mix machine here) on a CCPM bird if you have to go way under 50 or way over 60 in the swash menu its time to look at servo arm length.

In most helicopters I have worked on (quite a few) this wont bind the swash in the corner. I set mine up with 8 and it doesnt bind but thats with the Kasama head, I was running 7 with the QuickUK

Turn the blades 90 degrees so they are straight out left and right and set the elevator throw the same way.

In MOST cases you will have more than enough throw for whatever sane flying you want to do long before your swash binds in the corners. (this is one issue I had with the rays dvd set)

Anything over a total of 17 degrees of combined pitch will bog most engines and stall the blades, at the very least, the airfoil becomes grossly inefficent.

I've fixed several slow roll and pitch helicopters for people simply because they had too much throw and were bogging the engine.

As you become proficent at energy management you can get away with more and only use it when you need it, this setup will keep you out of trouble.

For general flying, a cyclic ring is no big deal, I dont run one because its hard to snap roll my Funtana with it on there If you are venturing into piroflips and the like, its a good idea.

BCH,
Thanks - I think this might be a golden nugget
My collective is set up as perfect as I can get but I've had a suspicion that I might be overdoing the cyclic. Therefore I would appreciate if you could elaborate on that point a little more. (what did you find, how did you re-adjust etc)

Also, you mentioned an issue with Ray's DVDs. I was thinking of buying them soon, can you explain that point a little more.

And in general, do you think it is worthwhile someone like me buying Rays? I have pretty good experience but I know I still have several holes in my knowledge. Would Ray's help or would they be too basic?

chazdraves,
Last night I downloaded a couple of the vids. Haven't had time to study them in detail but what I looked at so far seems to be pretty good to ensure the key points are not missed. I shall be studying more closely soon!! Thanks again!!

No problem. I make a point of burning a CD copy of those movies (which is approved by Finless) for anyone I know starting on heli's. Some of it is very basic, but it's all worth reviewing.

Good luck (and call me "Chaz" ),
- Chaz

One example, a fellow was bellyaching about his slow roll rate. He did a little online research and bought green paddles. That didnt help. He bought hard dampeners. No help. He moved to the outer holes on the washout arms, it made it squirelly but it didnt roll any faster. He finally brought it up here and I flew it.

I then performed the check I outlined and saw he had 9 degrees of cyclic. He had performed the Rays setup where you set up the helicopter just short of binding the swash in the back right corner (you are safe on the left that way because you usually have right trim to counter translating).

I reduced his throws to 7 degrees of cyclic, he was griping the whole time I was taking his precious control throw away. (i told him he was free to do it his way but since he drove over an hour he might want to hush and listen)

1 pass down the flight line doing roll after roll with no bogging and he was on his way to pick up lunch.

I've fixed others the same way.

BCH,
Thanks.

I did a quick check last night and I have collective currently at +-10deg and cyclic is measuring at around 7.5deg. Based on what I have read above, this doesn't seem too excessive but I will try backing it off a degree or so and see if it feels any different.

Just for reference, I already have red dampers, been using the outer hole on the washout all the time and recently installed yellow paddles (which I believe are sold in the US / Europe in green at 20 grams)

Apart from that one gripe you have with Ray's DVD's, would you generally recommend them for someone like me. I.E. I can set up a heli so that it will fly pretty well, but am always open to tips and techniques that will put the icing on the cake.

Chaz,
I am sorry - I know that Bob White has done a fantastic job on the Finless Bob videos but I tried watching the one on pitch and throttle curves last night. I really tried to be appreciative but I found myself squirming in my seat and just had to skip forward through the video. They would be far more effective if they were slightly scripted and about half or quarter as long.

I'm not saying I could do any better BTW!!

Anyhow, this is why I am asking about the quality of Rays DVDs. I don't want to buy them and be bored. Are there any sample downloads available to get a taster of what to expect?

No, that's very fair. I never said he was a master of entertainment

I found myself squirming a bit as well, but I was able to watch them while at work, so I didn't feel right complaining about boredom!

Good luck,
- Chaz

In my review of the electric series I wrote "These are not eye candy for model helicopters, I also wouldn't suggest watching them before driving long distances or operating heavy machinery"

They are scripted but there's lots of corrections with sub titles. He's not the least bit entertaining, but the information is good and presented well.

To answer your question, based on my estimation of your knowlege level from our conversations you would honestly be bored and feel that you wasted your money. Will you pickup a nugget or two? Yes, sure. I appreciated the way he did a few things differently than me but I can't say I "learned" much by watching them and they drag on like the English Patient (a movie that was probably longer than the actual war).

The E series is another matter, I've learned quite a few things watching 7, 8, and 9 but its an area I havent devoted a whole lot of time on. Infact I'll be applying some of the things I picked up from the e series during the upcoming Trex SA and Mini Titan reviews.

Reviews for the SA and Mini Titan, eh? I'm thrilled to hear it! Any news on the 600E/N reviews?

- Chaz

(Sorry, no intention to hijack, just curious)

Nope. I'm told we will get a Vibe 50 when they hit the street but thats been pushed back to November from "mid summer"

The submitted awaiting publication reviews are the
Aerochopper Co-Axial
Hirobo EVO 50

The current reviews I have on my bench are

Helimax AXE CP
Trex 450SA
TT Mini Titan
Rays Electric and eCCPM DVD Set

supposedly coming
Knight 50

One of these days
JR Vibe 50

Hey, BH, care to share the load on the reviews? I could help you with some of those, specially the mini titan, or anything else that comes your way, like the TRex 600 E or N.

Rafael

Barracuda,
Regarding Ray's DVDs - Thanks - Now I can save the money on spend it on some more useless bling!!!

I went through my entire setup last night. Actual pitch angles were not too far off before I started, but I went back to basics because my endpoints and subtrims were a little off.

Collective
End Points 100 / 107 (Pitch frame is at full stroke at this setting)
Reset the long links on the head to give exactly 0deg at 50% on the curve and the throttle stick centered
Collective range is +- 10.5deg (with Quick UK head block, and washout. Other parts are standard)

Aileron
Servo centered with 0 subtrim & trim centered
End Points 100/100
This gave about 7.5deg aileron cyclic and it was just on the verge of binding.
I backed it off to 6deg using 65% on Dual Rate.

Elevator
Servo centered with 0 subtrim and trim centered
End Points 100/100
This gave about 7deg elevator cyclic with no sign of binding
I set it to 6deg using 78% on Dual Rate

No hint of binding in the corners.

Set my expos to -50% (Futaba) on both AIL and ELE in all modes)

I have set this for all flight modes for now, I will adjust individually at the field. This is all with the swash plate level, I know I will need to trim it out at the filed for translation.

Should be okay?

One question, after having got the pitches perfectly, then when you trim AIL and ELE out for a stable hover, do you prefer to use trim or sub-trim?

I just bump the trim. If the swash is level and the cg is on it should be pretty darn close.

Thanks for all the help here, and I'd just like to add that I presumed correct but wanted confirmation because I was getting head bogging at quite mild settings. It made me suspect I was doing the checks incorrectly.

As it turned out (and I sort of suspected), the problem was mainly down to an old muffler choking my engine's top end. Just fitted a Hatori 3D2 muffler (that I had been impatiently waiting for) and it now feels like I could run plus/minus 20 deg colletive and another 30 degrees of cyclic (just kidding, but you get the picture eh??) This thing rocks, together with the YS50!!