I am a former JPO member, not a current member basically because I am just coming around to restarting back into jets after a long break.

I was thinking about re-joining, but really I don't know if I will yet.
When I think back, I couldn't really think of any reason why I was a member before, just really because a few jet friends said I should join so I did.

Like the post above, I don't want to start a s*** storm, but really want to know why I should join. Not being an ass at all, just want to know why we should and I will rejoin.

David,
I will say this, I WAS a JPO member when the incident with BV and proposed changes were submitted to the AMA and JPO upper members. At that time as a JPO member I was not told or sent a copy of the letter until I found out about it on RCU and then had to ask for a copy of it. As a member of an organization that is supposed to represent the individuals who pay to be a member I found that to be completely unacceptable. If I give an organization my support (monetarily or physical) that is supposed to be representing my interests I want as much information sent to me as soon as possible so that I can make an informed decision and make that decision heard. That one incident was enough to make me question why I was a member of the JPO and I did not renew my membership the next year. If you have changed that policy then I applaude you for it, but that one major incident really left a bad taste in my mouth and it was enough.

Also, let me say this how hard would it be to throw a simple survey up on a website for all the jetpilots to go to so you could get their opinions. You don't have to take emails from everyone but do a in depth survey of the issues to see what everyone, not just the JPO members, think about these changes. I would be more than happy to help in that aspect and it would not take up alot of space on your or any other webserver and it would give you hard numbers of everyone concerned and not just a select few.

Patrick.

Patrick, my .02 is that none of us have to be an AMA member. None of us have to be a JPO member. If you choose to be an AMA member, you choose to abide by their rules and regulations, however they come up with them. Unless you want to run for officer of AMA or other higher position than regular member, you're gonna take whatever crap they decide to dish out. Again, you don't have to join to have fun in RC Turbines/planes, etc.

Whatever rules, regs BS comes up at AMA, most of us eat it because we want to fly at AMA insured fields, cause in most cases, it's a pretty good place to get togeher with other people and BS, and fly planes.

Now, let's say AMA comes out and says, 12 lbs thrust is best we'll insure you for. And then all the sudden Bob Violett, or you, or some other yahoo says that's crap, I need 40 lbs of thrust or other number. The ama looks at that sole individual and says "I got a million members, go jump in a lake you individual".

Then all the sudden I hear of this JPO thing. A subgroup of AMA members (assuming that all jpo members are also members of the AMA as if that weren't true, that'd be wierd) anyway, this JPO says we got a bunch of AMA members that are affected, and this is what makes sense for them...............

Quite a good idea I think. Just keep considering that if there is no JPO or lobby group for turbine RC guys, then there is only sitting back and watching people legislate your hobby into whatever they consider fair for you. And when you don't like it, tough cookies.

I don't care whether anyone joins jpo or not, I just recently a few weeks ago sent in my bucks cause I decided, what the hell, JPO is absolutely nothing without numbers................................

I have no idea where the $25.00 goes, but if I had to guess, some of it went towards air fare to go talk to the ama in person and lobby them for what is good for us lowly AMA members that fly turbines (a potentially dangerous subgroup of the ama).

But even if it's paying for Steve's next Bandit, I don't really really care, cause I simply understand that if I don't pay it, then my number (me) is not adding to the total number of JPO members. #'s are a good thing. Consider this.........what if AMA comes back and says, you know what, turbines are too much out of the scope of our average representation. No more turbines. I'm not gonna stop flying turbine, but now I can't fly at AMA field. Hmmmmmm. I go get special insurance (12,000.00 a year). Nope, not gonna happne. Ok, insurance what if I have 3000 guys like me, then how much. Geee, having JPO memebrs now is a good thing. cause we can make a stand together. That's what it's all about!!

Sean,
Ok once again, you say that you joined for just to add another number to the JPO membership. What if your voice is not heard by them? What if they propose a rule that you did not hear about or did not agree with? Now you just have added numbers to an organization who did not work for you. I believe in supporting an organization that is going to look out for my interests, but like I said before the BV incident put a bad taste in my mouth and that was enough for me.

David,
If I ever did join again, I probably would not last long because I would be a royal pain in the butt sending emails back and forth with the president asking what is going on, is there any new issues, is the JPO going to be doing anything about x, y or z, when are you going to contact the ama president to address this issue, yada yada yada.

Don't get me wrong I do care about the future of turbine flying since I do fly them, but don't ask me to just blindly follow the crowd because everyone thinks it is a good idea. I am one voice out of probably a few thousand but one voice can be very very loud when it needs to be.

Patrick.

Hey Bob,
Is the JPO insuring me or the issuer of my waiver? Is the JPO changing the rules,or the AMA.That's nice that the JPO released this info in their newsletters,but what about the rest of the waivered AMA members who are affected by this.I just recently found out about the JPO,and had not made a decision about joining yet.I fly at a local field,usually during the week,and am not a coffee clotch type of guy.I've been following this jet thing for some time,and been flying d/f aircraft.The waiver process/rules have continually become more and more cumbersome,so I recently jumped off the fence and got my waiver,and will be flying a turbine next season.Whatever new hoops we have to jump through to maintain certification,I will.My point is that all the regulations in the world will not stop a moron(with money)from getting a jet and doing damage.I don't believe the system is broke now,so why is it being fixed.I'm gathering from the other thread that a/c and engine restrictions are being relaxed(via JPO lobbying),and I think that's great,but the recertification thing really bugs me.What if I don't fly 20 flights in front of a TCD?Then I can't enjoy my hobby until I do?Again,I have people here who will help me,but I'm sure not everyone is so lucky.And bottom line,the AMA should have posted notice about rule changes that affect it's members,regardless of what the JPO does.
Erik

I'm not complain here.
I just like to share my opinion to make it better.
$25 is nothing. I give away to bump on street more than that a years.
Had my name in the JPO doesn't proof anything to me.
I don't know what is your point have me to join JPO.
If JPO need $25. I can send that as donation. But don't tell me to join JPO to have my opinion speak loudly here.
If my opinion was out of line. Correct me.
Don't personally attack my opinion.
That doesn't make it sound good on public forum. Specialy you rep for someone.
Brg,
Tam
P.S.
I don't want to debate with you. It going nowhere.



]

Just curious why THIS proposal from JPO was not posted on the web site like it had always been done in the past?????

Guys.. I don't think this is the proper time for a "JPO bashing party" or a "Why should I join the JPO?" argument. Dave Brown is seriously looking to put the clamps on our facet of the hobby. We need to focus on stopping his efforts to screw us over.

I don't care whether I agree with the rules or disagree with them. I know that if I want to fly, I have to abide by them or risk my (given) right to fly at AMA fields.

Any of us can say they don't agree and go fly off of a highway in the desert all by your lonesome or with your friends or whatever.

I like to fly at AMA fields and events and so I will trust that the JPO is working on our behalf lobbying the ama to produce rules that are Safe and keep the element of fun associated with turbine flight going.

Seriously, if you don't get any of that, you're an idiot and none of us can help you. I know that's offensive, to say you're an idiot, but I don't mean it such that you might actually be someone who can't feed themself. I mean it that I was very clear, and most people can come to the conclusion that as an individual in the JPO or an individual in the AMA membership, your voice does not count for crap. Neither does mine. It's not "hey I'm a jpo member and the jpo owes me something". JPO does not owe you or me anything. We pay becuase we believe. It's a faith thing. No one owes any of us anything from JPO. AMA only owes us the limits of the insurance and other minor advantages to being a member.

We want to know!!! We want to know!!![:@]

Why not post the proposal on the web and see what happens or we are scared of publicity???

No governing body has lasted with no democracy!!!

As a turbine newbie, but long time member of the AMA, why would it not have been a more plausible thing to recommend a tiered system where the guys who want to fly the big powerplants and heavy birds have a recert process, while allowing those who are just getting started and fly the smaller engines an opportunity to build time and experience without having a big hassle? When you have large meets those with the lower rating have to produce a flight log or a demo flight for the CD prior to the event. I am asking from the point of view that some form of regulation could be mandated that would not make it seem like it was putting an undue burden on the "casual" flier. I fly about 3-4 hours per week, but will not be able to fly my turbines every week because there is no suitable field. I agree that 10 flights a year is not much, and should be the minimal requirement to maintain competency, but we just keep making it harder and less receptive for those like me who live in an area which is less populated and not quite in the 21st century as of yet.
Tommy

Exactly my points Doug and JPO has been the ones fighting for everyone that is here *****ing.


Tam,

No debate here and it does not matter who I rep for. I fly jets and I see a real problem here, Dave Brown does NOT want to see us enjoying our hobby. You criticise JPO when JPO seems to me to be the only way we can communicate our viewpoint to the AMA.


Sirrom,

When you were a JPO member, and I do remember that point in time there was a lot of discussion on the JPO email list. Email the JPO president or your JPO District rep as much as you want that's what they are there for. But also keep in mind that they also have full time jobs and lives outside of JPO, it is a thankless task as you guys are fully expressing right now. Makes me wonder why any of us bother....I guess it's just because we all love to fly jets too.


Doc Yates,

I think that is a great idea. I don't mind recertifying once a month if that is what it takes. You guys are blowing this thing all out of proportion. If you want to fly jets contact your AMA VP and tell him that you want to fly jets! If you don't want that privledge then just ignore what is happening up at AMA right now!

So we join the ama to look out for the interests of the hobby (remember the ama isn't an insurance co :^) then the jpo was formed to give the jet group a voice in the ama as we're not always sure the ama has our interests at heart and now it appears we should form another group as we're not sure the jpo is representing our interests correctly either, lol. I thought by joining the ama I was joining an organization that had the modelers interests in mind but...... now I find that I need to join several subgroups to make sure that my interest is looked after? I'm not a member of the jpo, I did join the imaa so that I could fly at imaa events and so they would look out for our interest but that appears to have run into some trouble as well. All I'm peeved about is that I may have to start traveling 2-1/2 hours several times in 2 years to have a turbine waiver holder watch me as I fly to make sure that I'm still qualified and somehow didn't cheat on my initial exam..... Next I plan to qualify for my Tailtouch waiver, no wait, I need to qualify for my inverted waiver first or is it my...LOL,. Can we possibly put some more rules into effect, there's still a little fun left in the hobby to suck out!!!!! (JK)


Jon

edited to add: I wonder how far I'm going to have to travel now to get my inverted waiver, lol

David,
Was there any reason this particular proposal was not posted on the JPO site? For some reason I had not been getting my contrails and instead have been checking the JPO and district site but nothing was posted on either about the coming proposal???
Todd

David,
In regards to your statement. I have contacted my D-VP (V) and expressed my concerns. I also recently printed off the ap and made out a check for JPO. I don't mind supporting the organization and think that they have done an admirable job. But don't automatically assume I am sitting on my haunches doing nothing. I do work most every weekend and most every day of the week so being able to travel to most of the meets is difficult. It is my hope that my representation also includes my views. I am not sure why a tiered system would not work, but maybe we should look at it. Wouldn't hurt for it be istituted throughout the AMA, not just with turbines, but I won't open that can of worms.
Tommy[&:]

No debate here and it does not matter who I rep for. I fly jets and I see a real problem here, Dave Brown does NOT want to see us enjoying our hobby. You criticise JPO when JPO seems to me to be the only way we can communicate our viewpoint to the AMA.



When did I criticise JPO?
I just put my opinion for JPO purpose buddy box system. If this systems are purpose to AMA. That is great.
Rules got to be balance. That is another of my opinion.
How can you find my words criticise JPO?
Maybe I ask Grodon to explain my vietnamlish writing.

You start attacking my personal feeling about $25 to join JPO. What is your point? Calling me Cheap like you call others.
Even I'm not 100% with my english writing. But I do understand what your meaning behide it.
Don't post something to attack other personal feeling. That is how it start ugly.
For once, do you ever read your own post and give a second though if your post can offended someone.
To get smoke. Someone must start a fire right?

So forget all about this. I had raise my voice. If you took it wrong way.
No point for me kept writing.
Tam

Tam,

My posts were not intended that way, you did however suggest that JPO do something and you are not supporting JPO finiancially right? And no I am not calling you cheap.

Not everyone is a rep for a big turbine company and gets stuff at or below wholesale. Some of us have real jobs and don't "hobby" for a living.

In regards to the new undisclosed rules, this quote is interseting:

...I will comment that some of the reports floating around in discussions here as to what the regulations are, are out in left field. Now it appears that some are wanting to change what has been done. The new regulations, as they are right now, have several increases in pilot requirements, but it was felt that the reductions in airframe restrictions more than offset this. The net result being a safer set of regulations that are more fun for the pilots and better for all....

-Steven Ellzey
President, Jet Pilot's Organization

Translation: If you're already "in" and you want a bigger/faster plane....you're good to go. If you don't already have your turbine waiver......sorry.

How does a "reduction in airframe restrictions" MORE than offset restricting the people that can fly and increasing the hoops to jump through.

You should want to attract MORE people to the hobby, not DETER people. Safety is key, I agree, but I will invent a cord that runs between tranmitters so that an experienced pilot can train a new or less experienced pilot. Wait a minute...that's already been done.

It doesn't take long for representatives to become politicians as we have already seen with the AMA. The JPO and ALL AMA members must fight to keep this a hobby and not an occupation.

I just got my waiver this Summer. I have not even made my first Turbine flight yet and it looks like the rules are changing. I live in Oklahoma and I am the 3rd waiver holder in the state. I had to drive 8 hours just to get my check ride done. While I do not want to have to do that every year I will if it is required. I am not a member of the JPO, Since there are no other Jet guys around here I did not even know about it or what it does until this post. I do plan on joining the group because the voices of many are stronger then the voice of one. I will reserve judgment on the new rules until I read them for myself but I can tell you that more restrictions and rules derived from non-jet flyers are not the way to go and will just push people away from the sport. I sure would like to get a look at the rules before they are just push on me. Remember after all this is supposed to be fun.

Where did all this come from? I am a rep because I truly love this hobby and I spend a lot of time doing it. I travelled to 9 jet events this year, and at least 6 or 7 local events. Do you think reps get paid for this? Jeez if I didn't enjoy this hobby so much do you think I would be wasting my breath on this right now? Your translation is way off and you are jumping to conclusions without seeing the whole picture.

Is a freedom to join or not.
I just make my a opinion here on RCU. Listen or not doesn't matter. What is the big deal. But personal attack about joining JPO.
You are out of line.
We are on RCU public forum. I allow to give any opinion as long didn't break any rules.
Beside, what wrong with my opinion?
Can you tell me why?
Don't give me that crab about join JPO to give my opinion.
If you stated your post clearly only JPO allow to give their opinion.
I would never chime in.
I respect your clear instruction.

Tam

Well, I am going to try and put this in perspective so here goes.

Without the JPO, the AMA will make the rules for us with little or no input from Jet pilots. If you think your individual loud voice or even several individual loud voices will deter the AMA or cause them to tailor new rules that you agree with, well then, I will just say that naivety knows no bounds. Without the JPO, the jet community does not have a credible voice!

Just envision this scenario: There is no JPO but jet modelers as individuals, every last one of them (yeah right), submit their hundreds of individual rules or rules change proposals to the AMA. With no one to lobby in favor of the proposals do you honestly think the AMA will seriously consider any of the proposals from that mess that lacks any cohesion?

I trust that those with the motivation to serve the JPO in an official capacity do have the interests of jet modelers in mind. Not for a second do I trust the AMA to act fairly on our behalf without the input of the JPO. Because I don't choose to get involved, I refrain from criticism.

Just as with our elected public officials, I do not expect them to review every piece of proposed legislation with me before they act on it. If I have a concern, I need to bring it to their attention! What have you put before the JPO for consideration?

And yes, I am a current JPO member.

Aren't we then just treating the condition and not solving the problem. If the ama isn't doing what it was designed to do, which I thought was promote the hobby and look out for the modelers, maybe people should be elected to the ama that will look out for everyone's interest? I'm as guilty of this as anyone, I will from now on pay more attention to who is elected.


Jon

Thanks Steve
That is better way to ask people to join JPO.
If the number count and JPO come up with the simple and safe rules for new pilots getting the waivers.
I support that. But if the rules make it go wrong direction and make it harder for current waiver holder to obtain their waiver. Ofcourse, I'm not put my name down to support that.
Tam

Funny,
I thought AMA's Mission was to promote model aviation.Insurance came along later. Now you have splinter groups for all faucets of the hobby. Thats good, but where did AMA end their orginal mission and start to only protect their revenue?? YES YES, they need to cover their butts, but now it seems that's all they do!. So you need JPO to lobby them and well that's fine and good but no one should be able to totally dictate new regulations without the AMA's memberships blessing. In other words, where is the democracy in AMA? You vote in officer's, but that's it! If new regulations cost more or entail more steps to fly something, put it to the membership and let us carry the obligations that go with it.
Isn't it a shame that what would really work (buddy box, etc..) is never going to happen, why is that?
When I first flew my turbine, I had NO EXPERIENCE what would happen next.oh yeah I know how to fly and all that but you really don't know something till you've tried it and so why would you not want to give some REAL flight experience to a guy before he solo's? That alone would be the best help to new turbine pilots, IMHO!