KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

I was wondering if you guys have found a minimum distance you want between the fuel pump and RX, or the ECU and the RX.

Have you had problems caused by having them too close?

MAX EFFFORT

reading this thread has helped me enormously...did it stop here or have you guys continued it somewhere else? if so ,,where?thnx dk

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

No it actually did stop here. All of the guys really helped me out with the build. It is really an easy build, but throw in the fact that it was a first time turbine install and everything became really intimidating. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

pichi

Please, someone can tell me how must I do to do the harrier?
I have a Cougar 2000
Thanks

Sergio
[email protected]

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

I think you meant to post that here?

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Anyo..._102347/tm.htm

MAX EFFFORT

thnx [again] kenny ,i can resite this entire thread from memory .

bidrseed2

My Feedback: (2)

Ive got a spare mk 2 wren54 (12lbs thrust), has anyone flown a rookie with that powerplant?

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

I flew mine on a P-120 (26.5lbs) and it had unlimited vertical and was a rocket. It weighed 18 pounds dry. Will a 12 lb turbine fly it, sure but it will be very marginal. Anyone flying it with this size motor?

jetflyr

[quote]ORIGINAL: KFalcon

I flew mine on a P-120 (26.5lbs) and it had unlimited vertical and was a rocket. It weighed 18 pounds dry. Will a 12 lb turbine fly it, sure but it will be very marginal. Anyone flying it with this size motor?
== = = = = = =

Err...Kenny you might want to re-think the "marginal" comment.....
I've been flying a 'Roo with a PST on it, 12.5 lbs of thrust "AT SEA LEVEL".
I used to weigh 16.2 lbs, now weigh 17.2 lbs, of which 9 oz is epoxy and lead at the trailing edge (the remaining 7 oz is where I tore the nose of...ARRGGHH!!) Performance is not unlimited, but fun! Top speed only in the 150 realm.
Oh yeah....did I mention that I fly at 6900 ft?
Build it right, and fly it!
A great combination!

Greg

Rainman-ACRF

I've already posted this elsewhere but thought it might be useful to add it to this thread :-

I fly mine with a Jetcat P60 with 13.5 lbs thrust and a dry weight of just about 15lbs. It does pretty much everything you'd expect a Rookie/Harpoon to do - nothing "marginal" about it at all as it still has a power-to-weight of 0.9:1 which means it is not slow. Grass field operation is excellent - it gets off in about 70 meters and stops in about 50 meters without wheel brakes.

From what I understand the P120, whilst an awesome combination, is at the extreme end of the models capability and the instructions state that you need to limit the top-end RPM for safety.

Phil

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

[quote]ORIGINAL: jetflyr


What I am saying is that compared to a P-120 powered Rookie the 12.5 pounds will seem marginal. I saw a Roo flying today with a Super Bee on it. I believe it is 14 pounds of thrust. It flew well but it definitely is marginal compared to a P-120 powered roo.

The definition of marginal will probably vary from person to person. I believe that if you want to explore the outer realm of what the Rookie's thrust vectoring has to offer, the P-120 will take you there. If you are happy flying 150 and don't care much for the outer limits then a 12.5 pound turbine is right for you.

Rainman-ACRF

I'll let you know how the thrust vectoring will work in due course.

I'd only say that your initial reference to "marginal" made it sound like the model would only just fly - which just isn't true, so thanks for clarifying your definition of "marginal". You don't need 1:1 power:weight for more than acceptable performance for any well designed airframe.

From the limited flights I've had, so far as I can tell with a P60, is that it will knife-edge almost indefinately and vertical performance is not lacking. That's good enough for me! However, I can completely see your point if you've already flown one with a P120 then anything less is going to seem tame.

Phil

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

It would be like going from a Ferrari to a Mustang...

My model weighs 18.5 pounds (8.39 K), so the P-120 does some amazing things at almost 1.5 to 1. Matt had a P-160 on his for a while and said it would do climbing flat spins. I believe it!

Rainman-ACRF

I think it would be more like going from a "Ferrari 360 Modena" (1200kg/385bhp) to a "Lotus Elise Sport 190" (700kg/190bhp) - and having driven both and owned a couple of Elises I know which I enjoyed more as I could drive around the outside of the Ferrari in the Lotus on just about any corner. [8D]

Power to weight is only really important in a straight line, heavy is still heavy.

Phil

Mavpro

Are there any videos out there showing the Rookie?

FInn

schroedm

My Feedback: (1)

Dude, you weren't pushing your 360 then (get that traction control off) I prefer my Elise on track days but my 360 still always nails it!

Sorry to butt in on the thread btw [&:]

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

OK...

So 18 pounds is heavy and 15 isn't? I would carry 3 pounds extra on the Rookie any day to have the extra thrust. With the large amount of wing that the Rookie has, the wing loading went up a small amount for all of that extra thrust. I really doubt that you could tell the difference between the two models in flight. And you maybe right about the straight line thing, but the big smile comes when the throttle is pressed after a bad corner exit and you accelerate quickly back to the speed you should have been to.

I don't know what the P-60 weighs, but the P-70 is only .5 pounds lighter than the P-120. So your plane would have weighed between .5 and .75 pounds heavier than it does now with all the thrust you would ever need...

MAX EFFFORT

btw kenny and anyone needing info,, the gear,brakes, and valves that i got as an upgrade option with my harpoon kit , are called [euro-kit ],,made in italy.. they are a spring-down// air -up design... i put the u.p.-6 brake valve on in place of the euro kit one and it is incredibly better..... also small mods to gear were needed to improve reliability... anyone having trouble with this type gear , brakes and valves can pm me for details on fixs.. its probably not as good as bv or robart but i had to make it work due to the money i had in it..,,4rth pic is of the euro-kit valves before i put the u.p.-6 brake valve in.

Lt. Dan

My Feedback: (21)

The gear on your rookie is stout, I thought they were very nice units. The only place they are lacking is that the mains plug into wires and then wire into the retract, as we saw on your maiden, that is going to be the Achilles heel of this plane.

Rainman-ACRF

Well, it's not as heavy. Sure, it's still not what you'd call a light model. ;-)

Lets put it a slightly different way - if you had a flame out, which model would you rather being flying?

I can tell you that you most definately that you can. I originally built it with a P80, and Dave Wilshere has two Harpoon's - his first one has a P120 and his latest one has a P60 which he built specifically to prove the P60 units effectiveness. I've seen all of them fly. With the power off there is very little residual thrust with the P60, as such it slows down very quickly. You notice the difference more in slow flight. In the finals it's a very slow and "floaty" jet.

That I can't dispute.

Not quite so. The bare turbine unit is actually 1.1 pounds lighter with a P60 over a P120. With the ECU battery swapped out for a Lipo the whole installation is actually more than 1.5 pounds lighter - We might be splitting hairs here but thats double your estimate above and when you've got a target weight to acheive then those split hairs make the difference between being allowed to fly your plane or not (in my own case). Note - The P60 isn't built around the same turbine wheel as the P70, P80, P120 and P160 are.

Phil

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

You can use lipos in a 120 powered plane also. So the difference is 1.1 pounds. If you didn't have the weight limits at your field would you give up 12 pounds of thrust and the option to put the bigger motor in a bigger plane after learning with the Rookie / Roo for 1.1 pounds?

I'm sure you will say you will never want anything bigger and that the Rookie / Roo is perfect right? I know because I said the same thing, now look where that has got me...

Rainman-ACRF

Of course not. The point I'm trying to make is that with a little attention to different aspects of the build you can take a Rookie/Harpoon and make it a great grass-field jet. It's not just about turbine weight/thrust, it's about the cumulative effect of every component. If I put a P70 in my Harpoon then it would be illegal for me to operate it at the places I want to fly, without even getting a P120 for it. That 1.1 pound is the difference between flying and not flying.

Not only is this my first jet, but a jet I intend to keep and fly at venues wherever there are weight restrictions. The restrictions aren't just at my local club, but at other clubs all over the UK. This is a model which I can fly anywhere in the UK without having to get prior permission from the local Air Traffic Control, without which I would invalidate my insurance and I'd also be breaking the law. If I want to fly jets frequently without breaking the law then this is what I have to do, but in taking this approach I think I have a model that flies all the better for it. When everything else is taken into consideration I don't mind not having a jet that does over 200 mph. 170mph is good enough for me.

For me as a relative novice with my immediate requirements and restrictions, then you'd be absolutely correct. Even with more experience I would still fly this model in it's current configuration because the way the law is and the availability of suitable flying sites in my part of the UK then that is the way it is and I'm stuck with it. But we're getting away from the point of the discussion.

As a jet trainer that is likely to receive some abuse from operating on a grass strip in limited space then lighter has to be better in the areas that really matter - take off, landing and flame-out. With a P60 the performance isn't lacking as it gets off very quickly from grass, climbs like a jet, goes like a jet and lands very slowly.

I know, much respect to you Kenny. The trouble is that I want to fly whenever I have a spare couple of hours and as much as I'd love to undertake a project such as your beautiful and extremely potent twin F-18 in the UK then I'd only get about six opportunities per year to fly it, assuming the weather is good on every occasion. It would "do me in" just looking at it the rest of the time. I really envy you.

Phil

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

I had no idea that there were so many restrictions on you guys there! I always thought of the UK as a place where all of the biggest rc models could be found. We complain here about our 55 pound max weight limit for the AMA, but we wouldn't be breaking any laws if we flew a 75 pound plane on a non AMA field.

I am not questioning you reasons. If I were under the same laws I would build a jet that could be flown everyday too.

Rainman-ACRF

It's a popular misconception that we can just do whatever we like whenever we like. We can't, but there are hoops to jump through that will allow us to go beyond the norm without incurring the wrath of the law. We do have a well defined set of bodies which govern different areas within the hobby which ultimately feed into the Civil Aviation Authority. For example, if you want to build a large model (between 7Kg and 22Kg / 15lb and 44lb) then you're pretty much free to do so as long as you comply with the rules imposed - that being permission is sought from the local ATC if you're flying in an ATC controlled zone (which is pretty much all of the country). If you've got permission and you passed a "B" test in the appropriate discipline (fixed wing, heli, glider, etc) then you're good to go.

From what I understand, if you're looking the build a model over 20Kg/44Lbs then you come directly under the control of the CAA as the way they see it you're not playing with a model anymore, it's a real aircraft. You can only fly such models (legally) if you are able to obtain a "permission to test" excemption certificate which is valid for 12 months. You can obtain such a certificate if the entire build process has been monitored by their appointed inspectors. The process of monitoring the initial design, the various build stages, pre-flight testing, etc is normally undertaken by the Large Model Association inspection team who are appointed by the CAA. Only when you've completed a witnessed, scheduled test flight will the CAA give you a full excemption certificate and even then only the pilot/s that completed the flight will be included on that certificate and anyone else wanting to fly the model will need to do the very same thing. If you don't observe this you won't get excemption and if you fly such a model (over 20Kg) then you are liable to criminal prosecution.

So you can see that we've got the scope to push the envelope in the UK but you can't just go build and fly a big model. The hurdles are put in place for good reason (as far as I can see) and get harder to navigate the further you go towards operating what could have the potential to be a full size aircraft in all but appearance. I think that this has been made possible by the tight integration and interfacing of all the various bodies concerned which starts with your local club and the British Model Flying Association, then the Jet Modellers Association and the Large Model Association, then the Civil Aviation Authority who are armed with the Air Navigation Order which represents the law. There is a reasonably well defined delegated ownership of different aspects of model flying right the way through the chain of different organisations and if you follow the rule book to the letter then there is much that you can achieve but we don't have carte blanche to do what we like.

In reality, you guys can fly heavier models than we can once you get your AMA waiver. If I wanted to buy the heaviest model that you guys could legally fly in the US and bring it to the UK and fly it then I don't think I would stand a chance unless someone from the LMA had been deeply involved right from the start of the build and had inspected it all the way through to it's first flights. In the UK, once a model is over 44Lbs then there is no choice but to follow the letter of the law but if we do then the sky is limit (as far I'm aware).

Someone might want to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite certain that this is correct.

Phil

IFlyEm35

My Feedback: (5)

where are the videos? Are there any?