A10FLYR

My Feedback: (1)

Take a break but please don't give up!!

I_Fly_Coolers

My Feedback: (7)

Sorry to see this....

I've been following your build for, what, 2 years ?? []

My advice- fix it. Maybe build a new wing, or, see if you can do some surgery on what you have. It doesn't have to be pretty- just get it fixed enough for flight.

You need to get back on the horse !!

Take a break and relax for a while.

You may want to consider going electric; that will help your engine woes but it is not necessarily "easy" to figure out the right power system for this one.

Another point that nobody brought up- I noticed you lost one/both engines, and it looks like you almost had it saved- but you mentioned "full flaps"

"full flaps" without engine power/throttle is a recipe for disaster... If you're dead stick, leave the flaps up, keep the nose down, glide it in. From the video I think the flaps killed your airspeed and it lost lift about 10 feet up before touchdown.

Just remember- No power= no flaps

I know it's easy to sit here and say it having lots of time to make a decision, but being behind the sticks and trying to do it is a lot harder. I'm just making suggestions in the hopes that it will help in the future.

Also, I don't know if you had the retracts working.. What I do, in an emergency...If I think the plane is too far away or I'm too scared to maintain control of the landing 100%, I leave the wheels up and belly land, preferably in grass. Usually the damage is only cosmetic; with the gear down on an uncontrolled landing, they are most likely to rip out and cause much more damage. Recently I had a dead stick on my (electric !!) F-86 (.90 size) I was just passing center field on my way out when the motor cooked. I choose to leave the gear up because the plane was too far away to make a controlled touchdown...I belly landed in the grass about 500 feet away with no damage. Had the gear been down they would have been ripped out.

Anyways, thanks for the video...

Now you have me scared for my 115" A-10 maiden

pdmarsh

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the encouragement. Seriously.

The wheels are already turning in my head. I haven't taken a close look at everything yet, but I think I'll have a set of foam cores cut for a new wing. All of the hard points survived as did the wing tips. The gear seems fine, but it will need close inspection. The fuselage will take some fixing. The nose gear did some serious damage up front, but probably nothing that can't be fixed.

I've worked with foam cores once before, but nothing like this. If anybody can point me in the right direction to get some ideas on spars, landing gear cutouts and supports, etc., please let me know. When the time comes, I'll do some digging myself. Maybe it's a matter of duplicating everything but the ribs from the original plans.

In the meantime, I need to turn the clock back and learn more about ducted fans. EDF is a possibility, but I'm challenged now with these d_ _n engines, and EDF will have to get a lot more affordable at this scale. Very early on when I first started looking into this project I came across the Sunspot (see photo). It's based on the Balsa USA Force One, which runs about $69. The conversion plans are about $9. I think I'll build one and fly both engines on it (one at a time, of course).

Coolers, you mentioned following my build for two years (thanks, by the way). Here's a short timeline (no pun intended):

Plans purchased in May of 2003
Parts laser cut in July of 2003
Rest of wood bought in Feb. of 2005 (job changes, etc. put things on hold)
Between '03 & '05 built missiles (was working in Atlanta, but lived in Florida; only had room to work on the missiles; however, the A-10 plans were taped to my rented room walls so I could study them)
Main build started in Feb. of 2005
Entire build all but complete in Nov. of 2006 (21 months)
Project sat until Dec. of 2007 when I could buy the engines
Maiden flight - Aug. of 2008
Rebuild begins in head - Aug. of 2008
Rebuild begins for real...

Thanks,
Paul

P.S. Coolers, I certainly don't want to make you nervous about your A-10 (photos please). I've heard from a lot of people building the Miller A-10, and might have even encouraged a few to start. I am a little upset that my mishap might discourage them. But maybe they'll be more cautious, now, too. There's little question that this was pilot error; mainly I needed to know more about the engines and I botched the landing.

FOShowNoClass

My Feedback: (7)

Paul,

I've been following the build from your first post years and years ago. It's a heartbreaker, but as several others have said, it looks like you can fix it. At least I hope you do! I am ready to follow the build for another few years if that's what it takes you! Give it a break, get the cores cut, and get on with it! Good luck!

Will

pdmarsh

I think that's pretty much the plan now. Thanks Will. And thanks for following the build.

Paul

A10FLYR

My Feedback: (1)

None of us thought to congratulate you for taking the project thru to completion....

You deserve many Kudos for that! Don't wait to long to rebuild it. The building process is still fresh in your mind so it will be easier to do the rebuild this winter! I'd do a quick repair job now and do the foam wing later.

You can doeeettt!!!

grbaker

My Feedback: (29)

Dean's right. Congratulations on completing this build and then having the guts to risk it in flight. Not many builders left in these ARF times.

And thanks for sharing it with us.

Strykaas

Sad but true here too.

pdmarsh

Thanks again guys. I'll take a serious look at things this weekend. Maybe I can coble it back together for now. We'll see.

Regarding building, there's no question that the state of the hobby today, meaning ARF's, electrics, park flyers, etc. has brought a lot more people in to it, and there's nothing wrong with that. I went the ARF route to get my son going and to get myself back in the air after I lost a plane. I do think, though, that a lot of people are missing a side of the hobby they might otherwise enjoy. I don't know that there's anything that can be done about that. I guess people just have to discover it themselves.

Strykass, I was searching the web for the Balsa USA Force One kit (see my post above re. a ducted fan conversion) and came across your CAD designs for modified versions of the Force One. Did you ever build one or more of those designs? Pretty neat stuff.

Link to his Force One thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_76..._1/key_/tm.htm

Paul

I_Fly_Coolers

My Feedback: (7)

Yes, thanks for taking the time to post the build thread and the video.. And the fact you completed such a complicated project gets two thumbs up in my book !!

Some of my crashes, that looked real bad, well, I got some CA and accelerator..went outside (for the fumes) and started piecing things back together best I could, and you know what, in about 30 minutes the plane looked so much better, and that motivated me to finish the repairs. Give it a try. Too bad I'm not closer to you, but, I would cut back the wing sheeting to expose the damaged pieces, start "surgery" by splicing in new stringers, or ribs, etc to the existing parts- sometimes I'll glue a new piece against a damaged one and leave it at that, you'll add a little weight, but not enough to worry about. Just get it fixed enough to fly. Worry about cosmetics later.

Anyways, Here are some A-1o build threads that may help you, or at least get you motivated !!

Stig's Dean Lassek A-10 build, lots of good pics with foam wing construction:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3147152/tm.htm


My (electric) Lassek A-10 (just today started my first foam wing build):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=874931


A-10 ARF thread (electric .40 size) with pics and video :

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548870

AND:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612820

pdmarsh

Coolers, Thanks for the great links. Your A-10's (plural, I'm jealous) look very nice indeed. Can't wait to hear about your maiden flight with the big bird. I also appreciate your comments about crashes and actual damage; pretty much right on. So, here we go...

Damage Assessment

It seems my initial reaction of doom and gloom might have been a bit premature. I picked through the pieces this weekend and found that a whole lot more of this plane survived than what didn't. I believe I can fix both the fuselage and the wing. I'll have to cut out a panel from the bottom of the fuse to rebuild the nosewheel mount (shown removed below) from the bottom up. The cockpit came loose, but I think I can reposition it without having to remove it first. Only two formers need repairs.

The wing will take some work, but I should be able to save it. One flap will have to be rebuilt and, as you said Coolers, I'll have to make new spars to reattach the separated sections. I'll need to rebuild the main gear mounts on both sides. On the "good" side of the wing, this means having to cut away some of the pod, to be reattached later.

So, "good eyes" to those who said it looked fixable.

I actually do have a fleet of A-10's myself. Photo below.

Thanks,
Paul

grbaker

My Feedback: (29)

That's great news, Paul! Keep us posted.

One of these days I'll have to build a Hog but it will probably be electric.

lupus49

I saw the Warthog first time in the northern Norway in the nineteeneighties. With a terrible roar it flew towards a mountain. It will crash, I thought, but suddenly in a split second it went straight upwards. Could hardly believe my eyes. Now I am 59 and have some time to start up building again. I have checked the George Miller plans at http://www.scalercmodels.com/rcplans.html#2 and the laser cut parts at http://www.precisioncutkits.com/instock.html. The Miller plans say that wingspan is 78" but the precisioncutkits say that wingspan made from Beaulieu/Miller plans is 75". I have mailed to precisioncutkits about this but have not yet got an answer. Do you or anyone know about this?
Best regards Rolv B

pdmarsh

Hi Rolv,

I suspect that the 75" reference on Precision Cut Kits website is a typographical error. The wingspan is actually 78" as stated on the plans. Just to be sure, I measured the plans again before responding. Let us know if you start your build.

Paul

cgrcjet

Hello Paul
I to have been following your build for quite some time now and did not know about your flight until now. That makes me sad. You may remember me asking you to email me some pics of the wing profiles of your A10. Well, unless you had quite a few people asking about that. I also asked about making some inlets and wheelwells for you. Anyways i guess it has probably been a few years now. Sorry to hear about your plane. I know your determination is just as bad as mine for this plane, so im sure you will be up and running soon enough. Im pretty sure i told you about the molds i was making for my warthog. I just finished the last molds about a month ago after almost 2 long years of designing and redesigning and trying to make it as scale as i can. This plane will be the death of me, if my wife doesnt kill me first. I cannot stop drewling over it day and night of what i could do next to make it better. And it does not help trying to be a perfectionist. Pretty sad. Damn plane has me by the balls. Should have never bought that revelle model when i was seven. I knew i loved the plane but didnt know it would lead me to this. Anyways, now that i got that out, i would be interested in cutting out some foam wing cores for you on my cnc hot wire machine. Free. I believe i still have those wing profiles that you emailed me but it would be better if you were able to trace them and mail them to me or scan them and email them to me with chord dimensions. I could also cnc router you some ply half ribs for the retracts. Or, i am also looking for some beta testers for my plane. I believe i told you i wanted to give you one of these so i could get some feedback. It would not take you as long to build. I have made many many parts trying to get my layup schedules dialed in. I finally have my flying version almost ready for its first flight and it has taken me about a month. Thats actually from producing parts and designing carbon fiber control horns, vacuum formed gear door detail molds, finishing foam cores and control
surfaces, designing rudder servo plate , and fuse formers for nose gear etc. So what i am saying is that i have still been designing while doing the build. And designing some parts that dont even matter at the moment. Wasting my time making scale detail when i could be flying. So it would probably have taken me 2 weeks if it was not me building it. Just let me know if you would like to do this. The warthog is pretty much the same scale as the george miller and weighs in at about 18 pounds. I will be doing my maiden with John from rc direct at the L.A. jets field hopefully within a month. Heres a few pics.

chris

pdmarsh

Hi Chris,

Not to worry. I remember you well. In fact, I was going to try to get in touch with you recently to find out how your project was coming along. I do hear from a lot of people about the A-10; mostly from my web site, which parallels this thread, but also from RCU. More often than not, these folks are wanting to go EDF. I think of you and your composite build every time. Since I hadn't heard from you in a while, I was afraid that your project had stalled. Obviously, it hasn't.

Your work is fantastic. If you do decide to kit this plane, I don't think you'll have much trouble finding buyers. I'll e-mail you offline regarding your generous offers. However, I have a feeling you've opened up the floodgates. You'll have more offers of beta testers than you ever imagined. Don't be surprised if a few checks come in the mail as down payment on future kits. I've never understood why this size A-10 hasn't been available when you consider the fact that the Mibo Jets 1/6th scale model is on it's 3rd (or 4th?) generation design. If there's a market for that scale, why not 1/9th? I've toyed with the idea of somehow kitting it, but you've left me in the dust I'm afraid.

Paul

pdmarsh

Mark,

Mr. Miller sent a copy of his video catalog and allowed me to digitize and upload it. I broke it down into segments, which can be viewed either on Google Video directly or on my web page below. I'm one of the lucky ones who signed up on Google Video before they bought YouTube, and when video size was almost unlimited. For now, I'm grandfathered in. I think YouTube and Google Video both limit new users to 10 minutes per file. This video catalog runs almost 3 hours in its entirety, and a few of the segments are over 30 minutes long each. It is interesting to watch.

Thanks again for letting us know about this video and for posting the clip.

Link to all clips: http://miller-a10.home.mchsi.com/videocatalog.html

Paul

lupus49

You were right Paul. Larry at Precision Cut Kits wrote: "Sorry about that....it is 78 in. It was just a typo.
Larry"
So now I have the plans, the cockpit set and canopy from Scalermodels.com. Precisioncutkits can send the A10 kit for USD425 and shipping USD90. Unfortunately the dollar is stronger now for some strange reason compared to norwegian currency. but I am tempted Time will show.
Regards Rolv

Gry101

My Feedback: (8)

Paul,

Way to go on actually getting your bird in the air. I am still struggling with mine. Sorry for the end of the first flight though. Looked great in the air. I am about ready to pull out the pumps and go pressure from the pipes too. The plane looks fixable from my novice kit builder eyes. The A-10 that Precision Cut Kits has are the one from my order through them so it is the right one. They digitized the plans. I hope that you get back on the horse.

Andrew

Lance Campbell

I had a ducted fan twin, many moons ago, and I would have remote mixture controls on the engines. I'd put the dials for the 2 mixtures on the transmitter, such that when turned all the way lean, it would not kill the engines. I'd tune them on the ground for this max lean setting, to be used for take-off. Then, my spotter would reach over on the first downwind, and richen them both. I'd tune this on the ground one engine at a time, such that the rich, flight setting, would be very rich, and matched with each other. It might vary per engine. For example, take off, both dial cranked over far right, say the 5 o'clock position. Then on the downwind, left engine get's turned left to the 12 o'clock position and the right engine the 1 o'clock position (as an example). When they would be close, there is a definite sync sound. That fall's off, then something is up. I'd 10 times much rather have 2 running engines, than squeze that last pound of thrust out, and risk a failure. The dead engine's non turning fan blade might be more of an air brake than you might think, which leads into landing woes.

Nice looking plane, and good luck, if you decide to patch it back up. Looked good when up to speed and running solid.

Lance

pdmarsh

Hi Andrew,

It's good to hear from you. I know you were close to your own maiden flight, then... nothing. I feared the worst. I'm glad to see you're still taking it slow. You can learn from my mistakes.

I think you'll have more luck with a simpler fuel installation. It seemed to help me, at least in the short run. I'm building that modified Balsa USA Force One right now. Maybe I'll experiment with the pumps one engine at a time after I get that up and flying. In any case, once I'm comfortable that I can keep each engine running from take off to landing, only then will I fly the A-10 again.

Paul

Gry101

My Feedback: (8)

Paul,

No, I would have shared every second of the first flight if I had one, even if it never had a first landing as I have seen happen a few times. I will get the video posted when I actually do make it into the air. BTW, I will be in the Twin Cities for Thanksgiving visiting my Grandpa. Too bad I could not bring my A-10 along so we could work on it and get it going,

Andrew

pdmarsh

Well, it's not an A-10, but it does qualify as being part of my A-10 project. I have checked myself into ducted fan rehab and am taking DF 101. This is my build of the Sunspot which I mentioned in a previous post. It's a conversion of the Balsa USA Force One, changing it from pusher prop to ducted fan. I'll use this to get the experience I obviously need running ducted fan engines. Once this build is done, I'll get back to the A-10 rebuild itself.

As far as the Sunspot goes, renamed the A-9½ Piglet (sorry, couldn't resist), it's a very straight forward build. The pictures pretty much speak for themselves.

Paul

FLYPUCK

My Feedback: (8)

Glad to see your back in the saddle Paul. Cool plane to put your fan to use in.
Sorry I haven't shipped your stuff back yet. Been busy. I'll get it out next week.
I'll be keeping an eye on your progress.

Doug

pdmarsh

Progress photos and a few comments on my ducted fan trainer.

I wasn't real happy with the engine, fan and gas tank all hanging out in the open on the Sunspot, so I decided to make a nacelle to house everything. If it looks really funny when it's all said and done, I won't use it, but it is coming along nicely! The modified Force One requires all new fins and elevons, so those were made from scratch; not a big deal except that I forgot to buy trailing edge stock for the elevons. I used a sanding disc on my table saw to shape them. I also used the sanding disc to put the proper angle on the fin rails and fin bottom edges.

In keeping with the Sunspot theme, I stayed with transparent covering over the wing area, but went with red instead of yellow. In keeping with the A-10 theme, I went with gray for the rest instead of white.

Paul