BaldEagel

I thought I would post this, but if the moderators deem its in the wrong place please move it accordingly:

LAST WEEK, A FRENCH APPEALS COURT overturned a manslaughter conviction against Continental Airlines for its role in the crash of an Air France Concorde outside Paris twelve years ago.
Flight 4590 was a charter destined for New York ’s JFK airport on July 25th, 2000, carrying mostly German tourists headed to South America . As it neared takeoff speed, the Concorde struck a thin metal strip on the runway, causing one of its tires to burst. The strip had fallen from the underside of a Continental Airlines DC-10 that had departed minutes earlier, bound for Houston . Chunks of the burst tire impacted the Concorde’s wing at tremendous velocity, resulting in a powerful shock wave within the wing’s fuel tank that ultimately punctured it. Gases from the engines then ignited leaking fuel, touching off a huge fire.
The crew wrestled the crippled jet into the air, but lost control moments later, slamming into a hotel. All 109 passengers and crew perished, as did four people on the ground.
All along, conventional wisdom, bolstered by lethargic media coverage, has held that the fuel tank fire was the direct cause of the crash. This from the Associated Press a few days ago, is a typical example of what the public has been reading and hearing: “The burst tire sent bits of rubber flying, puncturing the fuel tanks, which started the fire that brought down the plane.�
But this isn’t so.
There’s no denying the jet ran over an errant piece of metal that caused a tire explosion and a resultant fire. But while the fire was visually spectacular — caught on camera, it trails behind the plane in a hellish rooster tail — experts say that aside from damaging the number 2 engine, it was very much survivable, and likely would have burned itself out in a matter of a few minutes. Not only was it survivable, but it was probably avoidable as well, had it not been for a chain of errors and oversights that, to date, nobody wants to talk about — particularly not European investigators.
The plane went down not because of any fire, directly, but because 1., it was flying too slowly; 2., it was several tons overweight and beyond its aft centre of gravity limit; 3., two of its four engines were damaged or erroneously shut down; 4., it was over-fuelled.
It was flying too slowly because the pilot at the controls, Christian Marty, had pulled the jet into the air to avoid skidding sideways off the runway and colliding with another plane. Why it was skidding has been the subject of contention, but as we’ll see in a minute, many believe the skid was caused by an improperly repaired landing gear.
Under normal circumstances Marty still had enough speed to climb away safely; however, he no longer had enough power. One engine had been badly damaged due to ingestion of foreign material — not only pieces of exploded tire, but debris from a runway edge light the jet had run over during the skid. A second engine, meanwhile, was shut down completely by the cockpit flight engineer — at a time and altitude when he was not supposed to do this, when remaining thrust from that engine was desperately needed for survival.
All the while, the plane was an estimated six tons above its maximum allowable weight based on weather conditions at the time of the crash.
At proper weight, the jet would have become airborne prior to the point when it ran over the metal strip. Further, the fuel tank that was struck by tire debris had been over-filled. In normal operations the wing tank was not to be filled beyond 95% of capacity to allow for thermal expansion during flight, with an exception for up to 98% capacity under certain conditions. The tank on the ill-fated flight was filled to 100%, leaving no space for compression. Fuel itself will not compress, so when debris struck the tank, it resulted in a shock wave that caused a puncture — in a location several meters away from the point of impact.
The November 29th verdict was, if nothing else, fair. “ France is one of a handful of countries that routinely seek criminal indictments in transportation accidents, regardless of whether there is clear evidence of criminal intent or negligence, “reported the New York Times. All along, aviation safety specialists were highly critical of the suit, believing (as I do), that such prosecutions set a dangerous and destructive precedent, undermining crash investigations and air safety in general. “The aviation safety community is going to view this verdict with great deal of relief,� said William R. Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation, speaking in the Times article. “It reminds us that human error, regardless of the tragic outcome, is different from a crime.�
Well and good. However, does the full and true story of the disaster remain untold?
I point you to a story that ran in the British newspaper The Observer in 2005. It’s seldom that I have flattering things to say about the press’s coverage of aviation accidents, but this particular piece, by reporter David Rose, is a gripping, startling story.

BaldEagel

This is the article referred to above:

Doomed: THE REAL STORY OF FLIGHT 4590

David Rose

It is an indelible image, heavy with symbolism: the photograph taken on 25 July 2000, at the moment Concorde became a technological Icarus. The great white bird rears up over runway 26 at Charles de Gaulle, immediately after takeoff. Already mortally wounded, flames bleed uncontrollably from beneath the left-hand wing. Less than two minutes later, the world’s only supersonic airliner will fling itself into the Paris suburb of Gonesse, killing all 109 on board and another five on the ground.
The official investigation has focused almost entirely on the fire. According to the French accident investigation bureau, the BEA, it broke out when the plane passed over a strip of metal on the runway. A tyre burst; a chunk of rubber thudded into a fuel tank inside the wing; jet fuel poured out of a hole and ignited.
The hot gases caused two of the engines to falter, and despite a valiant struggle by Captain Christian Marty, a daredevil skier who once crossed the Atlantic on a windsurf board, the loss of thrust made the crash inevitable.
An investigation by The Observer suggests the truth is much more complicated. In the words of John Hutchinson, a Concorde captain for 15 years, the fire on its own should have been “eminently survivable; the pilot should have been able to fly his way out of trouble.� The reason why he failed to do so, Hutchinson believes, was a lethal combination of operational error and negligence. This appears to have been a crash with more than one contributing factor, most of which were avoidable.
Go back to that photograph. An amazing picture: but where was it taken? The answer is: inside an Air France Boeing 747 which had just landed from Japan , and was waiting to cross Concorde’s runway on its way back to the terminal. Its passengers included Jacques Chirac and his wife, the President and first lady of France , returning from the G7 summit.
Concorde looks to be nearby because it had been close to hitting the 747, an event which would have turned both aircraft into a giant fireball. Veering wildly to the left, like a recalcitrant supermarket trolley with a jammed wheel, Concorde’s undercarriage had locked askew.
When Marty pulled back on the control column to raise the nose and take to the air — the process pilots call “rotation� — the plane’s airspeed was only 188 knots, 11 knots below the minimum recommended velocity required for this manoeuvre.
But he had no choice: the plane was about to leave the tarmac altogether and plough into the soft and bumpy grass at its side. That might have ripped off the landing gear, leaving Concorde to overturn and blow up on its own. If not, the 747 lay straight ahead. So he took to the air, although he knew he was travelling too slowly, which would impair the damaged plane’s chances of survival.
Shocking evidence now emerging suggests that the Air France Concorde F-BTSC had not been properly maintained. The airline’s ground staff had failed to replace a “spacer� — a vital component of the landing gear which keeps the wheels in proper alignment. Although the BEA disputes it, there is compelling evidence that it was the missing spacer which may have caused the plane to skew to the left, so forcing Marty to leave the ground too early.
At the same time, the plane was operating outside its legally certified limits. When it stood at the end of the runway, ready to roll, it was more than six tonnes over its approved maximum takeoff weight for the given conditions, with its centre of gravity pushed dangerously far to the rear. Even before the blowout, Marty was already pushing the envelope.
The stresses on Concorde’s landing gear are unusually severe. At regular intervals, the various load-bearing components become “lifed� and must be replaced. When the undercarriage bogeys are taken apart and reassembled, the work must be done according to a rigid formula, and rigorously inspected and assessed.
Concorde F-BTSC went into the hangar at Charles de Gaulle on 18 July, a week before the crash. The part which was lifed was the left undercarriage beam — the horizontal tube through which the two wheel axles pass at each end. In the middle is a low-friction pivot which connects the beam to the vertical leg extending down from inside the wing. The bits of the pivot which bear the load are two steel shear bushes. To keep them in position, they are separated by the spacer: a piece of grey, anodised aluminium about five inches in diameter and twelve inches long. When the plane left the hangar on 21 July, the spacer was missing. After the crash, it was found in the Air France workshop, still attached to the old beam which had been replaced.
In the days before the accident, the aircraft flew to New York and back twice. At first, the load-bearing shear bushes remained in the right positions. But the right-hand bush began to slip, down into the gap where there should have been a spacer. By the day of the crash, it had moved about seven inches, until the two washers were almost touching. Instead of being held firmly in a snug-fitting pivot, the beam and the wheels were wobbling, with about three degrees of movement possible in any direction. As the plane taxied to the start of the runway, there was nothing to keep the front wheels of the undercarriage in line with the back. The supermarket trolley was ready to jam.
Exactly when it started to do so is uncertain. Jean-Marie Chauve, who flew Concordes with Air France until his retirement, and Michel Suaud, for many years a Concorde flight engineer, believe the undercarriage was already out of alignment when the plane began to move down the runway..
They have spent the past six months preparing a 60-page report on the crash. Chauve said: “The acceleration was abnormally slow from the start. There was something retarding the aircraft, holding it back.� Chauve and Suaud’s report contains detailed calculations which conclude that without this retardation, the plane would have taken off 1,694 metres from the start of the runway — before reaching the fateful metal strip.
The BEA contests these findings, saying that the acceleration was normal until the tyre burst. It also maintains that even after the blowout, the missing spacer was insignificant.
The BEA’s critics say that once the tyre burst, the load on the three remaining tyres became uneven, and even if the wheels had been more or less straight before, they now twisted disastrously to the side. The smoking gun is a remarkable series of photographs in the BEA’s own preliminary report. They show unmistakably the skid marks of four tyres, heading off the runway on to its concrete shoulder, almost reaching the rough grass beyond.
In one picture, the foreground depicts a smashed yellow steel landing light on the very edge of the made-up surface, which was clipped by the aircraft as Marty tried to wrest it into the air. Industry sources have confirmed that this probably had further, damaging results. Until then the number one engine had been functioning almost normally but when the plane hit the landing light it ingested hard material which caused it to surge and fail. This hard material, the sources say, was probably parts of the broken light.
John Hutchinson said: “The blowout alone would not cause these marks. You’d get intermittent blobs from flapping rubber, but these are very clearly skids.�
In its interim report, and in a statement, the BEA said that the leftwards yaw was caused not by the faulty landing gear but by “the loss of thrust from engines one and two�.
There are several problems with this analysis. First, as the BEA’s own published data reveals, the thrust from engine one was almost normal until the end of the skid, when it took in the parts of the landing light. It is simply not true that the yaw began when both engines failed.
Second, those who fly the plane say that a loss of engine power will not cause an uncontrollable yaw. The Observerhas spoken to five former and serving Concorde captains and flying officers. All have repeatedly experienced the loss of an engine shortly before takeoff in the computerised Concorde training simulator; one of them, twice, has done so for real. All agree, in John Hutchinson’s words, “It’s no big deal at all. You’re not using anything like the full amount of rudder to keep the plane straight; the yaw is totally containable.�
Other avoidable factors were further loading the dice, making it still more difficult to rescue the plane. When Marty paused at the start of the runway, his instruments told him that his Concorde had 1.2 tonnes of extra fuel which should have been burnt during the taxi. In addition, it contained 19 bags of luggage which were not included on the manifest, and had been loaded at the last minute, weighing a further 500 kg. These took the total mass to about 186 tonnes — a tonne above the aircraft’s certified maximum structural weight.
Meanwhile, in the interval between Concorde’s leaving the terminal and reaching the start of the runway, something very important had changed: the wind. It had been still. Now, as the control tower told Marty, he had an eight-knot tailwind. The first thing pilots learn is that one takes off against the wind. Yet as the voice record makes clear, Marty and his crew seemed not to react to this information at all.
Had they paused for a moment, they might have recomputed the data on which they had planned their takeoff. If they had, they would have learnt a very worrying fact. The tailwind meant that Concorde’s runway-allowable takeoff weight was just 180 tonnes — at least six tonnes less than the weight of Flight 4590.
[NOTE: What the reporter is saying here is that once the tailwind was accounted for, the plane was now six tons above the takeoff limit for that runway.]
John Hutchinson said: “The change in the wind was an incredible revelation, and no one says anything. Marty should have done the sums and told the tower, ‘Hang on, we’ve got to redo our calculations.’�
The extra weight had a further consequence beyond simply making it harder to get into the air. It shifted the centre of gravity backwards: the extra bags almost certainly went into the rear hold, and all the extra fuel was in the rearmost tank.
A plane’s centre of gravity is expressed as a percentage: so many per cent fore or aft. Brian Trubshaw and John Cochrane, Concorde’s two test pilots when the aircraft was being developed in the early 1970s, set the aft operating limit at 54 per cent — beyond that, they found, it risked becoming uncontrollable, likely to rear up backwards and crash, exactly as Flight 4590 did in its final moments over Gonesse.
The doomed plane’s centre of gravity went beyond 54 per cent. The BEA states a figure of 54.2 per cent. A senior industry source, who cannot be named for contractual reasons, says the true figure may have been worse: with the extra fuel and bags, it may have been up to 54.6 per cent. And as the fuel gushed from the hole in the forward tank, the centre of gravity moved still further back.
When the plane was just 25 feet off the ground, Gilles Jardinaud, the flight engineer, shut down the ailing number two engine. Both French and British pilots say it was another disastrous mistake, which breached all set procedures. The engine itself was not on fire, and as the tank emptied and the fire burnt itself out, it would probably have recovered. The fixed drill for shutting down an engine requires the crew to wait until the flight is stable at 400 feet, and to do so then only on a set of commands from the captain.
In a comment which might be applied to the whole unfolding tragedy, John Hutchinson said: “Discipline had broken down. The captain doesn’t know what’s happening; the co-pilot doesn’t know; it’s a shambles.�
Previous reports of the tragedy have described the crash as an act of God, a freak occurrence which exposed a fatal structural weakness in the aircraft which could have appeared at any time. The investigation by The Observer suggests the truth may not only be more complicated, but also sadder, more sordid. Men, not God, caused Concorde to crash, and their omissions and errors may have turned an escapable mishap into catastrophe.
The issues raised by David Rose, which at first were dismissed as so much conspiracy mongering, are now generally accepted facts within the aviation community, and have been more or less confirmed by investigators, however quietly. The November, 2012 court ruling does not explicitly says so, but it is, in its own way, a tacit acknowledgment of the fullstory — one in which Continental Airlines played at worst a supporting role. This accident is an outstanding example of something we’ve seen time and time again in airplane crashes: multiple errors, none of them necessarily fatal on their own accord, combining and compounding at the worst possible moment to precipitate a catastrophe. Rarely is the cause of disaster something simple and unambiguous.
Both British Airways and Air France, the only two operators of the Concorde, grounded their fleets following the 2000 disaster. The planes were reintroduced following a fuel-tank redesign, but both carriers withdrew them from service permanently in 2003, after 27 years of service, citing prohibitively expensive operating and upkeep costs. Only twenty Concordes had been built, four of which were prototypes or pre-production examples. The Air France crash marked its only fatal accident.
Concorde, as you may or may not know, was not the only supersonic passenger aircraft. There was also its Soviet cousin, the Tupolev Tu-144, which also suffered a single fatal accident over the brief course of its commercial tenure. In 1973 a Tu-144 crashed during a demonstration at the Paris Air Show. The Tupolev had taken off from Le Bourget airport, where Captain Marty and his crew were attempting an emergency landing when their Concorde went down in 2000.
DEFINITELY give this one a read!! And the attached article by Patrick Smith.
Concorde



Excerpt from the Travel Insider newsletter


The Real Truth of Air France’s Concorde Disaster

The French have this strange approach whereby, in an accident, they like to find someone to blame and bring a criminal prosecution against them.
Never mind that the key part of an accident is the lack of what the attorneys would term mens rea – the lack of a specific decision on the part of someone to create the accident. If an accident was intentional, it wouldn’t be an accident, would it. But the French like to find someone they can blame.
Never mind also that when there is criminal prosecution being threatened, people tend to clam up and stop being fully open and truthful about what happened, which means it becomes harder to learn from the innocent and unfortunate mistakes and chain of events that may have caused any such accident. This is why, just about everywhere else in the world, air accidents in particular are investigated without the threat of criminal prosecution hanging over the heads of the involved parties.
Oh – the French also being the ardent nationalists that they are, any attempt to shift blame from French companies and individuals, and to pass it over to foreigners instead (ideally Americans, British, or Germans) is eagerly sought. This can sometimes be difficult to do – for example the AF 449 crash over the Atlantic a couple of years ago, involving Air France (obviously French), its pilots (also French) and an Airbus plane (also, ooops, mainly French).
So with all this as background, do you remember the terrible tragedy of the Air France Concorde that crashed when taking off from Paris back in 2000? After casting around, the French decided that clearly the fault for the crash of an Air France (French) Concorde (half French) piloted by French pilots and leaving from a French airport should be blamed on Continental Airlines, a nasty American company.
The logic of that is rather breathtaking, and involved a very selective inattention to most of the relevant details of the disaster. The story went that a Continental DC-10 that took off shortly before the Concorde had a piece of metal fall off and lie on the runway, which became the root cause of the Concorde disaster. The Concorde apparently rolled over the top of the metal piece, which apparently then punctured a tire, and bits of rubber flew off the tire and into a fuel tank, starting a fire.
At least this was better than their earlier attempt to prosecute, and if successful, imprison an 80 yr old gentleman who was the original designers of the Concorde, who had been in charge of the plane’s initial testing program more than 40 years before the crash.
The successful prosecution of Continental has now been semi-overturned in a French Appeals court, which has at least absolved Continental of criminal liability, while still imposing a very small (€1 million) measure of civil liability. Indeed, the amount is so ridiculously small, compared to the cost to Air France of losing a Concorde full of passengers, that it begs the question ‘why so little’? It is almost as though the court is saying ‘Okay, the honor of France is at stake, so we’ll find you guilty, but don’t worry, we’ll just impose the tiniest of fines’.
If Continental truly was guilty, surely its fine, for the loss of a plane and the death of 113 people, should have been more like €250 million.
Details here.
However, none of this relates to the real true full story of how and why the Concorde crashed. It is a story worth telling, because it reveals sad negligence and incompetence on the part of – gulp – French people in many different parts of the tragedy.
I’d found an article about this, many years ago, and even mentioned it in passing in earlier commentaries on the accident, but lost the link and couldn’t find it again, no matter how hard I searched. So great thanks to ‘Ask the Pilot’ blogger Patrick Smith, who now shares this excellent must-read article.

Not to steal the story from Patrick and the sources he draws from, but the spectacular fire was not fatal. It was something the pilots should have been able to recover from. Now go read his story to find out the multiple problems with the plane to start with, and the ineptness of the pilots’ responses after the fire started and how the combination of these factors, rather than the fire, caused the plane’s destruction.
Excuse me for maybe having a misplaced set of priorities, but to me the biggest tragedy of all about the unnecessary and preventable Air France Concorde crash was not just the death of 113 people and the loss of an irreplaceable Concorde. It was that this crash ended the aura of the Concorde’s impeccable safety record and claimed highest standards of everything; and – in my opinion – was the underlying root cause of the Concordes being unnecessarily taken out of service only a few years after they were returned to service after the crash. Indeed, Air France ’s embarrassment was so great that it reportedly never wished to operate them again after their accident.
Do read Patrick Smith’s very clear explanation of what went wrong, and how easily preventable the entire tragedy could have and should have been.

Dr Honda

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OK... that was a very long read.... but I did it.

Very interesting on all of the facts. Over here in the USA... I don't think I've heard anything more about it since the original incident.

mtnflyer14

Fascinating stuff in the mishap investigation. First I've heard the whole story that didn't totally blame the DC-10's FOD as the main causal factor.
Regards,
Gus

lookilook

Well i had the idea that they wanted to blame the DC-10 for the metal piece on the runway not on the basis that it just fell of and caused the accident but on the basis of the reasons that led to the piece separating from the engine and that was a bad fix (temporary repair)indicated by a different diameter of holes on the metal strip as well as an uneven length between the holes hense it loosen it's self .oh well ....

Eddie P

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Really interesting. Thank you for posting this.

Another interesting fact is, of course, that this is not the first time government officials have hidden behind a lot of "details" when an aircraft crashes and hordes of people are killed. One example on this side of the pond in the US is the Alaska Airlines flight 261 crash of 2000. The jet crashed and we know why in terms of this part and that part, etc... but there were many severe management and aviation regulatory crimes that were committed by airline and oversight officials, well before the crash, that killed the people. Many of those details were glossed over and though it's obvious as to why that jet crashed we still don't have the true reasons behind what people did and how that's not going to happen again. I mean the knowledge is there, but it's not widely offered for discussion especially to the "on the surface 10 second story" news media or general public. It's been a big white wash.

Nhalyn

Well,

I'm really scared about this post here, what it says, and what it will becomes.

An article was posted, with different conclusion about this crash and causes. Everybody have right to have his own opinion. But here there was 113 killed, with families, etc...

Are you saying that the french BEA, equivalent to american NTSB, should have wrong conclusion ? Well, maybe... But who will gain something ? Concorde was grounded after this crash, there was only 12 builded and commercially fly. At the time of crash there was only 7 or 8 flying. It comes back to air after, only for very few years more of service. This crash killed Concorde, that was not enough ? We need another debate on that ?

This crash is a "no chance" crash, with critical occurences going one after other, leading to a bad crash. A plane lost a tiny part on the runway. An other plane put its tires on this part, that held to critical failures.

There was a problem with the DC-10, there was probabely problems with Concorde. So what ? Does this will make onbord peoples comes back ?

It was not the first time that a hole was created under the wing by something. Last time, there was a big hole under the wing with massive fuel leaks. But it was not fired by the engine and the Concorde have just done a perfect circuit to come back and land.

On the Paris crash, the pilot done a faboulous job to take off the hurted plane, try something, and finaly crash the plane on the only crashable site in the vicinity of Roissy ! I know the site because I'm living not far from it and sometime drive through and around there, before and since the crash date. There are homes and buildings and factories everywhere here ! This hotel is just near a grass flatland that was on the trajectory and I'm pretty sure that the pilot tried to voluntary crash the plane here instead that suffer a totally incontroled on a factory or houses few seconds later.

Even the hotel was not destroyed ! The plane crashed on an attick of the hotel, not the hotel itself.

Please be very careful with your text here. It's not a game.

mtnflyer14

No one is diminishing the loss of life, the efforts of the pilot to save the airplane and its passengers/crew, nor his effort to avoid crashing into a populated area on the ground and causing more loss of life. The post simply restates the results of the extremely thorough investigation that revealed a much more complicated chain of events leading to the loss of the aircraft than simply a fire caused by Foreign Object Damage (FOD) on the runway, in this case from an American DC-10. The Concorde was out of gross weight limits, took off in a tailwind, had improper maintenance on the landing gear and was swerving toward a 747, which was off the runway and the flight engineer improperly shut down an engine. The FOD on the runway was not the primary causal factor of the mishap and the courts have agreed. No malice intended with the original post or any posts since.
Regards,
Gus

Eddie P

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Could not have said it better. The Air France Concorde crash investigation and talk about what was behind the crash just goes with the territory in finding higher ground for aviation safety and the flying public. An inability to address the issues for political reasons or stifling real accident investigation and safety findings for any reason - it only allows the next accident to occur as soon as the opportunity arises meaning any crash today goes forth in vain, to the quiet dust bin of secrecy. No one wants that.

TTRotary

With all due respect, your post, Nhalyn,is a perfect example of the desire to cover up facts that the second article refers to. I am also French and proud of it, but the facts are the facts, and the conclusions and outcomes irrefutable. It is not because 15 French individuals are negligent that the whole country is to blame. And besides, if you take the position that this is shameful, then you trade one type of shame for another. If the FOD thoery is followed to conclusion, then BAE Aerospatiale (latter part emphasized) is responsible for a poor design that killed people. If the facts are followed, maintenance error, compounded by pilot error, caused this. And either way, it is likely the pilot heroically decided to lift the plane off the ground knowing it would not fly for long, to avoid a much greater tragedy of hitting the B747. In any case, it is good that more facts are coming to light about this.

And I am not singling out the pilot or ground crew. The manufacturer probably did not play a role here, but certainly has in other situations that were whitewashed, including the disastrous safety record of the DC-10 (an aircraft that should never have been allowed into the air) and the more recent outrage that is AF449. Here, the aircraft is clearly to blame, specifically the autopilot and flight systems. But this will be covered up as it would imply that all Airbus aircraft are defective in this regard (which I believe they are, and which I believe we will continue to see air disasters with). It is more convenient to blame a $200 Thales part and the pilots.

Nhalyn

Maybe I insidiously try to cover something, but it's not my goal...[]

I'm really surprised to discover this discussion on an american forum by american forumers. Here in France we cannot ear a word of that story ! There's a problem somewhere...

What is pertubating me is that the sort of information the article claim is the first and basical information that an inspector from BEA or NTSB will ask ! They can't have gone through that ! These are the first parameters that are checked from the blackboxes ! Weight and balance, speed, altitude, engine parameters, meteo ! Inspectors have well noticed that there was a missing part on the gear and have done their job with that, maybe not to the end ? This is not NCIS here !

For the AF447, final report say that ice was a starting point but not the cause of the crash. The cause of the crash is the very bad responses of the crew to the alarms, and after that a complete lost of control because they never understand what was going on. A point of conclusion is maybe the alarm design is not the good one and don't help pilots decisions. Here in France it's a great polemic because pilots syndicates can't ear that pilts don't know to fly a plane ! But it was written in the report.

I can't see here where should be the higher economic or politic interest to create such a story for Concorde if it was (nearly) simply a reason of overweight + CoG + bad maintenance ? Fear to put Air France in bankruptcy ? Maybe I'm naive. Lets see history response...

rorywquin

When I lived in the UK a club member was on the crash investiagtion team and he eventually gave a presentation (edited at the time) on their findings. I don't remember the details but it was a series of events that led to the plane crashing and if even one of those early events had not happened the Concorde would not have crashed. Pointing to pilot error of a piece of metal on the runway is too simplistic.

BaldEagel

Nhalyn

I am the original poster and from the UK, the information is in the public domain from English news papers and is available throughout Europe, I posted this on RCU so that our American friends could see the information available to us.

Mike

Nhalyn

Thanks for that. Here in France, not a single word ! We are not so far away from Kent ! Speak loud please !

There were a lots of crash in history of aviation due to overweight, maintenance, pilots error. Those have not laid to long thread. But here it's Concorde, not simply a plane...

Henke Torphammar

The F-111 does dump and burn as a routine so it can be done, but looking at the photos of the concorde I doubt it would have lasted long enough to touch down safely. Fire is well in under the wing and fuselage.

Robrow

Again a classic Human Factors story, the type of which is taught all the time in the aviation industry....the Swiss Cheese model....eventually a series of holes will line up to allow the accident to take place, move the hole on any slice and the chain is broken. If you look into the subject deep enough you will always find a HF even the ones deemed mechanical failure.

Rob.

Rob Howarth

You are dead right Rob! We teach this day in day out at my company! CRM Aviation Europe.

Just a pity the original post couldn't spell CONCORDE, or disaster.

Cheers,

BaldEagel

Do you mean the original poster could not spell CONCORDE, or disaster?

Mike

smaze17

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I can't believe that any country would seek a manslaughter indictment over a pretty obvious "human error" crash. Unless the persons involved deliberately tried to crash the aircraft. But this has certainly happened before. Remember the crash of Air France flight 296?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kHa3WNerjU

The captain, first officer as well as 2 Air France officials and the President of the airport flying club were all charged with involuntary manslaughter. They all were in fact convicted. This crash was 100% attributed to human error.

May all 113 souls Rest in peace.

S

Eddie P

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I'm with you - I can't believe it either but it's true. I think you are well aware of the implications of it all, but for anyone else still wondering about the implications of this:

There is every reason to believe that a "mistake" can be criminalized in some countries when it comes to aviation or anything else like minded. France is one such country where aviation errors and mistakes are in fact criminal acts. Much like China and Brazil, and a few other places. If you are involved in a human error, you may be found criminally liable and go to prison. In these places, it is well known that aviation safety is leveraged politically, and given very large dis-service as true events behind aviation incidents and accidents are often covered up and mis appropriated to others to protect some people from prison. Then the threat and latent hazards are rarely fully addressed. They are left like a disease in the aviation system with only the symptoms partially covered up - but the disease remains.

In many other countries, human errors are not criminalized. The human behavior has to reach criminal negligence and acts of willful safety and regulatory violations before criminal activity can be prosecuted. In the case of the Concorde crash, there were many many human errors much like any incident or accident. Some of these errors were of the caliber where licenses to operate/provide services could have been revoked - but there were no acts of criminal negligence in my opinion.

mtnflyer14

I was the senior member of a Mishap Board for a single A-4 accident and did the Judge Advocate General (JAG) investigation on an F-14 midair. The Navy's Mishap Board exists to determine causal factors and what can be done to prevent future mishaps. All statements to the Mishap Board are immune from legal action, which results in more honest statements and a better assessment of the mishap. However, JAG investigation statements can lead to legal culpability and everyone making a statement is apprised of that before making their statement. I'm not aware of instances where the JAG investigation actually resulted to criminal liability, but I do know that the privileged nature of the Mishap Board is an effective way to get the unvarnished truth.
Regards,
Gus