Quality check?
04-28-2012 | 03:40 AM
#26
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: gunradd
One glaring big difference I see is this.
China company. Test flight then crash on landing = airplane ready to sell.
BVM They give a new plane to Pablo for a few months to see if he can break it. If he can they fix the problem before production.
Also a big difference with BVM that I see is this. You can build the plane from start to finish and not alter a thing from the instructions and have a great flying plane with no questions asked.
With the chinese company you are lucky to have instructions.
Also BVM treats his products like a fullscale manufacture does. When a problem is found on an aircraft he has updates about it on his website and how to fix it. Kinda like an (Airworthiness Directive AD) on full scale.
China company will never accept blame.
But like you Fender I dont really like the scale jets BVM sells.They are just not my type. I love the electra and bandit for sport flying.
One glaring big difference I see is this.
China company. Test flight then crash on landing = airplane ready to sell.
BVM They give a new plane to Pablo for a few months to see if he can break it. If he can they fix the problem before production.
Also a big difference with BVM that I see is this. You can build the plane from start to finish and not alter a thing from the instructions and have a great flying plane with no questions asked.
With the chinese company you are lucky to have instructions.
Also BVM treats his products like a fullscale manufacture does. When a problem is found on an aircraft he has updates about it on his website and how to fix it. Kinda like an (Airworthiness Directive AD) on full scale.
China company will never accept blame.
But like you Fender I dont really like the scale jets BVM sells.They are just not my type. I love the electra and bandit for sport flying.
I agree 100%. However, I do like all the BVM jets except for the BobCats and KingKats. I don't like the boom design.
I have two BVM F-16's, a Maverick, an F-4, and an Aggressor. Love them! They went together easily and perfectly. They have lasted many years without any failures ... Well worth the investment.
Have you seen Maj. Woody's building threads of Chinese jets? He had to do extensive modifications during each step of construction just to make things fit and work properly.
It is my feeling that many people buy a Chinese jet because it has a nice paint job, and they assume that the construction is done well because of the pretty paint job. Others may also realize that it is a "hit or miss" on constrution issues, and others may hope for the best and feel they can fix most building issues themselves. I don't take those chances due to a lower cost.
I think that several Chinese jet manufacturers have started at such a low level of quality, that despite making improvements, they still have a long way to go to bring their standards up to an acceptable and consistent level. It is not acceptable for parts not fitting together or being misaligned, lack of glue or too much glue, sloppy construction, gaps, wing spars not cut to proper length, wing tubes that are loose, or encountering any other issues when assembling/purchasing jets that cost several thousands of dollars. Manufacturers should understand this and produce their jets so that extensive re-designing or modifications are not needed by the customer. The only reason why many Chinese jets fly well is because of the re-designing and modifications the customer did. The manufacturer should not take credit for that.
Customer service and satisfaction is another sore spot for them. They just don't get the concept. They take weeks or months to respond, and when they do, they just throw out a question or confusing email rather than resolve the issue ... another delay or aviodance tactic. If they do send the part to you, they don't let you know to expect it.
Customer service seems to be a low priority for them unless it involves purchasing a jet. Once you get the jet, they don't seem to want to know you unless you are buying another jet. They don't seem to want to know about any problems you have with their jet. It's as if they expect you to resolve it yourself.
04-28-2012 | 06:01 AM
#28
My Feedback: (23)
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: mikedenilin
I am now in China and just doing what you had just said - bridge the gap. I have the opportunities to visit almost every jet factory over there frequently to cherry pick jets for our members. I have seen a lot of improvements from all of these factories in the past few years. On RCU, you heard a lot more complaints than praises. The ones that got good jets don't normally show up here and say it. Collectively we heard more of negative comments here. The sales volume speaks itself. If they are not giving value to the customers, why do people keep buying them? Mercedes has better quality than Hyundai, then why Hyundai outsells Mercedes? It's the overall perceived values.
Jack has pretty much said about the things you should do. Here are the things that I suggest
1. The ARF JETS should be considered Semi-ARF. - There are many factory installed options. However, to improve the reliability of your jet, you should take most of the hardware, landing gear apart and put grease, threat locker, and clean up burs, dirts, paint chips, etc. You get to be more familiar with the parts that go into the planes and know that they will not come out in the air. Taking them apart and put them back in is easy, even I can do it. The factory installation has given you a good reference as where to put it back. This is still a lot easier than trying to build a plane from a kit and ensure that no parts are coming loose in air.
2. Get an inspection camera and use it to inspect internal structures regularly. Do it more if you are using Gyros. They induce internal stress more than jets without them. If there are defects, the factories that we are working with would be very happy to replace them for you within the warranty period. You must think like an aircraft mechanic. It's easier and cheaper to service it routinely than try to repair it.
I did some calculations and found that if we want to use the same building procedures and QC standards that the full-size aircraft companies use, the cost of each ARF would be about 3 to 4 times that we are currently paying for. It's doable, but would it be affordable? It depends on how deep your pocket is. Right now, at this stage of Jet era, it's better to budget some of your time to lightly disassemble and ''optimize'' your jets. The time that you can open the box and imnmediatley go fly a jet that costs less than 5K(turbine included) without any issue is still not here yet. We are still working on that.
Mike
I am now in China and just doing what you had just said - bridge the gap. I have the opportunities to visit almost every jet factory over there frequently to cherry pick jets for our members. I have seen a lot of improvements from all of these factories in the past few years. On RCU, you heard a lot more complaints than praises. The ones that got good jets don't normally show up here and say it. Collectively we heard more of negative comments here. The sales volume speaks itself. If they are not giving value to the customers, why do people keep buying them? Mercedes has better quality than Hyundai, then why Hyundai outsells Mercedes? It's the overall perceived values.
Jack has pretty much said about the things you should do. Here are the things that I suggest
1. The ARF JETS should be considered Semi-ARF. - There are many factory installed options. However, to improve the reliability of your jet, you should take most of the hardware, landing gear apart and put grease, threat locker, and clean up burs, dirts, paint chips, etc. You get to be more familiar with the parts that go into the planes and know that they will not come out in the air. Taking them apart and put them back in is easy, even I can do it. The factory installation has given you a good reference as where to put it back. This is still a lot easier than trying to build a plane from a kit and ensure that no parts are coming loose in air.
2. Get an inspection camera and use it to inspect internal structures regularly. Do it more if you are using Gyros. They induce internal stress more than jets without them. If there are defects, the factories that we are working with would be very happy to replace them for you within the warranty period. You must think like an aircraft mechanic. It's easier and cheaper to service it routinely than try to repair it.
I did some calculations and found that if we want to use the same building procedures and QC standards that the full-size aircraft companies use, the cost of each ARF would be about 3 to 4 times that we are currently paying for. It's doable, but would it be affordable? It depends on how deep your pocket is. Right now, at this stage of Jet era, it's better to budget some of your time to lightly disassemble and ''optimize'' your jets. The time that you can open the box and imnmediatley go fly a jet that costs less than 5K(turbine included) without any issue is still not here yet. We are still working on that.
Mike
That is easier said than done mike. There have been many posts on here of different manufacturers showing less than average construction techniques. Such as wing ribs not long enough to reach the rear spar, Globs of glue to fill in gaps instead of properly designed and sized parts, Improper pivot shaft placements, Inadequate pivot shaft anti-rotation pins and pin structure, Honey-comb material as use of a wing spar. the list goes on and on from what i have seen, and its not just one of the Chinese manufacturer's, its all of them!
If i pay $5,000+ for an "arf" with landing gear, I expect it to be Right from the factory! Machined parts should not have any "burrs" to clean off of them and should already be greased, loc-tited and nearly ready for use. It seems that from everything i have seen (and heard) the Chinese manufacturers could care less about the "details" and all about the money!
To sum it up: If a closed all-composite airframe needs to be "optimized", just give me a box of parts (Kit).
04-28-2012 | 07:31 AM
#29
RE: Quality check?
I also agree with invertmast. By the time a manufacturer is making jets, they should be capable of consistent, quality workmanship and parts. They should not be on the level of, or be applying construction and design quality that is usually found in a .40 size trainer.
For any R/C jet manufacturer to earn respect for quality built jet aircraft, they must actually produce quality built R/C jets consistently ... not just provide a pretty paint job over shoddy materials and workmanship. It would not cost Chinese manufacturers lots of money to provide quality built jets, nor would it be reflected in higher prices (except for the greed factor). Materials and labor are cheap in China. I'm willing to bet that there is at least a 1000+% markup in Chinese produced R/C jets. I bet every Chinese R/C jet manufacturer has a higher profit margin than BVM! Based on Chinese labor costs (about a dollar an hour) and material prices that I'm aware of, I'd venture to guess that the final cost of a Chinese produced jet, including paint (less landing gear, which should be about $50 USD their cost), the production cost is in the range of $80.00~ $100.00 USD.
If Mike, or anyone else wants to accept the current low-quality standards from China, or assume that the industry and technology "at this stage in the jet era" is still incapable of producing quality R/C jets, that statement would be incorrect.
And by the way, when I put a $2,500 turbine and add other equipment that costs another thousand dollars+, I expect that jet to be airworthy and have sound construction. I won't put that kind of money or work into anything less than an airframe I can depend on. I won't put any money into something I'm unsure of.
For any R/C jet manufacturer to earn respect for quality built jet aircraft, they must actually produce quality built R/C jets consistently ... not just provide a pretty paint job over shoddy materials and workmanship. It would not cost Chinese manufacturers lots of money to provide quality built jets, nor would it be reflected in higher prices (except for the greed factor). Materials and labor are cheap in China. I'm willing to bet that there is at least a 1000+% markup in Chinese produced R/C jets. I bet every Chinese R/C jet manufacturer has a higher profit margin than BVM! Based on Chinese labor costs (about a dollar an hour) and material prices that I'm aware of, I'd venture to guess that the final cost of a Chinese produced jet, including paint (less landing gear, which should be about $50 USD their cost), the production cost is in the range of $80.00~ $100.00 USD.
If Mike, or anyone else wants to accept the current low-quality standards from China, or assume that the industry and technology "at this stage in the jet era" is still incapable of producing quality R/C jets, that statement would be incorrect.
And by the way, when I put a $2,500 turbine and add other equipment that costs another thousand dollars+, I expect that jet to be airworthy and have sound construction. I won't put that kind of money or work into anything less than an airframe I can depend on. I won't put any money into something I'm unsure of.
04-28-2012 | 10:14 AM
#30
RE: Quality check?
You obviously have no idea of business overheads or how long and how much skill it takes to produce molds, even at one buck/hour. Get real.
04-28-2012 | 11:13 AM
#31
Thread Starter
RE: Quality check?
Hey guys great stuff, Im sorry if my question was hard to understand but from the post it seems people got what I was asking so thanks for that. I love our hobby, love to promote the hobby and I wanted some kind of base line for what a good jet should be. I dont really have any experience with laying up molds and stuff like that so something that may look right for me could be total crap and I wouldn't know so that's why I started this. Another reason for this post was to try and give people new to jets info to make first time buying model more informed.
04-28-2012 | 12:10 PM
#33
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: dubd
Gunradd, it's unfair to lump all Chinese companies into one category. Skymaster, for instance benefit from their relationship with BVM.
Gunradd, it's unfair to lump all Chinese companies into one category. Skymaster, for instance benefit from their relationship with BVM.
For me, if CARF doesn't make it, I'm not buying it. I have a Hawk and Flash and they were nicely built. I'm sure BVM is a great product too. I'd love to have his Phantom but, it's out of my budget, requires a lot of work to build and is a bit small for my liking.
Mike
04-28-2012 | 12:17 PM
#34
My Feedback: (23)
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: madmodelman
You obviously have no idea of business overheads or how long and how much skill it takes to produce molds, even at one buck/hour. Get real.
You obviously have no idea of business overheads or how long and how much skill it takes to produce molds, even at one buck/hour. Get real.
Doing some good ole Internet research resulted in this:
Guang-Dong region of china, China (FEJ, Skymaster, Fei Bao And Jet legends factory location) average labor cost for a Direct employee = 2,868 RMB per month = $454.56 US dollars Per month for the year 2011
So if you base that on a 40 hour week x 4 weeks = 160 hours...
$500 (just to be nice!) monthly wage divided by 160 hours =...
$3.125 cents USD per hour!
Lets assume 100 employees = $312.50 USD per hour.
Assuming 10 employee's for each "model sold" = $31.25 per hour per model
Figure 160 Total hours per model = $500 per model for labor only..
If materials and consumables is 5 to 6 times the cost of labor that is $2500 to $3000 for materials per model
For a grand total of $3000 to 3500 per model..
Lots of Assumptions in there on allot of things, and this doesn't include monthly rent, power, etc for the factory. Over-all, its safe to say the Chinese are making money, but how much isn't for sure since we don't know what they pay for materials, but we can see from the monthly wages that they majority of their profit is in the Low labor costs.
04-28-2012 | 12:32 PM
#35
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: luv2flyrc
I can't agree, my experience with Skymasters product places it right in there with the rest of the Chinese junk. One only has to have a glance at the two recent build threads on here by Woody to realize that they haven't changed and they are still producing crap that won't fly unless the builder does a major re-work.
For me, if CARF doesn't make it, I'm not buying it. I have a Hawk and Flash and they were nicely built. I'm sure BVM is a great product too. I'd love to have his Phantom but, it's out of my budget, requires a lot of work to build and is a bit small for my liking.
Mike
ORIGINAL: dubd
Gunradd, it's unfair to lump all Chinese companies into one category. Skymaster, for instance benefit from their relationship with BVM.
Gunradd, it's unfair to lump all Chinese companies into one category. Skymaster, for instance benefit from their relationship with BVM.
For me, if CARF doesn't make it, I'm not buying it. I have a Hawk and Flash and they were nicely built. I'm sure BVM is a great product too. I'd love to have his Phantom but, it's out of my budget, requires a lot of work to build and is a bit small for my liking.
Mike
04-28-2012 | 12:49 PM
#36
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Quality check?
[/quote]
Perhaps I've had better luck. 7 large SM jets and no major problems. I'm not saying the planes are perfect, but none of my models suffered from problems that would result in a crash or landing gear that would not operate.
[/quote]
Maybe the large ones are better built. Mine was the small Hawk and I had all the same issues that Woody has outlined in his thread on it. Too heavy (by 5-6lbs) for the size, landing gear springs that were not up to the task, wing tube too short, fuel tanks that wouldn't function without re-working them, cockpit wouldn't fit over equipment tray etc. It's almost as if nobody at the factory ever actually built one!
Mike
04-28-2012 | 01:08 PM
#37
Thread Starter
RE: Quality check?
I guess any vendor you buy from you have a chance of getting a lemon, thats just how it goes when something is man made I guess. Nothing man makes is perfect.
04-28-2012 | 01:44 PM
#39
RE: Quality check?
The trouble with a question like this is that everyone has different standards. There are many ARFs from many manufacturers that can be made to fly well and you will see lots of them at events, proving that it can be done. I've had models from a lot (but not all) of the major manufacturers and personally have been disappointed with pretty much all but BVM and CARF (and my Boomerang Nano is good for what it is). BVM models are the best ARFs that you can get and I believe are as close to perfect as you'll ever get (but still not 100%). They are a complete aircraft in a box and everything is engineered to go together. CARF is probably the best value for money, in my opinion, and the airframes are great. They tend to use high quality gear but as these parts are manufactured by other suppliers they aren't quite as well engineered as BVM (but are getting closer all the time).
I know you said that BVM doesn't sell any models that you like but, if you have the money and want to see the standard to aspire to, then try one and see for yourself. I am building an old Mig kit and am enjoying it more than some of 'ARFs' that I have had. It is a lot of work but everything fits and everything is thought out. The last Chinese ARF that I tried to build needed quite a bit of modification and I got fed up with it and sold it on. From now on, unless there is something that I really HAVE to have, all my 'normal' sized models will be BVM or CARF.
Oh, one more thing
If you really want the best model you can get then you might be better off building from a kit rather than an ARF.
I know you said that BVM doesn't sell any models that you like but, if you have the money and want to see the standard to aspire to, then try one and see for yourself. I am building an old Mig kit and am enjoying it more than some of 'ARFs' that I have had. It is a lot of work but everything fits and everything is thought out. The last Chinese ARF that I tried to build needed quite a bit of modification and I got fed up with it and sold it on. From now on, unless there is something that I really HAVE to have, all my 'normal' sized models will be BVM or CARF.
Oh, one more thing
If you really want the best model you can get then you might be better off building from a kit rather than an ARF.
04-28-2012 | 02:40 PM
#40
Thread Starter
RE: Quality check?
I put all my kit building off till I retire from the army and have nice shop, don't think the wife would like me building like in the office
it is ashame bvm doesnt make the larger scale jets.
it is ashame bvm doesnt make the larger scale jets.
04-28-2012 | 02:53 PM
#41
RE: Quality check?
Almost every item in China is 1/10th the cost of the USA price. In China, fiberglass cloth, balsa, plywood, epoxy resin and paint are in the low-cost categories of being 1/10th the cost of US pricing.
You wouldn't believe how low the production cost is (materials and labor) to produce that $35 shirt you are wearing ... try .70 cents! The cost to get that shirt to the USA is higher than the production cost! The manufacturer sells that shirt to Macy's for $12, and Macy's marks it up to $35.
Although a broad generalization, it would be the same principle and guideline for R/C jets and every other item coming out of any Asian, or South American country.
Whatever paint these Chinese manufacturers are using to paint their R/C jets, you can be sure that it's no brand name you ever heard of, nor would you ever know the quality of. And I would venture to wonder if the paint contained lead.
You wouldn't believe how low the production cost is (materials and labor) to produce that $35 shirt you are wearing ... try .70 cents! The cost to get that shirt to the USA is higher than the production cost! The manufacturer sells that shirt to Macy's for $12, and Macy's marks it up to $35.
Although a broad generalization, it would be the same principle and guideline for R/C jets and every other item coming out of any Asian, or South American country.
Whatever paint these Chinese manufacturers are using to paint their R/C jets, you can be sure that it's no brand name you ever heard of, nor would you ever know the quality of. And I would venture to wonder if the paint contained lead.
I wish this side of the pond had those prices
04-29-2012 | 08:33 AM
#44
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Quality check?
Having delt with chineese Mfgs for well over 30 years it's difficult to explain in the US. But its a totally different Mind Set over there.. Our concepts of quality etc are as foreign to them as our language. That's difficult for most people in the West to understand but it's the way it is.
