I've decided to get a Ducted Fan jet, but I have no idea where to start. I've spent countless hours on the internet, looking at jet kits, plan, engines, and other essentials. Now I find myself overwhelmed with the whole concept.

Heres my delima: I fly at 5973' above sea level.

I am not willing to spend the money to purchase one of the large fan jets that require a single or twin .91 sized engine for a fisrt project. I am going to have to get one of the kits for a .46 or smaller jet.

Many of the kits that I have seen all appear VERY heavy. DF jets are usually only marginally powered to start with. You throw in 5973' above sea level, and I'm looking at a potential of not even being able to get one off the ground.

So far I have looked at all the major sites that are jet oriented. Very few even offer a kit in the .46 size. Bob Parkinson offers an F-86 Sabre that will fly on this engine, but it doesn't have retracts. Other than that issue, I would buy it.

What I REALLY want is an A-10 Warthog. Combat Models offers one in an electric version, but I want a glow powered jet. Electric is completely out of the question for me. I like horsepower and castor oil.

I've searched endlessly for plans for an A-10. And I've come up empty handed. There was a post here on RCUniverse about plans for one, but after checking it out, I've decided that it won't work for me. Too small.

I've read things about guys putting .21 sized car engines in DF jets with reasonable success. I would like to hear opinions about this from others with such experience.

I've really got a huge problem with being able to get enough power in light enough airframe up here at this altitude.

I found out that ROSSI makes a .53 DF engine. This lifted my spirits a little. Seems to me that an engine of that size would produce enough power up here to get a bird off the ground nicely, and still fly well enough that it wouldn;t fall on its' face every time I wanted to do a loop.

I'm looking for any and all opinions here. Thanks

Hey there. I believe that george miller used to plan a a-10, and is now offered by iron bay in kit form, or aka craig aviation. I was going to buy a jet kit from john craig at craig aviation and he was so kind, His prices arent too shabby either. I believe the a-10 is in the vecinity of 500.00 for the kit. It is a twin .46 powered and has a 70-some inch wingspan. Also i would recommend jet hangar hobbies for .46 size jets, but i have heard that these aircraft req alot of building (cutting hatches), but once you have them done they are really nice. If you are looking at GREAT jets, i would recommend yellow aircraft and their f-18 hornet single. I am currently building one that i bought from shaun evans (YELLOWAIRCRAFT SCREENNAME). The kit is great, the instructions are awesome, and it shall fly very nice, i have seen many. I would recommend staying away from .46 jets, only for the fact that once you buy the engine, fan and pipe, that is it, pretty much they are non transferable, because not many kits are made for these size units anymore. That is just my input, hope it helps.

Check with some of the Colorado jet guys like Mike Weidner or Ivan Munninghoff to see what they recommend. I believe they have had a lot of success with Top Gun F-15s.

I definitely agree that unless your plan is to stay in the small jets, don't invest 85% of the cost of a .91/fan combo into a smaller setup. The O.S. .46 is about $10-$30 cheaper than the O.S. .91, and the same is true for the Turbax v. Dynamax setups. If you're concerned about high-altitude performance, then I would definitely steer more toward the .91. Ther are lots of kits out there that would have no problem flying at the altitudes you're talking about. Someone mentioned the TGA F-15s, and they would certainly fly without problems at your altitude. If you're considering those, I'd go with the tractor version for sure.

Yellow Aircraft has some great airplanes and at hard-to-beat prices, too. If you have any questions about those, give me an email.

HORNET1788,

How are you? Haven't heard from you since you bought the kit. Have you started it? How's it coming? Did you ever decide which way you were going to go with the wings? Let me know. Thanks for the good word, too! Say Hi to your Mom for me (that was your Mom I talked to, right?).

Good luck, and welcome to jets!

RCPilet,

I'd suggest contacting Larry at Jet Hangar. [email protected] Most of their jets were designed around the .40 sized DF engines. The airplanes build light and fly great! Also, if you're concerned about altitude, consider this...at the Denver Jet Rally, Larry was flying the new ARF Hawk with a Turbax 48 and from what I heard, it was Haulin! Went well enough to win the "Best Ducted Fan Performance" award.

Also, if you're looking for a plan of the A-10, JHH has one available that is really nice...extremely accurate too.

Chris

During my last visit to LA, I gave Larry a visit. I saw his Bae Hawk and it looks good. I think this would be a great DF jet for the size your looking at.

I sent an e-mail to Larry at jet Hanger.

I was really leaning towards the A-10. I just like that bird a lot. But, if I could get an ARF Hawk, I might just consider it. Slapping an ARF together would take a lot of the pain out of the project; especially if I crashed it after only a few flights.

So, how about those car and buggy engines? Anyone got any experience with putting one of them in a DF jet?

I found a fan manufacturer called Hurricane. They claim to make a fan with adjustable pitch and removable blades. Allowing you to customize the fan for your particular thrust and speed needs. Anyone ever heard of this manufacturer? Ever used one of their fans?

Thanks

Hey shaun, yes i have started the kit. I have been taking my time with it for a few reasons. One the USAF is taking up most of my time working on these broke a@# jets all the time. Second i am also working on a scale cessna skylane 1.5 scale. I like that alot too! And third, the budget only allows for a piece here a piece there. I have everything for it except some digi servos, (going w/the new hitecs), and an OS91 and jmp pipe. I tell you what, i really wish i had just gone with an mw54 kit for turbine. While building the kit, i have added carbon fibre in all the formers to make it like concrete. Oh and about the wings, i decided to go with flaps and ilerons, and make them detchable. I want to set the ailerons up to act as flaperons in landiing though, kinda like scale. Also, that was my mom, and shes doing great, thanks. Well take care, Oh are you going to the az jet rally, i am and that is when i am planning on a maiden flight, would love to have you fly it. Nick

I haven't monitoried this forum in a while, but saw your post on entry level jets and wanted to give you some thoughts.

I see you are in Denver. Did you attend the Denver Jet Rally a couple weekends ago? If so, we were there with our Hawk ARF and a Turbax 48 system. A friend from Omaha also had our Sabre Jet with an OS .46VX-Df/Turbax system and both airplanes flew very well at that altitude. This has been our experience over the years we have been to Denver: At higher altitudes, lighter wing loading is your friend! The .45-.48 size airplanes take off in about 350', while most of the .91 powered ducted fans take a considerably longer distance. My Hawk flew at about 140-150 mph top speed up there, which is about the same as its performance here at sea level. The Sabre got off in less distance (about 300').

Either the Sabre or the Hawk would be excellent choices for a first jet at a minimum expense. Full packages are also available.

Best regards,
Larry Wolfe
[email protected]

I just spent 2K on a .46 size jet.

R.A.F.
It is possible to convey your experiences without bashing. It's all in how you say it. Inquiring minds want to know!!!

I did not make it to the jet rally in Denver this year. I did see a few pictures that a guy from work brought in for viewing.

I sent emails to [email protected] and also [email protected]

Maybe larry from Jhh can help me find an A-10. I'll have to wait and see what he says after getting my e-mail.

By the way, I can't figure out how to update my profile here at rcuniverse. My email is [email protected]

Thanks for the responses.

go to the top of the page, click on MY RCU and then click on edit profile, easy.

You forgot to mention that a .91-sized setup will have to carry twice as much fuel because it has twice the rate of fuel consumption. So, he'll need bigger gas tanks and a place to put them.

At a minimum, a model with a .91-sized power package (engine/fan/pipe) will be 2 Lbs. heavier than the same model running a .46-sized setup. This makes for a heavier model with the higher resultant stall speeds.

Even though you're running an engine that's twice the displacement and has twice the fuel consumption and weighs almost twice as much, you won't get twice the thrust out of it.

Running a .91-sized model has it's advantages, but it also has it's disadvantages. To be fair, both should be mentioned.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Dan

Dan,

In general, larger model airplanes tend to fly better than smaller ones. Also, a new jet modeler (especially one who's budget conscious) would be well advised to know that there are far fewer offerings in the .45-sized fan arena than the .91 sized. It makes a difference if a guy doesn't want to have to buy a new propulsion system later when he decides he wants a larger model.

In my experience, I've noticed at least as many .45-sized jets powered with larger engine/fan combos as those with the stock setups. I guess those people wanted more performance than they were getting out of the .45/Turbax setups. Indeed, they now have the .48/Turbax setups offered, with the rallying call being that they outperform the .45s. This seems a fair indication that most of these .45-sized jets could use more power?

Nobody suggested putting a .91 in a .45-sized model. You're correct that it would only result in a heavier model with a higher wing-loading and degraded low speed performance. I suggested putting a .91 in a .91-sized airplane. In this case, your concerns about fuel placement, wing-loading and performance wouldn't really be an issue. For example, a DF-powered Starfire on an O.S. .91 has a lighter wing loading than the K&B .45-powered Sabre, with considerably less takeoff distance required, and nearly twice the speed at full throttle (radar-speed). If you bumped the smaller jet up to the .48-sized setup, the go-fly prices of the two are within $100 of each other. So if the price is the same, it seems that the larger plane would be a better investment for the new jetter since he's going to have a lot more choices for his second and third jet without having to upgrade his power system.

I still enjoy flying the smaller jets. I've built several of the small A-4s by Yellow Aircraft, and even a few JHH 45-sized jets. They fly great, but the bigger jets fly better. Also, there are availability issues with the smaller setups, but you'll probably always be able to put your hands on an O.S. .91. Anyway, the gentleman who started this thread stated that he's not willing to 'spend the money' to get a .91-sized jet. If he's only getting into the small jets to save money, he might appreciate knowing that he doesn't have to.

Very good advice so far. From everyone.

In regards to the price issue: I really only wanted to begin with a smaller jet because, I'm not sure if I'll like them. I don't want to get a whole lot of money wrapped up in a .91 sized jet, only to find out that my nerves can't handle the complexities or speed of a jet.

I think I'll stick with the small one for now, and then move up to the larger one later, if the bug bites me hard enough.

I'm a little bit conservative , by nature. I soloed on an LT-40 and didn't get a new plane untill I had it converted to a taildragger with a huge motor. Next plane was a Kadet SR. :Basically a big LT-40. Then I went to a Stick; which is an LT-40 with a Semi-symetrical wing. Then, I went to the low wing taildraggers. And finally, after 3 years of flying, I have broken into the "full tilt boogey" aerobatic planes. Currently fling a Sig Cap 231 Breitling. And have a crashed Laser 200 on the table. Opps!!

So, you see, I usually take my time. I don't try to tackle anything too big or complicated; too soon. I am content to try the ducted fan jets out with the smaller sized engines and planes. Granted, they may only be a few hundred bucks cheaper than the .91 sized planes, but $200 is still $200.

I'll get my feet wet and I have no doubt that I'll be moving up to the .91 sized jets in a year or two. I like things that go fast.

Thanks

Well rcpilet. I was, this time last year looking into jets for the first time. So i understand and remember what it was like. I am also on a tight budget or else i would have had my f-18 in the air by now. But i can say this. There is REALLY not that big of a difference in price between 46-91 size jets. Look at the jet hangar f-86. It is like 500 bucks for the kit. Well a starfire from yellow, is i think a lil less, might be the same, but that starfire has a mutch broader flight nvelope, you should see one fly. Sure it takes a .91, but if you cannot take the speed, slow it down. Just because it is a jet does not mean you have to do 200 mph. Take it easy for awhile, and maybe fly with the flaps down until you can get to think about your next move before its time to. Let me say that from as much as i have read, and seen. If you cannot start with something like a starfire (with a large wing area), then maybe jets are not going to be your cup o tea. I think anyone that has good reflexes(and a radio with dual rates) ;-) can fly a jet. Well hope that helps. Nick

I've found that my little EDF SU-27 flies every bit as well as some of the larger jets I've flown. It certainly has better handling characteristics than my Yellow Aircraft A-4. Of course, it's possible that your definition of flying well might be different than mine.

Leaving out Jet Hangar Hobbies and Yellow Aircraft, isn't it true that there are fewer DF models being made, period?

Everyone upgrades their power system. This phenomenon isn't limited to the .45-sized world. Didn't the .91 outperform the .77? Didn't the .77 outperform the .65?

A .91-sized model will still be heavier than a .45-sized model and will still consume twice as much fuel.

The fact that the .91-sized model may be faster only means that the servos will have to be upgraded to handle the higher flight loads or the new jet pilot risks losing his considerable investment to a failed or overloaded servo. This means buying more expensive servos and a higher-quality battery pack.

A larger jet may also require retracts that are more robust than a smaller jet and in some cases will also need shock-absorbing struts.

There's more to the cost of the model than the kit and power system. To be fair, if you're going to list the advantages, you have to mention the disadvantages. Otherwise it just reads like ad copy.

I would like to ask one question, though.

Is the Yellow Aircraft A-4 a .91-sized jet or is it a .45-sized jet that has a .91 stuffed into it?

Dan

d/f first? I ve found the best at this alt. is the balsa usa enforcer is the best sport jet. no bad habits, easy to step into, low cost to get started, and builds exp. quickly.

next top gun f-15... byron fan is easer than the pro version but we are flying both at our feild. had a byron f16/a4/f15/ and now 2 enforcers that call our feild home.
want personal attention?? let me know???


brian
denver r/c eagles Vice President
(cherry creek state park 5500')
denverrceagles.freeyellow.com/

I agree with Dan Savage. It's not just the engine and kit that cost a little more with the larger fan jets; its EVERYTHING.

The servos will have to be of higher quality, the landing gear, the hinges, the fuselage will have to be reinforced, the fuel system will probably be more expensive and complicated.

So, the .45 sized jets are going to be considerably cheaper when you get done with the whole project. Thats' why I wanted to try the smaller one first. If I decide that I don't like jets, I won't have a small fortune tied up in one.

I'm willing to spend in the neighborhood of $1000-$1500 for a jet. If anyone out there thinks I can get into a .91 sized jet for that amount, I'll investigate that avenue. My "jaw drop" impression is that I would be hard pressed to get into a .91 sized jet for that amount. Maybe I'm wrong. Afterall, I don't know diddley squat about these beasts.

With kits starting in the $500 range, and engines in the $300-$500 range, it starts to add up rather quickly. Then you need gear and paint, hardware, servos, and other radio equipment. It's not looking to good for the .91 sized jet. My wife has me on a pretty tight budget.

So, what about the car and buggy engines? Anyone?

Larry from JHH sent me a quick e-mail and will sell me the plans for an A-10 with a 70" wingspan. That's right up my alley. Exactly what I wanted. I'm saving my pennies for the two Rossi .53 engines.

Thanks Larry.

Dan,

I'm not sure which comment/question to address first...

"Leaving out Jet Hangar Hobbies and Yellow Aircraft, isn't it true that there are fewer DF models being made, period?"

Well, I suppose that may be true, but that's a little outside the scope of the original discussion, isn't it? My comment was addressing the number of .45 sized offerings as compared to the number of .91-sized offerings. You could say, in response to a discussion on whether or not it's hotter in El Cajon than in Mission Beach, "Leaving out El Cajon and Mission Beach, isn't it true that the whole planet is getting warmer, period?"

"Everyone upgrades their power system....Didn't the .91 outperform the .77? Didn't the .77 outperform the .65?"

Well, again, I think we're talking about two different things. If a guy has a .45/Turbax setup, he simply can't fly it in the scores of offerings there are for .65-.91/Dynamax setups. If a guy has an O.S. .77/Dynamax, he can fly it in a JHH Phantom. Or a Yellow Starfire. Or a TGA F-15. Or a Trim Spectre. Or a Renegade. Or a CJM F-105. See where I'm going with this? Now if that same individual wants to see if he can get a little more performance, he might go for the .91, but he doesn't HAVE to. And, no, I haven't ever upgraded any of my .91s.

"A .91-sized model will still be heavier than a .45-sized model..."

Well, I'm not sure what your point was there, but my 1/4 scale Cub is heavier than my Yellow A-4, so...

"To be fair, if you're going to list the advantages, you have to mention the disadvantages..."

Fair to whom? My goal wasn't to be 'fair', it was to point out to a newcomer (who said he was considering the smaller jets because of COST) that there isn't much difference in cost. It was to state my opinion (not ad copy) that a newcomer should consider what his second or third jet might be, and whether or not he wants to invest in a whole new power system to fly them (if they're not also .45-sized jets.) I'm sure if I wanted to, I could come up with a whole list of disadvantages to larger jets, jets, or airplanes in general, but I don't think it would have been helpful to the discussion. We were talking about tight budgets, and good jet investments for the beginner.

The JHH Sabre is a great flying jet. The BVM Sabre is, in my opinion, a better flying jet, (owing, in no small part, to its larger size). Perhaps you think that smaller jets fly better than bigger ones (and you're certainly entitled to that opinion), but I think it's pretty commonly accepted that 'the bigger the better' as far as flight performance is concerned. That doesn't mean that there aren't some awesome small jets out there. I happen to own a few that I think are really cool, myself.

Lastly, to answer your question regarding the A-4: I'm not really sure. I wouldn't say that the .91 is STUFFED in, because it fits just fine. I think that Yellow might have originally intended the A-4 for .45 power, but after seeing the flight performance of the existing A-4s on the market (of the same size), flying on the smaller power systems, Yellow thought it best to make theirs for larger engines.

As far as your Su-27 goes, you're absolutely right, it flies superbly. I was very impressed with it at BITW.

By the way, there are several .91-sized (better flying) jet kits out there that can be put in the sky (less Rx and Tx) for $1500.

Shaun, i am totally with you on everything you said. I firmly believe that if the yellowf-18 i am building were to not have the semi scale struts wheels and tires, that i could out it in the air for less than 1500. I am right around there now, exluding the engine. Bigger is better, in any form of aircraft. You dont see nick ziroli making .60 size warbirds for scale events right? Nick

RcPilet,

Good luck on your A10!

I just wanted to throw out that there are other .45 sized jets still being produced around the world. JD has a sport-scale F15, Jetmart's Mig 15, Thorpe Hawk, Fox Viggen (yes it will fly with a .45) and the list goes on. People pick up my JHH F-86 and ask if the engine is in it. I very much doubt there is a Starfire with a lighter wing loading.

Good luck with whatever you choose. Build light and all of these planes will serve you well.

Mark M.

well then enforcer is 90, .90 size used byron setups..150-200 on ebay(more than enough power), any type retracts (mech on mine, air on the guys i help set up) stantard servos. monocote covered and about 8lbs.......under $500 and 120-130 mph speeds at this alt.

if you want to save money on a "scale" set up, be patient, buy kits off ebay, autions, etc.
don't buy rtf, buy kits so you dont get someone's elses mistakes.
(these planes don't put up with flaws to well)

i can be done.

a tga pro f15 $680 just for the kit!
bought one off a guy geting out of the hobby,
kit(unstarted), air retracts, rossi 105/ pipe..............$250!!!


if I didnt stumble on it i wouldn't have it !

Also had a freind buy a Byron f-16/ fan/.65(to small for alt) at longmont for $ 250.00.
that was his Jet trainer and lasted 2yrs and is getting heavt from repair (his and previous). thats a deal too.

If you build the a-10( and if you do i would like to see it too, my favorite, but dont want the "dean lasik" giant) build it and buy the Turbax/engines off ebay. those fan/engines aren't that popular and tend not to go over $200 for both. and considering an endine is what 280 alone?

if you want into jets its possible,
like IMAC you don't have to have a $8000 ,100" edge to fly or even compete!!!!

there are options!

Brian

Geezz Dan! everybody knows bigger airplanes do fly better. You'd think that after reading your argument that the manufacturing trend would be more toward smaller and smaller jets, but, [reality check], it's not. They're getting bigger... Why do you nitpick every little thing yellowaircraft says? I think someone already established that you're no lawyer.

McCleod, where are you located? What club do you fly with? What's your name? I'm very interested in which campanies you wish you knew about before you started. Oh yeah, and why does your e-mail address start with "Jethangar"?