FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

I lke this topic so I ask you guys,

If you fly 5 airplanes, what will a 10sx do that an 8103 will not do?
....besides the high tech look?

I personally don't like a radio to tell me how to fly, screw that!

Gazzer

Johnmac,

I did indeed mean the JR Graupner range.

Sorry for any confusion, cuts my argument a bit. Doh!!

Now they (Multiplex) are part of the Hitec group I suspect the world may get to enjoy european innovation and technical leading along with Japanese style production and marketing.

Are there American made systems in use these days, I am sure I remember excellent systems made by Kraft in the past?

The english manufacturers did not fare too well, MacGregor resorting to (and probably a very wise move) reselling of JR, Skyleader, no idea what happened to them, and more recently the eventual demise of Digifleet.

Hitec are an innovative company and I doubt they just bought Multiplex for the user base alone, but it should not be too long before ET can enjoy the intriguing capabilities of such innovative systems.

Or will it just be those boys from over the pond making trouble again?!!!!![>:]

Gazzer

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

If that were true, then given that the programming changes are made at the windows GUI, none of the changes would ever take effect !

Well, here's my take on it, based on many years of writing comm's code.

Regardless of whether they run Windows on one processor and some proprietary OS on the other, the two MUST interact in one way or another in order for your programming changes to take effect.

Let's say you program in a servo reverse command via the Windows GUI ... do you want the servo to actually reverse, or do you just want the GUI to mistakenly say that the reversal has been done ? If the latter, then you just wasted your time and also your money buying a GUI that does nothing ; if the former, then the GUI must communicate a change of configuration data to the processor which is responsible for generating the data frames that are to be transmitted. In other words, the data frames that are generated by the non-Windows component are based on data provided to it by the Windows component. Regardless of whether that data is provided by message passing, by shared memory zones with mutex's, or whatever, the fact that one process' output data forms the other's input data means that a malfuntion in one process can trigger unwanted effects in the second process.

Unless Futaba has implemented a moded approach in which you can totally divorce the two - e.g. having 2 modes such as (1) programming, but with no RF output and (2) RF output but no programming, that means that a malfunction in the Windows side while you are flying could translate into a fairly undesirable outcome. Now, the same ability for a UI interface malfunction to affect the RX output does of course exist in prior computer radios which utilize proprietary code for their UI without a moded approach - so the only difference really is whether one considers the proprietary OS to be more or less error prone than Windows, and the answer to that is a very subjective one.

See http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=2529697 for some of the prior discussions on this topic.

Gordon

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

David, stick with the 8103 if for any other reason that most 8103's these days have digital trims. You don't need a 10 channel radio until you are in far more complicated airplanes than what you've got going.

I own 2 10x's and 2 8103's. They are excellent radios, but I prefer the 8103 over the 10x for only one reason, it is lighter and smaller and fits my small hands better. If someone would come out with a 10 channel or even a 9 channel radio that was the same size or smaller than an 8103, I would buy it. I don't even care which brand as long as it was at least as feature rich as the 10 x.

One function that makes the 10x better than others in my opinion is the servo slow function. I have not seen another radio do that yet. Maybe the futabs do it, I've just never seen it.

Sean

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

It's been a whlie since I played with this, so appologies if I got it wrong, but IIRC, the Futaba's actually do it better than JR - having independent servo slow rates for each travel direction rather than just one speed for both.

Spartan Missile

Gordon,

My JR PCM9X allows different servo speed for each direction, eg slow flaps down, fast flaps up.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

That's pretty cool. 10 channels is nice, but the three jets I've got going right now are nine channel airplanes.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Gordon, while of course your statements are true, there are certainly things Futaba could have done to make it very, very unlikely that an incorrect programming change would occur (ie Windows crashes and then all of the servos reverse or somthing). Of course I do not know if they did them or not!

If Futaba did a bad design (software or hardware), then all bets are off, but having recently worked on a radio design, I can tell you that this dual processor architecture is a great first step towards ensuring a reliable system.

Having said that, I am still surprised Futaba went with Windows, seems like they could have seen this sort of backlash coming a mile away, but maybe that is just with the technical types spouting off, so maybe it does not matter...who know, it looks to me like they are selling the sh*t out of them.

Ron Stahl

My Feedback: (12)

To illustrate the point of possible sales of $1200 and higher radios the entire 2005 estimated production was sold out before the MZ 14 hit the streets here in the US. I got that straight from Steve Helms President of Futaba of America at the ETOC. While I am not ready to sell off my JR equipment to get the extra channels as of yet. I did point out that JR needs to step up to the plate soon or I will be looking elsewhere for my next high end radio. I flew Futaba for over 25 years and made the switch to JR with my 10x 5 years ago and have not looked back until now.

JohnMac

Hi Gordon,
That really does not sound too good to me. Well the jury is still out.
Time will tell if it works but I am glad I am not the guinea pig!
Thanks for the advice,
Regards,

John.

JohnMac

Hi Ron,
Well JR do make a 12 channel radio but with the Graupner badge on it, in the shape of the MX-22. A couple of friends have just bought these readios and they are very impressed with them. Usual JR quality. Have you considered this radio?
Regards,

John.

Rebellion

My Feedback: (2)

A bit more info can be found [link=http://www.kc-10.net/forum/showthread.php?t=327]here.[/link]

If you are in a hurry read the first post then go directly to post # 32. Doesn't sound like JR's been napping too much.

Silver182

My Feedback: (2)

Your right Doug JR is not reactionary..... an example would be JR just recently announced their new synthesized trans & receiver modules. Futaba has had a synthesized system on the market for over 10 years, but as we know Futaba didn't offer a radio with enough channels for an equal or more number of years. It seems to me as a consumer, from a purely consumer's standpoint that virtually no radio manufacture is reactionary. Quite the opposite they seem to care very little what the consumer wants. Once they spend the nickle on a new design........ they are bound and determined to sell that product until it all but dies on the vine. Upon death and death only will they then call in a new electronic design expert / consultant, quickly set a few new parameters for design whatever comes about is again it for the next 15 years. We are a very small group of consumers to be sure, and as we all know money is the driving force in any business decision. I'm sure if we each purchased as many radios as airplanes on a consultant basis we would have more say so and more features to choose from.

Notice the choices these days in aircraft! Some times I browse through a magazine and dream of ordering a couple of everything that catches my eye.... then I come back to reality and turn the page, and order the glue. Good radios I'm sure are on the top of everyone's list, shoot I jumped on the 14MZ right a way... even if I didn't really need it..to say nothing of the cost.
Regards,
Lee H. DeMary

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Very intertesting thread, from the differing points that are being put forth....

I think you will very much see a reluctance with manufacturers to announce what they are working on until it is close to being shipped. In a lot of ways, it doesn't make good business sense to let the cat out of the bag too early. For one, it creates speculation and lets competitors know what is going on (they should always assume the other is working hard). The element of surprise is sometimes best, but catches many in the frey. I've bought very expensive software packages ($3k) only to have a new version out in less than two months and unable to upgrade (ok, I knocked hard enough and they gave in. heck, it was only a cd). The sales engineers told me that they aren't told when the software is being released. Anyways, to me, that is a part of life and we sometimes get caught by it. Tell me the new computer that you just bought hasn't already been obsoleted? But, of course, that computer does what it was advertised to do when you bought it, with no future promises.

I had never used a multiplex radio until recently when I became involved with a project building a flying dinosaur. Bob Parks (most in jet land know of him) recommended using the multiplex profi radio because we needed many channels and obscure mixing. For most, these radios are rare in the US (used overseas) and are not like the "flashy", aesthetically pleasing radios around in the us market. Many use them in trays and they aren't totally comfortable to hold. However, they are based on functionality and innovation over form. Example - you can mix anything to anything, and can assign any channel to any control on the transmitter (stick, slider, knob, etc). They have been around for a long time too. Once I figured out their programming thought process, I came to love its flexibility and overall capabilities. There's a lot of aftermarket add-ons like a single stick knob, stick top switch, etc that can be added. While not available for 72MHz, they have a 35MHz scanner module and some other neat gadgets. But, this radio isn't for everyone and has a different thought process to it in programming. It was built for a specific market and users that needed its features. At this point, I personally would consider buying one of these over all other radios on the market, because it fits my needs, and not wants.

The R/C hobby has many different levels. Some may need a simple radio. Others may want the 14MZ, 10x, etc, but IMHO, most tend to buy things that they will never use, based purely on marketing....

Michael

Brian B

My Feedback: (5)

I have been a Futaba user forever, but only because I started that way. If I had started with JR, it would have been the other way around. They are both fine radios which is why all the brand-bashing seems dumb to me. I recently retired my 8Us in favor of 9Cs, which will serve for every one of my jets.

I cannot imagine spending $2000 for channels I will never use, and I really don't want my radio talking to me. Some guys just gotta have the latest, no matter what. If JR came out with a $5000 radio with a built in PC, nav system, cell phone, and coffee maker, guys would buy them too.

Q8SABRE

My Feedback: (3)

Flanker
I enjoyed what you wrote

darryltarr

My Feedback: (2)

Hello Brian,

Thanks for your comments. It has also been very interesting reading all the other comments and opinions from everyone else.

Please remember that my reasons for starting this thread was NOT to brand-bash, and certainly NOT to cause animosity and fighting amongst fellow modelers. Remember, at the end of the day we all share the same interest . I also have a considerable amount of respect for other brands of radio BUT, I do love JR equipment and will remain totally 100% loyal and dedicated to them (I hope). My intentions were simply to hear other peoples opinion on JR marketing strategy (why the silence), and what we can look forward to in the future.

I think that most of you out there will agree on the following:

1. JR JAPAN should consider a dedicated website separate from Horizon Hobby. The product codes are different in the US compared to the rest of the World. Example, the 8611 in the US is a 8511 elsewhere.

2. Whether you fly $16'000 USD jets or $14'000 USD TOC aircraft, you are still faced with the same problem. Both types of aircraft may require 14+ channels (which the JR 10x cannot accommodate), and you get tired of all the multi-boxes. You simply run out of options.

3. An answer from JR regarding their NEW Flagship Radio would be appreciated.

So I will now put this to rest now and then wait patiently.

Happy landings,

Darryl

Ron Stahl

My Feedback: (12)

I do know of the 12 channel Graupner/ Jr radio. I have one at the shop where I work on weekends but the problem for me is that it is 12 channels only when it is in PPM mode. I would never fly a fast or expencive plane or heli without a PCM RX in the model. I know that all of you diehard PPM guys will disagree; but I have my own reasons why I will not fly my jets without PCM RX's that we can agreee to disagree on.

JohnMac

Hi Ron,
I quite understand re the PCM. Up until a few years ago I would have agreed with you entirely, but since the advent of IPD receivers I now use nothing else. These are PPM but with a failsafe capability, availble from Multiplex in 12 channel configuaration and can be ordered to work with the Gruapner/JR transmission protocol. They are also available as synth Rx's and I am now using nothing else in my jets.
So you get the best of both worlds. On the one hand the speed of PPM, onthe other the safeguards of PCM.
Worth a look.
Regards,

John

Topgun2mo

My Feedback: (45)

A Multiplex IPD receiver will reject the errant signals and the aircraft will act as the controls are slow. When it can no longer do that it will then go into failsafe. PCM is more prone to failsafe lockup than an IPD receiver given the same conditions. I know HarryC can explain it better than me.

Details 4 Scale

My Feedback: (3)

Guys,

The battle between JR and Futaba has raged for years. Think of them as Intel and AMD. JR has always been innovative and Futaba steady in their development pace. My first JR radio was from Circus Hobbies. A Galaxy. Miles ahead at the time. If anyone remembers the radio back then. I still have it and it still works great. Just don't use a Galaxy receiver in the crouded electrical environment today. I'm sure that when JR is ready, their new product will blow people away. They're just not going to let the cat out of the bag before it's ready, and fully tested! I switched from Futaba in 1980. I just got tired of the same old thing from them back then.
I've read up on the spread spectrum for aircraft and there are a lot of issues to resolve before we see one for aircraft. If the spectrum is in the 72mhz band, what frequency will the spectrum switch to. The band widths and the selectivity are already very tight. There just isn't much room in our bandwidth to go bouncing the frequencies around. We have a lot of other things on very close adjacent channels to us. Since the ground frequencies don't have the range we do, the interference isn't a problem for spread spectrum. The signal just doesn't travel that far. The only solution I can see is for a digitized coded signal that you program yourself. Keeloq technology (car alarms etc.) is the only thing I can see happening in the future...But we are still going to be bound by the parameters of the base frequency. Either way, give the guys at JR a break...I think they've done a great job in accomplishing what they have so far. I'm sure we won't be dissapointed in the future.

Dan Gill
Details 4 Scale

Steve108

My Feedback: (36)

IMHO, Who needs to have a picture of thier plane on thier radio. I mean come on - does that help you fly? Again, just my opinion.

itsme

I think having a picture of your plane is a great idea! At least you'll never lose sight of it!!!

I started with JR and now I'm a hardened Futaba fan. I doubt I'll ever go back. Kept having trouble with the JR and have been very happy with Futaba. Just my thoughts...

MNModels

Well there you have it. People are people and therefor we all differ and we will buy what we like.

If you look back at all the models that were produced by JR it is clear that there marketing team know what they are doing. JR radios through Horizon in the states are not the same models as JR in Europe or JR in England. Even the servo's have different numbers.

Why you may ask? All about sales. JR will not discontinue a radio until sales are very bad and the competitor takes the market share. The 10X is such a good radio that it outclassed Futaba. Then futaba brought out a 9channel and JR followed by a 9X just to keep customers happy.

Sorry but i do not think anybody flying JR 10X JR/Graupner will migrate to Futaba. Anyway not so that it will effect market share.

JR know we need more channels with complex Jet models. Thats why they they developed the matchboxes. How many people fly Jets compare to other aircraft? How many channels do you want to fly a TOC Extra330? You rather want rock solid RF, so your investment returns safe to live another day. I think it will be unwise to spend million of dollars to develop a radio for a niche market.

The Futaba 14 is a "nice to have" item to show off at your friend. When it comes down to doing the job, JR still doing it. JR will introduce a new radio when the time is right.


Just my 2c.

Pitts S1S

My Feedback: (9)

Heres part of a post from another site....

Jr
16 channels
spread spectrum

should be at least announced if not released later this year. I have no idea what bells and whistles will come with it , but 16 ch and spread spectrum are super and exactly what the hobby needs !

as for other news (which i spilled some of already)

Futaba will be discontinuing the 9zap soon. A 12 ch ver of the 14mz will be made available to replace it at a lower price. The 12mz will be the same case as the 14mz, but with software limited to 2 less channels, and also the lack of some other functions and programing. Futaba put over 2$ mil into the 14mz development, and the high price of the 14 mz was their way of making the $ back ... there are always those that immediately jump on any new band wagon comming around ... (14mzs are sold out and on back order already in most places, so this shows Futaba's plan worked)