Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
11-22-2010 | 11:15 AM
#26
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
ORIGINAL: highhorse
A very unfotunate loss, to be sure. But this isn't the cause.
Once an a/c has broken ground, steady state winds have no effect on airspeed whatsoever, and airspeed does not change simply because one is flying upwind, downwind, crosswind, or even when alternating between any combinations of the above.
I know that someone here will absolutely insist upon arguing and perpetuating the whole ''downwind turn'' myth. Please don't hijack this thread. I will start another for that.
ORIGINAL: dubd
The wind was coming from right to left and it appeared you were pulling out of the loop with the plane coming towards you. Perhaps a stall occurred because there wasn't enough lift over the wings since you were flying perpendicular to the wind direction? Do you recall how much power you were giving at the top of the loop?
The wind was coming from right to left and it appeared you were pulling out of the loop with the plane coming towards you. Perhaps a stall occurred because there wasn't enough lift over the wings since you were flying perpendicular to the wind direction? Do you recall how much power you were giving at the top of the loop?
Once an a/c has broken ground, steady state winds have no effect on airspeed whatsoever, and airspeed does not change simply because one is flying upwind, downwind, crosswind, or even when alternating between any combinations of the above.
I know that someone here will absolutely insist upon arguing and perpetuating the whole ''downwind turn'' myth. Please don't hijack this thread. I will start another for that.
11-22-2010 | 11:18 AM
#27
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RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
ORIGINAL: PHIL GREENO
I have not flown a Viper Jet but looking at the short coupled design I think the CG and elevator movement could be critical.
Phil.
I have not flown a Viper Jet but looking at the short coupled design I think the CG and elevator movement could be critical.
Phil.
Also surprising since the VJ is otherwise a very solid flyer and with its big wing, relatively lightly loaded. I had no reason to suspect radio or flight control issues so your explanation is as good as any.
Not sure what happened in this case since there was lots of altitude and VJ's1 explanation of his recovery attempts sound like what I did to recover mine. In any case, sorry for the loss.
Craig
11-22-2010 | 11:59 AM
#28
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
VJ1, crashing a big VJ sucks, and thanks for warning about it for other VJ owners ( I am one of them) in this forum. This hobby is merciless and hope you will have more luck with the F-18. Feel free for making any question about it or the setup I am using on it.
Enrique
Enrique
11-22-2010 | 12:23 PM
#29
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
I'm very sorry for your loss.
I have been flying an Extreme Jets Dragon and had a similar thing happen to me. There is a thread on it somewhere here about 3 months ago. It had done 1 uncommanded roll which I thought may have been me being too slow and and incident at the top of a loop which I also thought was me being to slow. What I finally figured out was that I had a Smart Fly EQ2 running my flaps. After my incident (VERY similar to yours except I saved it) a swapped out my RX and increased the channels, replacing the EQ2 with another channel (went from a JR 921 to a 1221). The Dragon has been rock solid since.
I put the EQ2 on a giant scale Mustang a couple of days ago. I was setting the control throws when low and behold the right flap went down, held for 2 seconds and then went up again. Uncommanded. I reset the TX and the RX and went back to setting the throws. Guess what! About 3 minutes later the right flap did it again! I am summizing that my problem was caused by just this thing happening on my Dragon.
No consolation, but at least I think I found an explanation for my troubles!
Jim
I have been flying an Extreme Jets Dragon and had a similar thing happen to me. There is a thread on it somewhere here about 3 months ago. It had done 1 uncommanded roll which I thought may have been me being too slow and and incident at the top of a loop which I also thought was me being to slow. What I finally figured out was that I had a Smart Fly EQ2 running my flaps. After my incident (VERY similar to yours except I saved it) a swapped out my RX and increased the channels, replacing the EQ2 with another channel (went from a JR 921 to a 1221). The Dragon has been rock solid since.
I put the EQ2 on a giant scale Mustang a couple of days ago. I was setting the control throws when low and behold the right flap went down, held for 2 seconds and then went up again. Uncommanded. I reset the TX and the RX and went back to setting the throws. Guess what! About 3 minutes later the right flap did it again! I am summizing that my problem was caused by just this thing happening on my Dragon.
No consolation, but at least I think I found an explanation for my troubles!
Jim
11-22-2010 | 01:00 PM
#30
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
ORIGINAL: dubd
I never said the model crashed because he was flying downwind, nor did I say that airspeed changed. I was ''asking'' if there was less lift on the wings when flying perpendicular in the loop. If you're going to prove me wrong (and I never said I was right), at least get my statements straight.
ORIGINAL: highhorse
A very unfotunate loss, to be sure. But this isn't the cause.
Once an a/c has broken ground, steady state winds have no effect on airspeed whatsoever, and airspeed does not change simply because one is flying upwind, downwind, crosswind, or even when alternating between any combinations of the above.
I know that someone here will absolutely insist upon arguing and perpetuating the whole ''downwind turn'' myth. Please don't hijack this thread. I will start another for that.
ORIGINAL: dubd
The wind was coming from right to left and it appeared you were pulling out of the loop with the plane coming towards you. Perhaps a stall occurred because there wasn't enough lift over the wings since you were flying perpendicular to the wind direction? Do you recall how much power you were giving at the top of the loop?
The wind was coming from right to left and it appeared you were pulling out of the loop with the plane coming towards you. Perhaps a stall occurred because there wasn't enough lift over the wings since you were flying perpendicular to the wind direction? Do you recall how much power you were giving at the top of the loop?
Once an a/c has broken ground, steady state winds have no effect on airspeed whatsoever, and airspeed does not change simply because one is flying upwind, downwind, crosswind, or even when alternating between any combinations of the above.
I know that someone here will absolutely insist upon arguing and perpetuating the whole ''downwind turn'' myth. Please don't hijack this thread. I will start another for that.
I got ur statement straight enough. The wind direction had no bearing on the crash, as you were implying might be the case.
11-22-2010 | 01:35 PM
#32
My Feedback: (52)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
I do not mean to sound callous because we have all lost our favorit plane at one time or another and it always sucks. But, honestly, it really wasn't the best judgement to take the second flight after experiencing the "loud" rudder flutter. The simplest explanation is usually the correct answer. I would not be surprised if the earlier flutter weakend the entire aft end of the aircraft causing elevator failure, etc. Anyway, I am sorry for you loss. The good news is that this is a perfect excuse to get a new jet!
11-22-2010 | 02:21 PM
#33
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Exactly what Mark said, I also think the problem might be on the flutter on the previous flight. A flutter can basically loosen all your jet and can damage critical parts without you noticing it. After the flutter you should have stayed on the ground until you figure out what went wrong.
I also think the Viper was going quite fast on the loops, I have stalled mine to the point of full up elevator and no problems. Maybe the CG was not correct...
I also experiensed the problem with the 14mz, almost lost an F-4 which became very unstable durring a flight...
Too much maybe's I guess.... Sorry for your loss...
I also think the Viper was going quite fast on the loops, I have stalled mine to the point of full up elevator and no problems. Maybe the CG was not correct...
I also experiensed the problem with the 14mz, almost lost an F-4 which became very unstable durring a flight...
Too much maybe's I guess.... Sorry for your loss...
11-22-2010 | 04:08 PM
#34
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
ORIGINAL: MarkShapiro
I do not mean to sound callous because we have all lost our favorit plane at one time or another and it always sucks. But, honestly, it really wasn't the best judgement to take the second flight after experiencing the ''loud'' rudder flutter. The simplest explanation is usually the correct answer. I would not be surprised if the earlier flutter weakend the entire aft end of the aircraft causing elevator failure, etc. Anyway, I am sorry for you loss. The good news is that this is a perfect excuse to get a new jet!
I do not mean to sound callous because we have all lost our favorit plane at one time or another and it always sucks. But, honestly, it really wasn't the best judgement to take the second flight after experiencing the ''loud'' rudder flutter. The simplest explanation is usually the correct answer. I would not be surprised if the earlier flutter weakend the entire aft end of the aircraft causing elevator failure, etc. Anyway, I am sorry for you loss. The good news is that this is a perfect excuse to get a new jet!
It SUCKS to lose the jet, and we all feel the loss.
The lesson for me here is to learn from my jet brother's mistake and GROUND the airplane UNTIL (not "unless") I find the problem. (I seriously doubt that the flutter was purely coincidental to the crash just one flight later, and that the cause of the crash was a stall)
I fully and freely admit that I might very well have flown another "test" flight just as he did without the added benefit of his shared experience.
11-22-2010 | 04:51 PM
#35
Banned
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Guys If you fly expensive turbine models on a particular TX always have a few foam models also on that TX. Not only are they fun to fly but if you suspect a tx problem in the back of your mind there is no finer way to regain peace of mind than to thrash around with a foamie to see how the TX Performs.
Very sorry for youR loss of a lovely jet. dONT BE PUT OFF GET A CHEAPER ONE TO THRASH ABOUT FOR A WHILE
Dennis
Very sorry for youR loss of a lovely jet. dONT BE PUT OFF GET A CHEAPER ONE TO THRASH ABOUT FOR A WHILE
Dennis
11-22-2010 | 08:12 PM
#36
My Feedback: (22)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
I have watched the video multiple times and I still personally do not believe this to be a stall. Yes it got slow towards the top, but I have watched over and over, in full screen mode, and I don't see a wing drop or otherwise at any time. The nose points itself straight down at 3:44 but the wing doesn't drop at all. The nose continues straight down for another second, then it starts to rotate, it then stops the rotation and begins it again, half way down you can see elevator has been applied as it starts to barrel roll and even starts to look a bit like a falling leaf.
I have no idea what caused the crash, but I still do not believe it to be a stall.
I have no idea what caused the crash, but I still do not believe it to be a stall.
11-22-2010 | 09:25 PM
#38
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Anyone notice before the crash at (3:38) As the jet start the loop from the right, but at the top of the loop as jet pointed downward the top of the jet now it facing the pilot.
11-22-2010 | 09:49 PM
#39
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix
I have watched the video multiple times and I still personally do not believe this to be a stall. Yes it got slow towards the top, but I have watched over and over, in full screen mode, and I don't see a wing drop or otherwise at any time. The nose points itself straight down at 3:44 but the wing doesn't drop at all. The nose continues straight down for another second, then it starts to rotate, it then stops the rotation and begins it again, half way down you can see elevator has been applied as it starts to barrel roll and even starts to look a bit like a falling leaf.
I have no idea what caused the crash, but I still do not believe it to be a stall.
I have watched the video multiple times and I still personally do not believe this to be a stall. Yes it got slow towards the top, but I have watched over and over, in full screen mode, and I don't see a wing drop or otherwise at any time. The nose points itself straight down at 3:44 but the wing doesn't drop at all. The nose continues straight down for another second, then it starts to rotate, it then stops the rotation and begins it again, half way down you can see elevator has been applied as it starts to barrel roll and even starts to look a bit like a falling leaf.
I have no idea what caused the crash, but I still do not believe it to be a stall.
In the second loop, it stalled going over the top putting him in a nose down attitude and it's quite likely ( although no one can know for sure) that he pulled on the elevator to recover. I think it's too coincidental l that this happened in both loops while he was pulling elevator, you don't have to be slow to stall. You'll also notice , his loops were not round ( not critisizing his aerobatic skill here), just saying that he was starting to pull harder on elevator at the top of the radius when his speed was dropping.
Not saying it couldn't be a failure caused by the earlier flutter , just think it's odd that it happened twice at the top of his loops. Not sure how many previous flights were on the plane and if there was any earlier indication of it stalling with elevator?
As I said earlier, I had this happen to me on a Skymaster Hawk, scares the crap out of you, your first instinct is that you've been hit because you loose control. You expect to stall at a slow speed but not at a medium clip. In trying to regain control, you can easily over control it and stall again. I was lucky, had enough altitude (although almost ran out of it) to regain composure and speed and gently pull out. Reducing the elevator control on the next flight completely tamed the beast.
Mike
Mike
11-22-2010 | 10:14 PM
#40
My Feedback: (14)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Assuming that this was the result of an accelerated stall (I know, there is no way to ever know...)
So, assuming this was the reason, a question for the aerodynamicists out there... we all know that you can stall at any speed if you pull hard enough on the elevator (if there is enough travel), but I presume there is some metric that characterizes how "easy" it is to do this at medium or high speeds. It seems odd to me that a plane that lands so slowly and is so lightly loaded would do an accelerated stall so readily, presumably with modest elevator travel setup as recommended by the manufacturer.
Several have commented on how "short coupled" the VJ is, and that might be a reason for this behavior. If so it seems an F-18 would be similar... it is incredibly short coupled if you just look at the wings and stabs (and ignore the lift from the fuse).
Looking at this video and the similar one from the UK a few months ago (the one that started the other argument about stall or not), they sure do look similar. In fact it looks exactly like a P-47 crash I had 5-6 years ago when I believe I stalled the plane when the engine quit and I did not know (lots of planes in the air, noisy, plane far away, etc) so I subconsciously added up elevator to stay level till it stalled and went in .. had no power, but still going straight down could not find a combination of airspeed and pull that would recover.
If not a stall, maybe a common structural failure in the two crashes? .. like a wing twisting out of position on the wing tube after the attach failed, as someone speculated...
Dave
Edit: Corrected to reflect HH's comment below re: AoA vs. Airspeed
So, assuming this was the reason, a question for the aerodynamicists out there... we all know that you can stall at any speed if you pull hard enough on the elevator (if there is enough travel), but I presume there is some metric that characterizes how "easy" it is to do this at medium or high speeds. It seems odd to me that a plane that lands so slowly and is so lightly loaded would do an accelerated stall so readily, presumably with modest elevator travel setup as recommended by the manufacturer.
Several have commented on how "short coupled" the VJ is, and that might be a reason for this behavior. If so it seems an F-18 would be similar... it is incredibly short coupled if you just look at the wings and stabs (and ignore the lift from the fuse).
Looking at this video and the similar one from the UK a few months ago (the one that started the other argument about stall or not), they sure do look similar. In fact it looks exactly like a P-47 crash I had 5-6 years ago when I believe I stalled the plane when the engine quit and I did not know (lots of planes in the air, noisy, plane far away, etc) so I subconsciously added up elevator to stay level till it stalled and went in .. had no power, but still going straight down could not find a combination of airspeed and pull that would recover.
If not a stall, maybe a common structural failure in the two crashes? .. like a wing twisting out of position on the wing tube after the attach failed, as someone speculated...
Dave
Edit: Corrected to reflect HH's comment below re: AoA vs. Airspeed
11-22-2010 | 10:49 PM
#41
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From: Lenoir City,
TN
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Jet crashes are like helicopter crashes, they ain't pretty. Sorry for your loss. Keep the speed up on those loops son!
Not sure what happened here but it sure looked like a stall to flat spin, never pretty on a plane that size!
Not sure what happened here but it sure looked like a stall to flat spin, never pretty on a plane that size!
11-22-2010 | 10:57 PM
#42
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
ORIGINAL: ww2birds
Assuming that this was the result of an accelerated stall (I know, there is no way to ever know...)
So, assuming this was the reason, a question for the aerodynamicists out there... we all know that you can stall at any AoA if you pull hard enough on the elevator (if there is enough travel), but I presume there is some metric that characterizes how ''easy'' it is to do this at medium or high speeds. It seems odd to me that a plane that lands so slowly and is so lightly loaded would do an accelerated stall so readily, presumably with modest elevator travel setup as recommended by the manufacturer.
Several have commented on how ''short coupled'' the VJ is, and that might be a reason for this behavior. If so it seems an F-18 would be similar... it is incredibly short coupled if you just look at the wings and stabs (and ignore the lift from the fuse).
Looking at this video and the similar one from the UK a few months ago (the one that started the other argument about stall or not), they sure do look similar. In fact it looks exactly like a P-47 crash I had 5-6 years ago when I believe I stalled the plane when the engine quit and I did not know (lots of planes in the air, noisy, plane far away, etc) so I subconsciously added up elevator to stay level till it stalled and went in .. had no power, but still going straight down could not find a combination of airspeed and pull that would recover.
If not a stall, maybe a common structural failure in the two crashes? .. like a wing twisting out of position on the wing tube after the attach failed, as someone speculated...
Dave
Assuming that this was the result of an accelerated stall (I know, there is no way to ever know...)
So, assuming this was the reason, a question for the aerodynamicists out there... we all know that you can stall at any AoA if you pull hard enough on the elevator (if there is enough travel), but I presume there is some metric that characterizes how ''easy'' it is to do this at medium or high speeds. It seems odd to me that a plane that lands so slowly and is so lightly loaded would do an accelerated stall so readily, presumably with modest elevator travel setup as recommended by the manufacturer.
Several have commented on how ''short coupled'' the VJ is, and that might be a reason for this behavior. If so it seems an F-18 would be similar... it is incredibly short coupled if you just look at the wings and stabs (and ignore the lift from the fuse).
Looking at this video and the similar one from the UK a few months ago (the one that started the other argument about stall or not), they sure do look similar. In fact it looks exactly like a P-47 crash I had 5-6 years ago when I believe I stalled the plane when the engine quit and I did not know (lots of planes in the air, noisy, plane far away, etc) so I subconsciously added up elevator to stay level till it stalled and went in .. had no power, but still going straight down could not find a combination of airspeed and pull that would recover.
If not a stall, maybe a common structural failure in the two crashes? .. like a wing twisting out of position on the wing tube after the attach failed, as someone speculated...
Dave
11-22-2010 | 11:14 PM
#43
My Feedback: (27)
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
I just watched the video and have a few thoughts.
First off, the flying I saw on the entire video gave me the impression that the jet was really being "man handled", or flown quite roughly (sticks being banged around instead of smooth inputs). It could have been just a bad radio set up with too much deflection and not enough expo or goofy C of G, but the video in my opinion leads to the drawing one of these conclusions.
2nd, the crash was probably the result of too little airspeed entering the maneuver for the amount of G put on the wing. The wing stalled and the jet entered a spin/spiral. The pilot never relaxed the flight controls long enough for the jet to recover and gain sufficient airspeed before excessive elevator was reintroduced and the jet stalled/spun again, this time all the way to the ground.
No matter what, it sucks...sorry you lost a good looking jet.
I have done the same thing in the past so I feel for you.
Beave
First off, the flying I saw on the entire video gave me the impression that the jet was really being "man handled", or flown quite roughly (sticks being banged around instead of smooth inputs). It could have been just a bad radio set up with too much deflection and not enough expo or goofy C of G, but the video in my opinion leads to the drawing one of these conclusions.
2nd, the crash was probably the result of too little airspeed entering the maneuver for the amount of G put on the wing. The wing stalled and the jet entered a spin/spiral. The pilot never relaxed the flight controls long enough for the jet to recover and gain sufficient airspeed before excessive elevator was reintroduced and the jet stalled/spun again, this time all the way to the ground.
No matter what, it sucks...sorry you lost a good looking jet.
I have done the same thing in the past so I feel for you.
Beave
11-23-2010 | 02:26 AM
#45
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From: Hervey Bay, AUSTRALIA
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
We lost a VJ here on the week end and it seems there are some common issues here. The (very capable) pilot turned downwind and the VJ waffled a couple of times after the turn then entered a spin, stopped then spun in the other direction and continued to the inevitable. I estimated the wind speed to be around +20kts, also the temps were up so I am sure air density played a part. I have my own views on downwind turns and aircraft contol and CofG set-up but I shall keep them to myself as I dont want to start an argument, but it seems to me that there is something inherently wrong with the Vipers aerodynamics that make its flight envelope a little unpredictable. It would be nice to know the actual cause of these accidents so other guys dont find out the hard way, it is a very sad thing to witness the demise of a beautiful model.
11-23-2010 | 03:12 AM
#46
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From: Northamptonshire , UNITED KINGDOM
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Scary as it is, but I find myself agreeing with bevar 
I have flown enough viper jets to know there is nothing wrong with their aerodynamics. I have flown and demoed them flying at what seems like just above walking pace.Its a simple case of it being 40 lbs (+ in some cases) of jet. That wing can only work to a certain point and then it just gives up, like all wings do. When it does, and depending on the pilots inputs the result can be messy. I think in many cases that the big viper is just too much of a jump for some pilots unassisted. Flying the bigger and higher loaded jets is different and requires some different techniques. Things that you would get away with on a lighter loaded sports jet or aerobatic model will bite you in the *****.
As with the first Vjet crash ( From the top of a loop) There will be lots and lots of conjecture about reasons why. There will be technical analysis into down wind turns, Conspiracy theories about airframe design, construction and even radio failure. But just as per that first viper crash, I am going to stick my neck out and say the unpopular thing, in that I think it was a piloting error. We have all made them, and will carry on making them. ( Its the nature of being human) I just hope we can learn from it.
If I get time, I will try to post some videos in the coming weeks of
a) How slowly the Vjet can fly
b) What a standard stall with the most efficient recovery I can perform looks like
c) What a deep stall with an aggravated recovery ( Leading to a departure and spin ) looks like
d) How to recover from this situation.
When I am teaching people on jets, I really try to focus on slow speed flight. I think it is one of the single most important, and overlooked aspects of jet flying. I have to admit in being a little lax in covering stall entry and recoveries.. I guess its something that I.... ( We all) could do well spending some time on. As these videos have shown, there is often not much time between entering a stall, and it all being over.
I am sorry for the loss of your viper, especially this one as I felt part of the construction process ( With the emails and Pm's
)
I have flown enough viper jets to know there is nothing wrong with their aerodynamics. I have flown and demoed them flying at what seems like just above walking pace.Its a simple case of it being 40 lbs (+ in some cases) of jet. That wing can only work to a certain point and then it just gives up, like all wings do. When it does, and depending on the pilots inputs the result can be messy. I think in many cases that the big viper is just too much of a jump for some pilots unassisted. Flying the bigger and higher loaded jets is different and requires some different techniques. Things that you would get away with on a lighter loaded sports jet or aerobatic model will bite you in the *****.
As with the first Vjet crash ( From the top of a loop) There will be lots and lots of conjecture about reasons why. There will be technical analysis into down wind turns, Conspiracy theories about airframe design, construction and even radio failure. But just as per that first viper crash, I am going to stick my neck out and say the unpopular thing, in that I think it was a piloting error. We have all made them, and will carry on making them. ( Its the nature of being human) I just hope we can learn from it.
If I get time, I will try to post some videos in the coming weeks of
a) How slowly the Vjet can fly
b) What a standard stall with the most efficient recovery I can perform looks like
c) What a deep stall with an aggravated recovery ( Leading to a departure and spin ) looks like
d) How to recover from this situation.
When I am teaching people on jets, I really try to focus on slow speed flight. I think it is one of the single most important, and overlooked aspects of jet flying. I have to admit in being a little lax in covering stall entry and recoveries.. I guess its something that I.... ( We all) could do well spending some time on. As these videos have shown, there is often not much time between entering a stall, and it all being over.
I am sorry for the loss of your viper, especially this one as I felt part of the construction process ( With the emails and Pm's
)
11-23-2010 | 03:35 AM
#47
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
I lost my small Viper to a slow spiral flat spin after doing a tight loop to try & free a stuck landing gear (my own fault). Despite having plenty of height, no matter what I tried, I could not get the jet out of this situation. I would love to know a way of recovering from this.
11-23-2010 | 04:51 AM
#48
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
ORIGINAL: Ali
Scary as it is, but I find myself agreeing with bevar
I have flown enough viper jets to know there is nothing wrong with their aerodynamics. I have flown and demoed them flying at what seems like just above walking pace.Its a simple case of it being 40 lbs (+ in some cases) of jet. That wing can only work to a certain point and then it just gives up, like all wings do. When it does, and depending on the pilots inputs the result can be messy. I think in many cases that the big viper is just too much of a jump for some pilots unassisted. Flying the bigger and higher loaded jets is different and requires some different techniques. Things that you would get away with on a lighter loaded sports jet or aerobatic model will bite you in the *****.
As with the first Vjet crash ( From the top of a loop) There will be lots and lots of conjecture about reasons why. There will be technical analysis into down wind turns, Conspiracy theories about airframe design, construction and even radio failure. But just as per that first viper crash, I am going to stick my neck out and say the unpopular thing, in that I think it was a piloting error. We have all made them, and will carry on making them. ( Its the nature of being human) I just hope we can learn from it.
If I get time, I will try to post some videos in the coming weeks of
a) How slowly the Vjet can fly
b) What a standard stall with the most efficient recovery I can perform looks like
c) What a deep stall with an aggravated recovery ( Leading to a departure and spin ) looks like
d) How to recover from this situation.
When I am teaching people on jets, I really try to focus on slow speed flight. I think it is one of the single most important, and overlooked aspects of jet flying. I have to admit in being a little lax in covering stall entry and recoveries.. I guess its something that I.... ( We all) could do well spending some time on. As these videos have shown, there is often not much time between entering a stall, and it all being over.
I am sorry for the loss of your viper, especially this one as I felt part of the construction process ( With the emails and Pm's
)
Scary as it is, but I find myself agreeing with bevar
I have flown enough viper jets to know there is nothing wrong with their aerodynamics. I have flown and demoed them flying at what seems like just above walking pace.Its a simple case of it being 40 lbs (+ in some cases) of jet. That wing can only work to a certain point and then it just gives up, like all wings do. When it does, and depending on the pilots inputs the result can be messy. I think in many cases that the big viper is just too much of a jump for some pilots unassisted. Flying the bigger and higher loaded jets is different and requires some different techniques. Things that you would get away with on a lighter loaded sports jet or aerobatic model will bite you in the *****.
As with the first Vjet crash ( From the top of a loop) There will be lots and lots of conjecture about reasons why. There will be technical analysis into down wind turns, Conspiracy theories about airframe design, construction and even radio failure. But just as per that first viper crash, I am going to stick my neck out and say the unpopular thing, in that I think it was a piloting error. We have all made them, and will carry on making them. ( Its the nature of being human) I just hope we can learn from it.
If I get time, I will try to post some videos in the coming weeks of
a) How slowly the Vjet can fly
b) What a standard stall with the most efficient recovery I can perform looks like
c) What a deep stall with an aggravated recovery ( Leading to a departure and spin ) looks like
d) How to recover from this situation.
When I am teaching people on jets, I really try to focus on slow speed flight. I think it is one of the single most important, and overlooked aspects of jet flying. I have to admit in being a little lax in covering stall entry and recoveries.. I guess its something that I.... ( We all) could do well spending some time on. As these videos have shown, there is often not much time between entering a stall, and it all being over.
I am sorry for the loss of your viper, especially this one as I felt part of the construction process ( With the emails and Pm's
)
11-23-2010 | 07:00 AM
#49
RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Have to agree with Ali people assume that if it can fly at walking pace that it can be man handled around the sky have to remember that stall speed goes up with G loading.
11-23-2010 | 07:08 AM
#50
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RE: Another Skymaster Viper bites the dust....
Grrr I did write a second post and in answer to Jims question but it didnt upload... Anyone know if there is a way to retrieve it ? [:@]
