At most of the IMAA meets I have attended, there has always been some conflict between the 3D guys and the guys flying the pattern.
With the onset of new jet models capable of 3D hitting the jet circuit, I am just curious whether there should be a set of rules established to help avoid some midair disasters. I find myself not comfortable flying a 3D capable aircraft at meets the same way I would at my home field. I'm curious how others feel about pilots performing 3D at meets and what we can do to improve the safety for both airframe and pilot/spectator while flying these routines.
Thoughts???
Todd

It's called courtesy. Just talk to each other on the flight line. I've never had a problem doing either 3d or precision at a contest or general fly-in. Communication BEFORE an incident will eliminate the occurrance of said incident.

Completely agree, communication is key to helping avoid a problem but.... Perhaps rules like no High Alpha over the runway, keeping these types of manuvers further out so the guys doing low passes are still clear might help..... Just trying to see what the general consesus is. Regardless of calling your manuver, some manuvers can just be an issue for other pilots. I know the torque rollers are always a problem at giant scale meets, hogging the runway with a plane in a hover seems to be a big problem.... What can we do as 3D pilots to make the rest of the Jet community happy....
Todd

I agree Doug. I don't have a problem with any High Alpha, flippity floppity stuff. Communication on the flight line is paramount. Speaking of 3d and things that make other pilots want to kill you...............Can you set up for a couple of gallons of regular smoke oil for me at FIJR and a pump and a little bit of hose to get me some smoke on the Isobar?

I've got all the details done on the jet shipment, I thought I was gonna need help, but at this point it looks like I'll be able to handle everything accept a good solid 12 VOLT battery, a jersey model can or alternative means of fueling, and I need a couple gallons of smoke oil and a way to pump it in. Basic tools for assembly would be nice as well.

This is going to be FUN!! Now get to Tango'n cause I want to try that baby out (but no HITEC'S ON IT!!!!!!!!!!)

Sean,
I got the way to pump it but not sure if there is anyone around here that carries oil? Why not call tower and have it shipped to my house?Oh....and NO HITECS in the Tango
LMK,
Todd

Todd,
Just keep your 3D"N Eurofighter outta the way of my Super Sonic SuperBandit at the FIJR please.

Trust me scott....I aint gettin anywhere near that balistic missle of yours [sm=bananahead.gif]. Glad your coming, it will be good to see you again!
BRG,
Todd

Todd,
Me and Joe will be there Thursday afternoon. I'll try to do some 3D with you with my new Kingcat. I look forward to seeing you.
Scott

Scott,

If you do a fast fly by w/your Super Bandit be sure you can manuever around the guys doing low level square loops and slow fly by's over the edge of the runway in front of the pilots' stations----This is what went on at Superman w/six jets in the air.... I liked watching all of this but I cringed at the thought of a mid-air.

Kevin

sounds like this is becoming a real issue. looks like spotters jobs are getting a little more difficult.
Scott

it's always fun till someone gets midair'd.

We had several complaints at a recent "big boird" fly at our field from the pilots. I think the 3d activity may end up limited to when you are flying by yourself, or perhaps some windows of time set by the cd during the day. For the most part though I think jet pilots just get along better than most other breeds.... or maybe we just learn more quickly who we do not want to fly with.

Todd, I'll just ship it to you from here I get it at my LHS for about $10.00 a gallon. Just thougth if your LHS carried regular smoke oil along with their glow fuel stuff, it'd be easier just to have it there. Oh well. Man this is going to be great!@!!!

That's what makes Superman fun! On a more serious note: I agree with all of you regarding communications being the first consideration. With the advent of EuroSports, KingCats, Boomerangs, etc. there should be a general rule that 3D stuff take place within (center of) the "pattern" in the same direction of the pattern. It gets boring seeing Bandits, BobCats, etc. going 200 MPH down the runway!

My opinion

Thanks

Nick,

I agree it was really fun....I stood there with my mouth gaping open, watching in marvel how these jets can now fly the way they do.[8D] I'm also in support of your idea of doing 3D flying in the center, flying w/the pattern. This would be much safer. I just believe that it is unsafe for a jet to be flying in the pattern, do a quick pop-up to begin a square loop, only to have a 150-200 mph jet following behind to strain itself through the first jet that is in the middle of a square loop. There's too much going on at jet rallies for a spotter to keep up with what everyone else is doing, especially with unexpected 3D right in front of you on the edge of the runway. I've got a Euro Sport coming and I plan to explore some of its' 3D capabilities. I'm now beginning to slowly explore the 3D capabilities of my thrust vectored Rookie....If I can just get someone to tell me if the Rookie will come out of a tumble easily!!!! Courtesy/communication is the key to safe 3D flying at events.

Pat,

I know what you mean about choosing who you fly with....I overheard several guys say they wouldn't get in the air when this one individual was flying....

Kevin

For the record, Jerry Caudle reported, that there was a midair at Superman this year, the first one in 8 years. I didn't hear any of the particulars. I agree about communication being key to all of this. I see alot of people with spotters who don't seem to be anymore than warm bodies standing next to the flier. I wonder how many people actually spot and communicate appropriate info to the flier they are with. Other than the last second scream, LOOKOUT.
Roger

So why are you reporting it??? I saw it, it happened to be two jets travelling in the race track pattern. One was a facet, the other was a Maverick, neither one were doing 3D. BTW there was one either last year or the year before between two F-106's


Just curious how does a square loop classify as 3D? The majority of what was being called 3D at Superman was nothing more than aerobatics. There was no hovering and most of the vertical up in front aerobatics were flown in the center of the pattern. Anytime you fly at a big event like Superman when there are multiple airplanes (like more than 4) in the air at any given time you are at risk of a midair. The single biggest problem on the flightline at Superman was lack of communication. Several times I heard the comment that the spotter or pilot would announce their intentions and no one would aknowledge that they had heard it. Some spotters stood their intent on what their pilot was doing and did not pay any attention to anyone else in the air. It is not that diffucult to fly with several other planes and I did not see any problems with the "3D" when pilots and spotters were communicating. It would be mighty boring if all of us were forced to just simply fly around in a racetrack pattern lap after lap at an event.

Communication, and experienced spotters are essential.

DR

Yeah.... Most of the stuff I saw (or did) this year was really just High Alpha and aerobatics. Not really 3D, but the speed and trajectory differences are very large.
Was it really 8 years ago when Garland H and Mike K mid-aired? Maybe it was since it was after the 95 JWM.
Caller stress is going up, but with the speed and manuevering differnces, it is not a completely avoidable environment.

DJR

Yeah, square loops are considered aerobatics....In my opinion when they are performed in a realistic manner. A square loop flown within a 100 foot box is in the very least "extreme aerobatics". Doing it in front of other pilots' faces is very distracting and RUDE!!! Kind of reminds me of the 3D aerobat or heli hovering in front of you. Mid-airs are one of the hazards that you will encounter when flying with more than one plane in the air---That's a given. One of these days there's gonna be a mid-air----pieces of plane are going to hit someone, it will be all over but the cryin' and the law suits. I like 3D and extreme aerobatics as much as the next guy buy I'm going to do mine when under less risky circumstances.

Kevin

Kevin,

JC stressed at every pilot's meeting that ALL passes were to be on the far side of the runway. Maybe I missed something but I did not see any square loops or any other flying done in anyone's face. I guess it is all in your perspective. BTW where would you suggest someone hovering a helicopter since you bring that up? Sounds like you and I never need to fly together......you whine to much.

Agree, Did not see anyone doing manuevers in anyones face. They were where they should have been.

DJR

Lets not forget the guys who turn the smoke on while taking off or running in the start-up areas.

I agree with DavidR, a snap is not 3D, show me your jet doing tail touches after a rolling harrier into a wall and Ill go buy one of what your flying.

The Imac Ive seen was business until after the contest was over, then it was fun time and the guys that could were 3Ding their birds. Only ones flying during the contest were the ones competing...

.02

I agree that spotters are becoming VERY important now. Our field has a large group of imac flyers and it has been a struggle to get along with them hovering directly on front of the runway center with no concern for patterns. Two years ago i was flying my AD F-16 when an imac plane abruptly pulled vertical right as i was making a fast pass.I drove right thru his horz stab and took it off like a saw. He went in and i finished my flight, landed with some splits here and there on the fuse.The guy was not happy and we almost had a fight.This past march i had a midair with my new roo with the same group of guys. The flight stations at our field are spread far apart and its tough to talk to another flyer. My spotters are now VERY important and i also try not to fly when the imac guys are in the air or come out and fly during the week when its not busy.
Our jet 3D stuff is not like the imac flying where they hang on the prop and do tork rolls forever going up and down like a yo yo.

After going to meets where guys are flying 3D, I've gotta say that its all about communication, and common courtesy. If your up with 1 or 2 guys, and they don't mind you hovering, flipping around down low (out of there way), its not a big deal. I'd only feel comfortable if I knew the other pilots and discussed it with them prior to flying in that manner.

At events, to really do some 3D stuff, you'd have to be up by yourself, or fly up higher or lower to stay out of the way of the others.

Whenever there's 3+ people flying, forget it, it's not worth it (doing 3D).

As for the midair at superman, I was calling for the Maverick pilot, and by the time I finished saying "watch out", they hit. The closure rate is unreal with the jets.

hmmm... there is more than one David R in the jet community.
David Ribbe