I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
05-26-2013, 05:24 AM
#26
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: Joe Westrich
Couple things:
I fly scale/warbird type of events and also jet events. There are way more crashes in the scale/warbird events than jets. I can speculate why, but it doesn't really matter anyway. The last event I went to was RT66 jets and there was 0 crashes over 1000's of flights. If you look at KY jets, biggest in the country, I believe there were two or three crashes and none was due to overspeeding the aircraft.... servo fail, and lost orientation on landing I believe.
I will agree there are always people out there pushing the limits but that is everywhere. A more frequent danger is some folks that are attempting to fly way more than they can handle. Are we going to propose regulations on that also. You can't regulate everything. Even if you do, you have to have someone to enforce it. We have regulations on speed now, but are you going to hire someone to radar every aircraft to take to the skys? If you see someone not following our rules, its up to YOU to walk up to them and say something. It would be far more productive than trying to put more rules on the books.
Also, regulating someone to put the manufactured recommended turbine in the aircraft to control speed is flawed. A Carf Flash recommends a 120 turbine which will still take it over 200mph. A P180, which is well over recommended for my Eurosport will still not take it to 200mph.
I would encourage less talk of rules and regulation and just go ahead and tap someone on the shoulder that you feel is acting in an unsafe manner. I bet it would have more significant results.
i was at KJ last year and saw two structural within a couple of hours. both weren't going real fast but it does validate my concerns about quality of the imports jets. "
Couple things:
I fly scale/warbird type of events and also jet events. There are way more crashes in the scale/warbird events than jets. I can speculate why, but it doesn't really matter anyway. The last event I went to was RT66 jets and there was 0 crashes over 1000's of flights. If you look at KY jets, biggest in the country, I believe there were two or three crashes and none was due to overspeeding the aircraft.... servo fail, and lost orientation on landing I believe.
I will agree there are always people out there pushing the limits but that is everywhere. A more frequent danger is some folks that are attempting to fly way more than they can handle. Are we going to propose regulations on that also. You can't regulate everything. Even if you do, you have to have someone to enforce it. We have regulations on speed now, but are you going to hire someone to radar every aircraft to take to the skys? If you see someone not following our rules, its up to YOU to walk up to them and say something. It would be far more productive than trying to put more rules on the books.
Also, regulating someone to put the manufactured recommended turbine in the aircraft to control speed is flawed. A Carf Flash recommends a 120 turbine which will still take it over 200mph. A P180, which is well over recommended for my Eurosport will still not take it to 200mph.
I would encourage less talk of rules and regulation and just go ahead and tap someone on the shoulder that you feel is acting in an unsafe manner. I bet it would have more significant results.
i was at KJ last year and saw two structural within a couple of hours. both weren't going real fast but it does validate my concerns about quality of the imports jets. "
05-26-2013, 05:27 AM
#27
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Everyone that has replied to this thread sees the correct way to enforce the issue involved. I belong to a club that had a problem with high speed flyers. The officers of that club got together and sent every member ( not just jet flyers) a memo telling them that we are being watched by BIG BROTHER. If we continue to fly at this high rate of speed, we stand a good chance of loosing our field. It is one of the best grass strip jet flying field I have ever been on. That memo got everyone thinking, and I have seen the high speed flyers slow it down a lot so everyone still has a place to fly. I guess these officers had the RIGHT STUFF to say something to protect their (our) field. No more regulations will solve the problems, it's entirely up to the PILOTS to take the actions to solve this problem.
Poor designed arf's can be made to fly safer if you have the knowledge and skill to see the problem and make corrections. Sure someone has already said "Why should we make the corrections?". Depends on the price and the money people want to put into ARF's.
Do we tell people that want to get into Jets that we won't let them fly that model jet if they show up at our event? It just takes common sence with a lot of the cheeper airframes out there as to what power plant goes in them. If you are a speed freak, then buy the airframe that stays together ( ones that we know are built for speed). If you like to have a safe airframe that needs more power to get out of a small field or you like to go higher than most, than by all means use a larger powerplant because you know how to throttle manage..........
Larry
Poor designed arf's can be made to fly safer if you have the knowledge and skill to see the problem and make corrections. Sure someone has already said "Why should we make the corrections?". Depends on the price and the money people want to put into ARF's.
Do we tell people that want to get into Jets that we won't let them fly that model jet if they show up at our event? It just takes common sence with a lot of the cheeper airframes out there as to what power plant goes in them. If you are a speed freak, then buy the airframe that stays together ( ones that we know are built for speed). If you like to have a safe airframe that needs more power to get out of a small field or you like to go higher than most, than by all means use a larger powerplant because you know how to throttle manage..........
Larry
05-26-2013, 05:27 AM
#28
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: tevans55
What can be done now is the simple enforcement of the existing rules. When we fly anything around spectators there should be an Air Boss or CD who is the final authority. When we fun fly daily with other pilots they assume the risks of flying with others and generally know the limitations of the aircraft in the air and know to keep a lookout for a wayward aircraft. That is not true with spectators who do not know the potential dangers of a wayward aircraft. My suggestion, based on what you shared, is perhaps to limit the size of events to what can be enforced by a CD or Air Boss particularly where more than a few spectators are involved. That would provide a good start.
Also, your comment about the AMA Council...as the leadership goes so goes the membership.
ORIGINAL: warbird_1
I'm talking mostly about the spectators . but what bothered me was the fact that it happened in clear site of the AMA council while they were conducting a meeting while that plane was clearly breaking the 200 MPH mark set by AMA. that bothered me
I'm talking mostly about the spectators . but what bothered me was the fact that it happened in clear site of the AMA council while they were conducting a meeting while that plane was clearly breaking the 200 MPH mark set by AMA. that bothered me
Also, your comment about the AMA Council...as the leadership goes so goes the membership.
05-26-2013, 05:39 AM
#29
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Then it's up to the club that is hosting the event to tell this pilot to land and not fly in that manner again or he/she will be grounded for the rest of the event, and that encludes the after flying when the event is offically over. If you want to hold events like this again, then the host club has to take charge and enforce the rules. AMA will not step in at this time because the event ended at, let's say 5 PM.....
Larry
Larry
05-26-2013, 05:54 AM
#30
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
We want to try to regulate the manufacture now??
Most jet manufactures are outside of our country and will not be concerned with our rules.
It just comes down to less talk and more personal action.
Most jet manufactures are outside of our country and will not be concerned with our rules.
It just comes down to less talk and more personal action.
05-26-2013, 08:19 AM
#32
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: warbird_1
We pretty much self regulate now and hero's go unchecked. We need rules that are enforceable . not to police good pilots but discipline the cowboys . if your not breaking the rules, you have nothing to worry about. just opinion
We pretty much self regulate now and hero's go unchecked. We need rules that are enforceable . not to police good pilots but discipline the cowboys . if your not breaking the rules, you have nothing to worry about. just opinion
PaulD
05-26-2013, 08:52 AM
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: PaulD
Here's the problem. Before we can even consider any new rules, figure out a way to enforce the ones that exist. Review them for validity and revise them so they are manageable by the people who will have to enforce them.
PaulD
ORIGINAL: warbird_1
We pretty much self regulate now and hero's go unchecked. We need rules that are enforceable . not to police good pilots but discipline the cowboys . if your not breaking the rules, you have nothing to worry about. just opinion
We pretty much self regulate now and hero's go unchecked. We need rules that are enforceable . not to police good pilots but discipline the cowboys . if your not breaking the rules, you have nothing to worry about. just opinion
PaulD
05-26-2013, 10:13 AM
#34
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. And then he actually enforces those rules with warnings if needed. I've seen this work and it works well. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
05-26-2013, 10:29 AM
#35
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: warbird_1
As i rifle through the jet forums and see multiple problems with airframes and their failures i have to wonder how no one has been seriously injured or worst yet .. killed. I'm talking mostly about the spectators . I was at Joe Nall a few years ago when a well know pilot fireballed his turbine into the runway . Though in my opinion ,it wasn't his fault . but what bothered me was the fact that it happened in clear site of the AMA council while they were conducting a meeting while that plane was clearly breaking the 200 MPH mark set by AMA. that bothered me.. I like every other pipe jockey love to go fast but you have to ask , how fast is fast enough ? What i'm getting at is the fact that i see over and over , guys putting way to much power in some of these air frames. I would like to see a set of regulations that make a jet builder/flyer adhere to the manufacture recommended power plant for their air frame. I believe that being proactive rather than reactive is the best approach. As everyone knows, we are under a microscope as it is and one bad event could really hurt the whole modeling community . i would like to start and open and non-combative discussion on this topic . i'm in no means in favor of more rules and regulations and we have had a really good safety record and i'd like to see it stay that way . I'm not putting all jet flyers in the same mold,but the few percentage that put safety second are the ones i'm concerned about . The second concern is the quality of some of the ARF's being sold to us. The manufactures have little or no vested interest in our future as modelers. That is evident by the lack of quality which translates into lack of safety concerns. they are protected against legal action , we are not . i welcome ideas good and bad but let's keep in civil
As i rifle through the jet forums and see multiple problems with airframes and their failures i have to wonder how no one has been seriously injured or worst yet .. killed. I'm talking mostly about the spectators . I was at Joe Nall a few years ago when a well know pilot fireballed his turbine into the runway . Though in my opinion ,it wasn't his fault . but what bothered me was the fact that it happened in clear site of the AMA council while they were conducting a meeting while that plane was clearly breaking the 200 MPH mark set by AMA. that bothered me.. I like every other pipe jockey love to go fast but you have to ask , how fast is fast enough ? What i'm getting at is the fact that i see over and over , guys putting way to much power in some of these air frames. I would like to see a set of regulations that make a jet builder/flyer adhere to the manufacture recommended power plant for their air frame. I believe that being proactive rather than reactive is the best approach. As everyone knows, we are under a microscope as it is and one bad event could really hurt the whole modeling community . i would like to start and open and non-combative discussion on this topic . i'm in no means in favor of more rules and regulations and we have had a really good safety record and i'd like to see it stay that way . I'm not putting all jet flyers in the same mold,but the few percentage that put safety second are the ones i'm concerned about . The second concern is the quality of some of the ARF's being sold to us. The manufactures have little or no vested interest in our future as modelers. That is evident by the lack of quality which translates into lack of safety concerns. they are protected against legal action , we are not . i welcome ideas good and bad but let's keep in civil
05-26-2013, 10:53 AM
#36
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Andy,
I agree with you 100% the other part of that is Perception, people need to accurately measure the speed of the aircraft to actually make sure it's going faster than the 200MPH limit. At an event, we thought a couple of jet jocks where actually flying faster, so we got out the radar guns only to find out they where at 180 MPH when all of us where sure they where doing 220+. Not saying some might not be breaking the rules, but we need to verify it first and then call the pilot on it. How many events have you been to where the speeds where measured? Let's find a problem or identify the problem child's before we look for more rules to impose.
Ralph
I agree with you 100% the other part of that is Perception, people need to accurately measure the speed of the aircraft to actually make sure it's going faster than the 200MPH limit. At an event, we thought a couple of jet jocks where actually flying faster, so we got out the radar guns only to find out they where at 180 MPH when all of us where sure they where doing 220+. Not saying some might not be breaking the rules, but we need to verify it first and then call the pilot on it. How many events have you been to where the speeds where measured? Let's find a problem or identify the problem child's before we look for more rules to impose.
Ralph
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
05-26-2013, 10:58 AM
#37
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Andy and All,
I believe the current AMA Safety Regs for Turbines are fine and don't see a requirement for anyaddtional regs-if the current ones are enforced.
Last year, I attended and flew turbines at 11 jet events, some were a gathering of a dozenguys while others were sizable, 50-75+ pilots-ie, Capitol Jets and the Horizon Air Meet. Hundreds of flights were made in total at these events with very few losses, mostly due to bad landings. Regarding speed, I witnessed a singlecase where a non-flying club member brought his own radar gun and was taking speed measurements of the pilots. Most runs were in the 150-170 MPH range but one pilot decided to dive thru and recorded a 206 MPH run downwind. The pilot was warned and the radar gun put away with no further infractions during the event. The turbine size was appropriate for thejet andthe pilot was skilled in flying it.The CD made the decision to warn the pilot and that ended the situation.
Structural integrity of jet models is the purview of the manuafcturer and builder/ownerthis is difficult to regulate.Most manufacturs post a recommended engine size for their models and others even specify a Vne. However, it all comes back to the pilot-in-command on exercising their control of the left stick. You can't regulate common sense when it comes to safety but you can self-police it when necessary.
Art ARRO, Turbine CD
I believe the current AMA Safety Regs for Turbines are fine and don't see a requirement for anyaddtional regs-if the current ones are enforced.
Last year, I attended and flew turbines at 11 jet events, some were a gathering of a dozenguys while others were sizable, 50-75+ pilots-ie, Capitol Jets and the Horizon Air Meet. Hundreds of flights were made in total at these events with very few losses, mostly due to bad landings. Regarding speed, I witnessed a singlecase where a non-flying club member brought his own radar gun and was taking speed measurements of the pilots. Most runs were in the 150-170 MPH range but one pilot decided to dive thru and recorded a 206 MPH run downwind. The pilot was warned and the radar gun put away with no further infractions during the event. The turbine size was appropriate for thejet andthe pilot was skilled in flying it.The CD made the decision to warn the pilot and that ended the situation.
Structural integrity of jet models is the purview of the manuafcturer and builder/ownerthis is difficult to regulate.Most manufacturs post a recommended engine size for their models and others even specify a Vne. However, it all comes back to the pilot-in-command on exercising their control of the left stick. You can't regulate common sense when it comes to safety but you can self-police it when necessary.
Art ARRO, Turbine CD
05-26-2013, 03:28 PM
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Best thing in jet safety is jet cost factor normaly keeps skilled compentent people at the sticks with out any Micky mouse components normaly just saying this should be enough
05-26-2013, 03:54 PM
#41
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. And then he actually enforces those rules with warnings if needed. I've seen this work and it works well. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
05-26-2013, 05:49 PM
#43
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
you guys be nice on threads keep it normal dont take it bad just take it all planes are fun and can crash keep it safe these are heavy i have a turbine only fly when no one is in area no parks or anyone around 408 746 5346 dave
05-26-2013, 08:01 PM
#44
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
While were at it lets tax the wealthy jet owners and make them pay for the poor jet owners that way it will be fair to everyone! WE have enough rules! Hope I made my point! Why is it you can tell the people that want to make more rule by the state they live in? Lets see how long till I get deleted. [:@]
05-26-2013, 09:51 PM
#45
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
I wish every one thought the way they do in Texas! Wouldn't this be a much nicer country? Just Dreaming!
We have ENOUGH rules! Jet guys already fly by an additional set of rules and rightly so. If it ani't broke don't fix it!
We have ENOUGH rules! Jet guys already fly by an additional set of rules and rightly so. If it ani't broke don't fix it!
05-26-2013, 09:55 PM
#46
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. And then he actually enforces those rules with warnings if needed. I've seen this work and it works well. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. And then he actually enforces those rules with warnings if needed. I've seen this work and it works well. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
05-27-2013, 06:57 PM
#47
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. And then he actually enforces those rules with warnings if needed. I've seen this work and it works well. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
Rules are already set in place. What is needed is more enforcement of the existing rules from CDs at events. A good example is what Lewis does at KY Jets. At the beginning of each day there is a pilots meeting to remind all of the pilots of the rules. And then he actually enforces those rules with warnings if needed. I've seen this work and it works well. Making another rule isn't going to change a thing unless it's enforced in the first place. What makes anyone think that placing more rules on the books is going to change anything if the original rules aren't enforced? The only way to do this is for all to expect to be called out when breaking the rules and for those who are charged to enforce them to do their jobs.
I see no benefit from creating more rules.
Andy
05-28-2013, 04:34 AM
#48
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RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
Warbird 1,
After all this discussion, I'd like to see your proposed addendum to the AMA Safety Code. Please enlighten us.
Art ARRO
After all this discussion, I'd like to see your proposed addendum to the AMA Safety Code. Please enlighten us.
Art ARRO
05-28-2013, 04:53 AM
#49
RE: I'd Like to propose an addendum to the safety code
ORIGINAL: warbird_1
there can be provisions made for your condition . i'm just trying to think of a way to hold careless and reckless people accountable , not drown myself or anyone else in rules. but when i go to an event i want to feel safe, sometimes i don't
ORIGINAL: ozief16
Something else to think about is the varying environments in which we fly. For instance we can approach 6k' density altitude. I run a P120 in my BV mig, not because I want to go fast (not at all the plane for it), but because it feels more like a 100 at 2k and 100 deg F. Do you want a guy in Denver marginally powered because he followed the std recommendation but in reality is far below that thrust level in his environment?
Dave
Something else to think about is the varying environments in which we fly. For instance we can approach 6k' density altitude. I run a P120 in my BV mig, not because I want to go fast (not at all the plane for it), but because it feels more like a 100 at 2k and 100 deg F. Do you want a guy in Denver marginally powered because he followed the std recommendation but in reality is far below that thrust level in his environment?
Dave
If you go to an event and feel unsafe, the. Get your butt out of your chair and go talk to the event director and express your concerns!
If you do not speak up, they cant fix the problem as they may be to busy with other things to watch the flying going on all day
