The new Tornado sport jet
11-10-2011, 06:42 AM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
We did no such thing if you look at the manual it gives both methods
1.5 lb on the nose or 12 3/4 inches from the leading edge of the wing measured at the wing root.
We have built about 40 airplanes for customers and ever one was exactly the same 1.5lb on the nose.
11-10-2011, 06:56 AM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
I always find with these sort of things if you take it to an extreme it can be come clearer.
What weight would be on the each wheel if the aeroplane weighed 100Ton
What weight would be on the each wheel if the aeroplane weighed 100Ton
11-10-2011, 07:06 AM
#1703
RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: Xairflyer
I always find with these sort of things if you take it to an extreme it can be come clearer.
What weight would be on the each wheel if the aeroplane weighed 100Ton
I always find with these sort of things if you take it to an extreme it can be come clearer.
What weight would be on the each wheel if the aeroplane weighed 100Ton
10 ton as the nose is holding about 10% of the AUW.
11-10-2011, 07:08 AM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: Xairflyer
I always find with these sort of things if you take it to an extreme it can be come clearer.
What weight would be on the each wheel if the aeroplane weighed 100Ton
I always find with these sort of things if you take it to an extreme it can be come clearer.
What weight would be on the each wheel if the aeroplane weighed 100Ton
Exactly....
According to Modellbau it will still weigh 1.5 Lb on the front gear.
Now I have to go weigh mine.
11-10-2011, 07:42 AM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
Copied from that other site
The 1.5 on the nose wheel is based on part from this method
This method is how I go about checking CG on a plane that weighs too much to put on a CG machine or lift.
Have the plane all assembled RTF minus fuel. Find a place where you can put the nose of the plane up against a wall. Take a level and prop up the tail wheel till the fuse is sitting level. Your gonna have to take the hatch off in most cases to set the level on.
Once the plane is sitting level, mark on the ground the two points where the main wheels are with masking tape and draw a line right where the wheels contact the tape. Then make a mark where the center of the tail wheel sits in the same manner. Its gonna be on whatever you propped the tail up with. (I use magazines)
Its also a good time to measure from the wall, how far back the recommended CG is. Save that number for later.
What you are looking for at this point is the distance to each wheel from the tip of the spinner. (which should be touching the wall at this point)
I use a long straightedge to get the distances
Lets say you come up with theses numbers:
LH main - 22 inches
RH main - 22 inches
Tail wheel - 70 inches
Now get a scale and place it under each wheel individually. You will have to re-adjust the other wheels to keep the plane sitting level. Add more magazines.
(If you have three scales you can get the weights at the same time but make sure the plane is level)
Remember to put the hatch on after you level the plane before you weigh each wheel. You gonna wind up with three weights. One for each wheel.
Lets say you come up with these numbers
LH main - 9lbs
RH main - 9lbs
tail wheel - 5lbs
Now its just a simple math problem to find where the CG sits right now on the plane.
Weight x ARM (distance) = Moment
22x9=198
22x9=198
70x5=350
Now add the total of all the moments and the total of all the weights.
Weights 9+9+5 = 23lbs
moments 198+198+350 = 746
Then divide the total moments by the total weights.
746 divided by 23 = 32.43
That number 32.43 is "in inches" how far back from the tip of the spinner to where the plane balances right now.
Compare that to the distance that you measured earlier to the recommended CG location.
If you are off one way or another adjust items then recalculate the weights. The distances (or ARM's) aren't going to change so you already have those numbers.
It may sound confusing and a lot of work but it really only takes about ten minutes to do it.
This is generally how full scale planes are balanced. You cant go lift one of them by your fingers or stick it on a CG machine.
The 1.5 on the nose wheel is based on part from this methodThis method is how I go about checking CG on a plane that weighs too much to put on a CG machine or lift.
Have the plane all assembled RTF minus fuel. Find a place where you can put the nose of the plane up against a wall. Take a level and prop up the tail wheel till the fuse is sitting level. Your gonna have to take the hatch off in most cases to set the level on.
Once the plane is sitting level, mark on the ground the two points where the main wheels are with masking tape and draw a line right where the wheels contact the tape. Then make a mark where the center of the tail wheel sits in the same manner. Its gonna be on whatever you propped the tail up with. (I use magazines)
Its also a good time to measure from the wall, how far back the recommended CG is. Save that number for later.
What you are looking for at this point is the distance to each wheel from the tip of the spinner. (which should be touching the wall at this point)
I use a long straightedge to get the distances
Lets say you come up with theses numbers:
LH main - 22 inches
RH main - 22 inches
Tail wheel - 70 inches
Now get a scale and place it under each wheel individually. You will have to re-adjust the other wheels to keep the plane sitting level. Add more magazines.
(If you have three scales you can get the weights at the same time but make sure the plane is level)
Remember to put the hatch on after you level the plane before you weigh each wheel. You gonna wind up with three weights. One for each wheel.
Lets say you come up with these numbers
LH main - 9lbs
RH main - 9lbs
tail wheel - 5lbs
Now its just a simple math problem to find where the CG sits right now on the plane.
Weight x ARM (distance) = Moment
22x9=198
22x9=198
70x5=350
Now add the total of all the moments and the total of all the weights.
Weights 9+9+5 = 23lbs
moments 198+198+350 = 746
Then divide the total moments by the total weights.
746 divided by 23 = 32.43
That number 32.43 is "in inches" how far back from the tip of the spinner to where the plane balances right now.
Compare that to the distance that you measured earlier to the recommended CG location.
If you are off one way or another adjust items then recalculate the weights. The distances (or ARM's) aren't going to change so you already have those numbers.
It may sound confusing and a lot of work but it really only takes about ten minutes to do it.
This is generally how full scale planes are balanced. You cant go lift one of them by your fingers or stick it on a CG machine.
11-10-2011, 01:05 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
Dr. Honda you are absolutely right for the most part. Your calculations work great for small GA airplanes but for big stuff it's a little more complex than that.
I'm a Checkairman on the MD11 and also instruct at Boeing in Miami on the 737,757 & 767. Moments on all real airplanes are precisely calculated and equipment is places exactly in those locations. Every piece of equipment has a moment calculated and a % of MAC. Installation is the same on every single airplane. If it was not the weight and balance graphs would be off.
On RC planes this method cannot be done because everybody installs things in a different location even if the instructions say not to do it.
Everybody is an expert which complicates things in the RC world so things should be kept simple.
I have logged over 1500 flight on Tornados this year and I am telling you guys on our airplane 12 3/4 inches or 1.5 lb on the nose is correct for the general publics flying style and easy of handling of this airplane. Now somebody like KC which has lots of turbine experience he can move the CG to his flight style which he has done.
The empty weight of your airplane for the Version 1 or Version 2 Tornado's should be 14lb give or take 1/2 lb with a P60 or 15.5 lb give or take 1/2 lb with P70,K80
If Your plane weighs more than this you have not followed instructions and added extra things to the plane.
So I recommend you use the conversional CG method to calculate your CG. Let's keep this simple guys it's not rocket science.
Now anybody wanting to have some fun and if you are in Miami come and sign up for my advanced aircraft systems course at the Boeing training center and get some stick time on a 737-800 simulator. Lol
11-10-2011, 02:05 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: Modellbau USA
I'm not always right... but in this case... I'm right for all the parts. I fly big stuff too, (general Aviation) so tell me the FAA weights and measures PDF is wrong.? I also built a KR2, so my life depended on the correct weights for my CG.Dr. Honda you are absolutely right for the most part.
ORIGINAL: Modellbau USA
................... Version 1 or Version 2 Tornado's should be 14lb give or take 1/2 lb with a P60 or 15.5 lb give or take 1/2 lb with P70,K80
................... Version 1 or Version 2 Tornado's should be 14lb give or take 1/2 lb with a P60 or 15.5 lb give or take 1/2 lb with P70,K80
If Your plane weighs more than this you have not followed instructions and added extra things to the plane.
I'm really not trying to be a jack-off... I'm trying to say, (Along with others in this thread) 1.5Lbs on the front gear doesn't work blindly. I understand that the 12-3/4" measurement will work with all set-up's regardless of overall weight... but I would think... for product liability... you would want to say something like this...
"If you want to use the weight method... and you are using our retracts and landing gear legs... then 10% of the overall weight should be on the front tire, and the remaining 90% would be shared across the main gear." (This is assuming that your 1.5Lbs for a 15 Lb model is correct)
I am a manufacture, and I am VERY CAREFUL of what I say about my products for liability.
This will be my last comment, since I don't want to be become the "bad guy"... but I noticed that you really hate to be called out on things. When I'm wrong, I apologize, Correct my statement, and move forward. (it's better for customer relations)
11-10-2011, 03:25 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
Dr Honda I totally agree with you and you are right. I will amend the manual and for the time being everybody please use 12 3/4 inches. Dr. Honda give me a call if you can I would love to pick your brain and see if you are interested in a few things.
And yes around 1500 flight since we started flying them in august 2010. And when I say mean Modellbau as a whole. We have about 6 pilots total that fly for us. For both UAV training for our customers and going to RC shows.
Sorry Dennis I did not make my self clear enough.
11-10-2011, 04:00 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: Modellbau USA
Dr Honda I totally agree with you and you are right. I will amend the manual and for the time being everybody please use 12 3/4 inches. Dr. Honda give me a call if you can I would love to pick your brain and see if you are interested in a few things.
Henry... Wow! That was very unexpected... and I will give you a call during biz hours tomorrow. (Thanks)
11-14-2011, 01:41 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
my second flight with the tornado, way too windy though and wont be flying in that much wind anymore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prt3yFxuEr4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prt3yFxuEr4
11-14-2011, 10:27 PM
#1716
RE: The new Tornado sport jet
stuck a $10 Chinese keychain camera on the tail of my tornado Sunday morning, here are the results..............
http://youtu.be/KE3BibvqdUE
http://youtu.be/KE3BibvqdUE
11-14-2011, 10:53 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: Xairflyer
The wind is good helps you slow down on landing wind generally dos'nt bother jets
The wind is good helps you slow down on landing wind generally dos'nt bother jets
) so instead I use takeoff flaps for landing in high cross wind which means that I land faster in cross wind than in no wind.You are absolutely right wind doesn't bother this jet.
Azzam
11-14-2011, 11:04 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: phantom_najd
The flaps on the Tornado are so effective that when deflected they will slow down the plane rapidly even with no wind. The problem I am always having with the plane is with high 90 degrees cross wind because when flipping the radio switch deploying full flaps the plane will roll violently (happened once to me and I wont try it again ) so instead I use takeoff flaps for landing in high cross wind which means that I land faster in cross wind than in no wind.
You are absolutely right wind doesn't bother this jet.
Azzam
ORIGINAL: Xairflyer
The wind is good helps you slow down on landing wind generally dos'nt bother jets
The wind is good helps you slow down on landing wind generally dos'nt bother jets
) so instead I use takeoff flaps for landing in high cross wind which means that I land faster in cross wind than in no wind.You are absolutely right wind doesn't bother this jet.
Azzam
There should be no vilonent roll when flaps are deployed. Have you set servo slow on your flaps this should help also does one come down quicker than the other.
Dennis
11-14-2011, 11:05 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: KC36330
stuck a $10 Chinese keychain camera on the tail of my tornado Sunday morning, here are the results..............
http://youtu.be/KE3BibvqdUE
stuck a $10 Chinese keychain camera on the tail of my tornado Sunday morning, here are the results..............
http://youtu.be/KE3BibvqdUE
Good results for such a cheap camera
11-14-2011, 11:39 PM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
[/quote]
There should be no vilonent roll when flaps are deployed. Have you set servo slow on your flaps this should help also does one come down quicker than the other.
Dennis
[/quote]
Well, I am sure that no one is quicker than the other, I took great care in making sure that linkages are absolutely identical (to the servo mounting screws holes) had the center programmed and hooked them on Y-Harness. However, you have a point in them being quick I will slow them down a notch and see how it goes.
Did any of you guys try dirty flyby(s)? If not, you must! the plane handles great there and looks awesome. Here is a video [link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HfblwhIj-M[/link]
Azzam
11-15-2011, 04:40 AM
#1722
RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: KC36330
stuck a $10 Chinese keychain camera on the tail of my tornado Sunday morning, here are the results..............
http://youtu.be/KE3BibvqdUE
stuck a $10 Chinese keychain camera on the tail of my tornado Sunday morning, here are the results..............
http://youtu.be/KE3BibvqdUE
11-15-2011, 04:51 AM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
By the way the frames were jumping... I'd say it was from either HobbyPartz, or HobbyKing. They aren't great... but you can't beat them for the price.
I just looked, and they are out of stock, and not on sale any longer. I know a few people in my club bought them.
I just looked, and they are out of stock, and not on sale any longer. I know a few people in my club bought them.
11-15-2011, 05:04 AM
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RE: The new Tornado sport jet
ORIGINAL: Dr Honda
By the way the frames were jumping... I'd say it was from either HobbyPartz, or HobbyKing. They aren't great... but you can't beat them for the price.
I just looked, and they are out of stock, and not on sale any longer. I know a few people in my club bought them.
By the way the frames were jumping... I'd say it was from either HobbyPartz, or HobbyKing. They aren't great... but you can't beat them for the price.
I just looked, and they are out of stock, and not on sale any longer. I know a few people in my club bought them.
Ahh but you did not look for the new listing; without memory card:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dproduct=13987
11-15-2011, 05:11 AM
#1725
RE: The new Tornado sport jet
fleabay, it's called an 808 #11. in the video it's a 10-15mph 90 deg cross wind, no roll when flaps were deployed.
the owner of the camera has two, as soon as he sends me the video i'll upload the ground view of the same flight, the camera does a damn good job for what it costs, i ordered a newer version (and 20 bucks) and we'll see if the frame jumping stops with it.
the owner of the camera has two, as soon as he sends me the video i'll upload the ground view of the same flight, the camera does a damn good job for what it costs, i ordered a newer version (and 20 bucks) and we'll see if the frame jumping stops with it.
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