Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
02-22-2012, 02:55 PM
#51
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
We will be their. I left my RV and trailer with my cosin down their near speed world. We will be driveing the car down to pick it up the monday before the event. WOW the T 28 is a ball at night. We should have a fun time. Dan
02-22-2012, 05:08 PM
#52
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RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
Jeremy, I did exactly that after Lee DeMary made that sugestion several years ago. It made a big difference in the flair, as you were much less likely to run out of elevator. Knock on wood I have not had any problems going that route. Smart move in my opinion. Thanks Lee!!!!
ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix
The other thing I was going to change had I kept it, was I was going to reverse the order of the tanks. In the Super Bandit the center tank is WAY ahead of the CG while the saddle tanks are on the CG. The center tank is the last to empty which is stupid, it means no matter what, short of running out of fuel, you are landing nose heavy. I was going to run the vent to the center tank, center Y'd to the two saddles, and the two saddles Y'd into the UAT so that they were the last tanks draining, that way on landing I would have at least had a neutral CG. I ended up selling the jet before I tried this however.
Even with the CG back as far as I had it, it still required a fair amount of down elevator when inverted which tells me it was still nose heavy (fuel tank issue I'm sure). Incidence was correct and I had no pitch change at different throttle settings. I really think reversing the order in which the tanks drain would make a huge difference on the Bandit.
Jeremy
The other thing I was going to change had I kept it, was I was going to reverse the order of the tanks. In the Super Bandit the center tank is WAY ahead of the CG while the saddle tanks are on the CG. The center tank is the last to empty which is stupid, it means no matter what, short of running out of fuel, you are landing nose heavy. I was going to run the vent to the center tank, center Y'd to the two saddles, and the two saddles Y'd into the UAT so that they were the last tanks draining, that way on landing I would have at least had a neutral CG. I ended up selling the jet before I tried this however.
Even with the CG back as far as I had it, it still required a fair amount of down elevator when inverted which tells me it was still nose heavy (fuel tank issue I'm sure). Incidence was correct and I had no pitch change at different throttle settings. I really think reversing the order in which the tanks drain would make a huge difference on the Bandit.
Jeremy
02-22-2012, 08:50 PM
#53
Thread Starter
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
ORIGINAL: MaverickJetJockey
Thanks guys for the great information. I have a question. I am getting ready to complete my original Bandit kit I bought back in 1998 with a composite wing. I will be flying at an elevation of 5000 feet. Should I use this wing or build a balsa Bandit wing? If I stay with the composite wing, are there any special set up instructions I need to follow?
Thanks for the help,
Lloyd
Thanks guys for the great information. I have a question. I am getting ready to complete my original Bandit kit I bought back in 1998 with a composite wing. I will be flying at an elevation of 5000 feet. Should I use this wing or build a balsa Bandit wing? If I stay with the composite wing, are there any special set up instructions I need to follow?
Thanks for the help,
Lloyd
Lloyd,
I agree with all so far, stay with the Comp wing, purely because it is a lot stronger than the Balsa. The air-foil is identical. I have built a both, and while the Balsa wing is a lighter, it wont take the punishment the Comp wing will.
BTW, given its age I assume yours is a Classic Bandit, with the splitter plates on the inlets.. Some say this is the best of all the Bandits..
Roger
02-22-2012, 08:53 PM
#54
Thread Starter
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
ORIGINAL: wntofly
Jeremy, I did exactly that after Lee DeMary made that sugestion several years ago. It made a big difference in the flair, as you were much less likely to run out of elevator. Knock on wood I have not had any problems going that route. Smart move in my opinion. Thanks Lee!!!!
Jeremy, I did exactly that after Lee DeMary made that sugestion several years ago. It made a big difference in the flair, as you were much less likely to run out of elevator. Knock on wood I have not had any problems going that route. Smart move in my opinion. Thanks Lee!!!!
ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix
The other thing I was going to change had I kept it, was I was going to reverse the order of the tanks. In the Super Bandit the center tank is WAY ahead of the CG while the saddle tanks are on the CG. The center tank is the last to empty which is stupid, it means no matter what, short of running out of fuel, you are landing nose heavy. I was going to run the vent to the center tank, center Y'd to the two saddles, and the two saddles Y'd into the UAT so that they were the last tanks draining, that way on landing I would have at least had a neutral CG. I ended up selling the jet before I tried this however.
Even with the CG back as far as I had it, it still required a fair amount of down elevator when inverted which tells me it was still nose heavy (fuel tank issue I'm sure). Incidence was correct and I had no pitch change at different throttle settings. I really think reversing the order in which the tanks drain would make a huge difference on the Bandit.
Jeremy
The other thing I was going to change had I kept it, was I was going to reverse the order of the tanks. In the Super Bandit the center tank is WAY ahead of the CG while the saddle tanks are on the CG. The center tank is the last to empty which is stupid, it means no matter what, short of running out of fuel, you are landing nose heavy. I was going to run the vent to the center tank, center Y'd to the two saddles, and the two saddles Y'd into the UAT so that they were the last tanks draining, that way on landing I would have at least had a neutral CG. I ended up selling the jet before I tried this however.
Even with the CG back as far as I had it, it still required a fair amount of down elevator when inverted which tells me it was still nose heavy (fuel tank issue I'm sure). Incidence was correct and I had no pitch change at different throttle settings. I really think reversing the order in which the tanks drain would make a huge difference on the Bandit.
Jeremy
Both my Bandit fuel systems are configured as Jeremy suggests..
02-22-2012, 09:21 PM
#55
Thread Starter
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
ORIGINAL: Nhalyn
Setting throw and exponential on a plane (not only a jet nor a Bandit, I mean all planes !) is always a difficult thing to do and way more difficult to understand.
What I'm doing on every of my big planes and gliders, that includes my big Futura settings, is that:
- Flying the plane with factory setting melted with my experience (not to be surprized...)
- Set the throw to obtain desired flying at full deflection of the controls (includes full deflection rools, stall tests with full elevator, knife edge, etc.)
- Set the exponential so that plane is flyable smoothly at high speed around neutral position without changing full throw (I'm not fan of dual rate)
- Set the CoG to obtain a well balanced plane : nearly neutral is the way I like it, with not huge amount of elevator to obtain inverted flight. Eventually it's also the way to have a good flare without huge elevator throws.
Some flights are neccessary to found the correct compromize for all that.
My Futura experience :
- Factory settings give a forward CoG plane, nose heavy on landing, needing high angle of elevator to land (difficult to flare, not easy to slow down), big amount of elevator for inverted flight, and too much aileron.
- Factory setting are very good for somebody flying on large and long runways, wanting a very stable and simple jet to fly.
- My CoG had go further back : landings are far better and finally more easy. I'not changed the full throw but changed the expo until I feel in accordance with the plane reactions at different speed.
- The plane is more neutral, more predictable at all speeds, more easy to fly aerobatics, especially for very slow rools.
The war between guys flying with or without exponetial is the same that the one of those flying Spectrum Vs Fasst !
Setting throw and exponential on a plane (not only a jet nor a Bandit, I mean all planes !) is always a difficult thing to do and way more difficult to understand.
What I'm doing on every of my big planes and gliders, that includes my big Futura settings, is that:
- Flying the plane with factory setting melted with my experience (not to be surprized...)
- Set the throw to obtain desired flying at full deflection of the controls (includes full deflection rools, stall tests with full elevator, knife edge, etc.)
- Set the exponential so that plane is flyable smoothly at high speed around neutral position without changing full throw (I'm not fan of dual rate)
- Set the CoG to obtain a well balanced plane : nearly neutral is the way I like it, with not huge amount of elevator to obtain inverted flight. Eventually it's also the way to have a good flare without huge elevator throws.
Some flights are neccessary to found the correct compromize for all that.
My Futura experience :
- Factory settings give a forward CoG plane, nose heavy on landing, needing high angle of elevator to land (difficult to flare, not easy to slow down), big amount of elevator for inverted flight, and too much aileron.
- Factory setting are very good for somebody flying on large and long runways, wanting a very stable and simple jet to fly.
- My CoG had go further back : landings are far better and finally more easy. I'not changed the full throw but changed the expo until I feel in accordance with the plane reactions at different speed.
- The plane is more neutral, more predictable at all speeds, more easy to fly aerobatics, especially for very slow rools.
The war between guys flying with or without exponetial is the same that the one of those flying Spectrum Vs Fasst !
Thanks for your input Nylan.
The issue is that a Bandit has such a huge speed range. It is fully ducted and has gears door all round. The elevator has to provide very fine control at speeds well over 320 kph, yet have enough overall throw to pull the nose up in the final stage of landing, around 40 kph. Using D/R or exponential helps to address this. A personal choice in the end, some here like to use Expo, some not so much.
Roger
02-22-2012, 09:31 PM
#56
Thread Starter
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
ORIGINAL: Ad Clark III
Couple of short final landing sequence stills of my classic bandit....seems pretty level on short final.....and fairly nose up in the flair until touchdown. Speedbrake is non operational due to smoked servo and I was to lazy to fix it. Speedbrake does make Bandit easier to land in my opinion. I do not use any crow on mine. Lots of ''Bandit'' experience in this thread...Diaz, Avilla,Raf,Redman....Ditto to what those guys are saying. Good Luck. Dan I hope you are going to be at Tucson with your Bandit and your T-28!!!!
Couple of short final landing sequence stills of my classic bandit....seems pretty level on short final.....and fairly nose up in the flair until touchdown. Speedbrake is non operational due to smoked servo and I was to lazy to fix it. Speedbrake does make Bandit easier to land in my opinion. I do not use any crow on mine. Lots of ''Bandit'' experience in this thread...Diaz, Avilla,Raf,Redman....Ditto to what those guys are saying. Good Luck. Dan I hope you are going to be at Tucson with your Bandit and your T-28!!!!
Nice sequence of photos. Wish all my approaches were that good. I now have a few thing to try from the pros..
Roger
02-23-2012, 01:10 PM
#57
My Feedback: (28)
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
ORIGINAL: Jack Diaz
Mr. desertlakesflying: I wasn't talking to you. Nor have any desire to.
In the bottom right hand side corner of each post you can see whom the reply is addressed to.
Next time you feel so brave, sign with your real name, btw.
Mr. desertlakesflying: I wasn't talking to you. Nor have any desire to.
In the bottom right hand side corner of each post you can see whom the reply is addressed to.
Next time you feel so brave, sign with your real name, btw.
Next time you feel so brave, sign with your real name, btw.
I feel very brave, as I don't post anything here I wouldn't say to someone's face. I'd like some expounding on this statement though....jack.....trying to be anther internet tough guy?
Seems to be a trend in the jet forums.
Insult someone, be it directly or indirectly, then try to play tough guy, when you are called on it. LOL
People like you amuse me.
02-23-2012, 01:23 PM
#58
My Feedback: (28)
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
ORIGINAL: ravill
Yeah, that desertlakes dude is a tool.
Little does he know what top notch pilots both the Jack's are! If you've seen these guys fly, then you'll know, they are practical, great flying, hands on guys that are down to earth with solutions.
We are trying to help a fellow bandit brother out here!
Yeah, that desertlakes dude is a tool.
Little does he know what top notch pilots both the Jack's are! If you've seen these guys fly, then you'll know, they are practical, great flying, hands on guys that are down to earth with solutions.
We are trying to help a fellow bandit brother out here!
You can be the best pilot in the world but when your ego writes checks your ***** can't cash it kind make the point moot.
02-23-2012, 02:30 PM
#59
RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
ORIGINAL: Desertlakesflying
Next time you feel so brave, sign with your real name, btw.
I feel very brave, as I don't post anything here I wouldn't say to someone's face. I'd like some expounding on this statement though....jack.....trying to be anther internet tough guy?
Seems to be a trend in the jet forums.
Insult someone, be it directly or indirectly, then try to play tough guy, when you are called on it. LOL
People like you amuse me.
ORIGINAL: Jack Diaz
Mr. desertlakesflying: I wasn't talking to you. Nor have any desire to.
In the bottom right hand side corner of each post you can see whom the reply is addressed to.
Next time you feel so brave, sign with your real name, btw.
Mr. desertlakesflying: I wasn't talking to you. Nor have any desire to.
In the bottom right hand side corner of each post you can see whom the reply is addressed to.
Next time you feel so brave, sign with your real name, btw.
Next time you feel so brave, sign with your real name, btw.
I feel very brave, as I don't post anything here I wouldn't say to someone's face. I'd like some expounding on this statement though....jack.....trying to be anther internet tough guy?
Seems to be a trend in the jet forums.
Insult someone, be it directly or indirectly, then try to play tough guy, when you are called on it. LOL
People like you amuse me.
So why did you edit your original post???? [&o]
02-23-2012, 04:36 PM
#61
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RE: Exponential on Elevator?? Is it required on a Bandit.
<span style="font-size: larger"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS">Yes Sir!!
Bringing both Bandits again and may try some crow and maybe a smidge of expo just for giggles. (SeeifI can't zero in on the ol elusive Bandit Greaser landing)
Save us a spot, it will be great to see you and Coleen again!</span></span></p>
