Hi Guys,

Firstly I have deliberately posted this thread in the Jets section as I need the opinion from you jet pilots. So here goes.

I was just wandering if any of you think that "JR HAS LOST THE PLOT"

I switched from Futaba to JR back in 1992. My first JR radio was the 10s, then a few years later the 10sx, and now I have a couple of 10x.

The 10x is a great radio BUT come on JR, you definitely need an answer to Futaba's 14MZ. If there is something in the pipe line then at least advise us so. If there is nothing in the pipeline, then wake up. In my profession I travel a lot, all over the world, and have just asked the JR agents in Singapore if we can expect anything soon from JR, but just received a blank look as if they don't know what Futaba has done. I also spoke to JR McGregor in the UK, and again no positive answer.

Can anyone out shed some light on this.

Safe flying.

Darryl Tarr
Boeing 777 Captain
Emirates Airline

The JR 10x is a great radio (I have three) of outstanding quality and reliability, but has been in production for too long, things have moved on in electronics, take a look at digital cameras, computers, mobile phones etc. So yes, wake up JR.
Regards,

David Gladwin,

JR since 1982.

Hello Darryl

I think that all the JR stalwarts are all waiting anxiously. I think that the JR engineers are not getting much sleep at the moment! I have the 10X and am very happy with it. I don't need 12 proportional channels yet so I can hold on for a while, not long though. Futaba kept their 14MZ a secret up until October last year. I am sure that if we watch this space, something will pop up. I must say that I would prefer to wait a while and get something bullet proof-like the 10X-than get something with bugs in it. BTW, beautiful runway and facilities you guys have got - green with envy.

Zane

First off.. do you really think JR has been sitting on the 10X and not thinking of how to improve it? I'd be willing to bet the day the 10X was shipped to the 1st customer they started working on the next thing down the line. I don't have any clue as to when a new radio might come from JR, but I can assure you they didn't just close up shop once the 10X was done.

Secondly.. does the existance of the 14MZ suddenly make the 10X a bad radio? Does the 14MZ do things you need that you simply cannot do with the 10X? I'm sure some people just have to have the latest and greatest toy, but consider this.. The 10X is a time tested and proven radio. I'm not so willing to just throw something new into an airplane just because it's new. Maybe you are.

Lastly, and most importantly, JR is not a reactionary company. They're not going to rush something to market just because Futaba or any other brand for that matter has something new out. When JR is ready to release a new product that they feel is complete and tested to the best of their ability, THEN you'll see it released.

And just to repeat... I have no knowledge of when anything new might come from JR.

Hello Captain,
Must be Amy that given u the b.an. look!

Regards

Albert

Hi Darryl,
Perhaps you are right, perhaps JR and other manufacturers do need to reply to Futaba, at least from a marketing perspective.. The 14MZ has been the centre of attention for months and without doubt has some innovative features (very unusual for Futaba).
But as a jet modeller who needs practical solutions to the problems we are faced with in our complex jet models, what does this new radio from Futaba actually offer me; I am awaiting a reasoned synopsis of its actual capabilites rather than the glitz? Jpeg pictures may be nice for the illiterate, and a few seconds of mpeg music is amusing, but what will it actually do?

Regards,

John.

Hello Doug,

Firstly, CALM DOWN. I never mentioned that the 10x was a bad radio. Chr**t, I have three of them. Also I am the most patriotic JR guy that I know, and will continue to be so.

However, I think in this case the silence from JR is driving some customers away. The 14MZ is far from perfect (so I have heard), but I think that JR should at least tell its valued customers something like this:

Yes guys, we will have something for you in the near future, and its worth waiting for. No idea of a release date yet, but you can expect something towards the end of the year.

Get my point.

Darryl

Darryl,

Don't get fooled by Futaba's marketing dept hyperbole.

JR, in association with Graupner, has been making 12 channel radios since 1997. JR/Graupner now make two different 12 channel radios.

The 14 MZ is not a true 14 channel radio. It is 12 proportional channels plus 2 of Futaba's 1-bit, 2 position "channels". Since a rubber band driven escapement in the 1960s was able to give 3 positions, not just 2, it is hardly something to be proud of.

If you are willing to use the word "channels" for those +2 things, then the Multiplex radios are 17 channels, so I hardly think Futaba has anything to boast about.

The marketing hype gives data frame times for the 14MZ in comparison to the 9Z and boasts that this shows the 14MZ is a wonderful new thing, the "real time response" radio. Err, no, what it shows is that the 9Z is not a real time response radio. The 14MZ is now as fast as a 9 channel PPM radio, that's what Futaba calls "real time response". It's good they have squeezed 12 + 2 channels into that same time, but don't go thinking you are going to get a radio that feels any faster than an old PPM set.

The Multiplex 4000 has been able to talk to its pilot since 1995, so the 14MZ hardly breaks new ground there.

Where is the channel checker? The frequency scanner? The safe in-flight programming capability?

So it can show a picture of your model. That's really useful isn't it?

It will be a very very good radio, but ignore the hype and the chrome and the flashing lights, and read the real numbers. It's is nowhere near being the ground breaking radio that the hype suggests.

Thanks Harry,

You are absolutely right about the Multiplex radios, plus the involvment between JR and Graupner. This is my point exactly.

The technology is there. JR and Graupner developed the 12 channel radio simply because the demand for such equipment in Germany was large. I am NOT expecting JR to release a 14 channel radio. I had my sights on something bigger like the 18+ channel with all the safety features that you mentioned. Thanks for your comments.


And heres something else for you Doug.

You say: Quote: JR is not a reactionary company. They're not going to rush something to market just because Futaba or any other brand for that matter has something new out.

You know that in the Aviation Industry as soon as new ideas are talked about, they are made public. This may be months, even years before their release. But at least peole know its comming. Do you think that when Boeing decide to release something new Airbus keeps quiet and visa versa. Not at all, they are quick to jump to the challenge otherwise SOMEONE WILL LOOSE OUT BIT TIME. The end result is always something very good and compeditive (from both sides). Why, because they listen to their customers.

Anyway, my whole idea of this post was not to downgrade any manufacturer. It was simply to find out if there is something really good to look forward to from JR.

Happy landings,

Darryl

First let me say that I fly Futaba (9C) mostly, but I use JR servos in my jets and work with 10X systems all the time in the consulting work I do with NASA. The JR 10X systems are top-notch, as are most of the Futaba systems. I'd be comfortable with proven technology from either, or both as the case may warrant. That being said...

YES! I've spent countless hours working on using the 10X's outdated and inadequate P-Mixes to operate things like spoilerons on the NASA generic transport research model - which by the way, requires 11 proportional channels to operate, so we have a two-pilot operation. This, if for no other reason, is why the 10X needs to be upgraded. More than enough computing power and memory is available for use in the flight control processor part (not the Windows CE GUI part) that archaic mixing schemes like used in the 10X need to go. Heck my $200 9C has better mixing/switch reassignment capability than the 10X!


I agree completely! I am not ready to fly a 14MZ in my jet, but I'd gladly fly a 10X - they are proven bulletproof. However, once the 14MX has been proven (after the initial bugs are worked out, and I've heard there have been a couple), it will be head and sholders above the 10X as far as capability is concerned. That is why most folks are wondering what JR has in the pipeline...

Ah, well that's 2 more proportional and 2 non-proportional (very handy on a scale jet as we all know) than the 10X has. I'd be proud of it if I were them.

Also, you might go take a look at one and see the things that the 14MZ has going for it like the capabilities for switch/channel reassignment and mixing capability and flexibility, the capability to select any channel and communicate that with the RX wirelessly, but without transmitting on the RC frequencies, etc. Its not the ultimate radio for sure, but it is very impressive and a significant improvement in the technology.

As far as the Multiplex radios are concerned, I'm sure they are great, but most of us here in the US are going to wait until JR releases a new radio under their own name before we'd switch to Multiplex. I can't defend that as logical, but its a market truism none the less.

JR already has a radio better than the PCM-10 series. My first high end radio was a PCM10, then the S, then SX etc. Then I moved up to the Graupner MC-24 made by JR. It's been around a while and is pretty much a match for anything out there. It may not be for everyone since it's the large European size, but I've yet to see a transmitter that I'd rather have.

You talk about "hype", but your post above sounds like pure hype, only instead of the professional hype of Futaba's marketing department, it's pure amateur hype. Actually makes Multiplex sound like a sore loser, makes Futaba look good.
Say, you don't have any sort of professional association with Multiplex, do you? None? Cause it sure SOUNDS like you want to sell something here.

Riddle me THIS, batman...if Multiplex is so freakin' great, why do you NEVER see any at the field here in America?


I'd bet that JR has a really nice radio in the works to compete with the 14 Futaba.
I also think it's probably not a big rush...my guess is that these radios represent such a tiny, tiny portion of their customers and their profits, they are probably just a prestige thing.

I doubt JR would announce a new radio untill it is ready, or very nearly ready, for release. The day they announce the "18XYZ super X" is the day that 10X sales stop, and 10X sales are appearently still good. There are a lot of guys out there who would buy a 10X today and the new super radio 6 months from now, if they did not know the new radio was coming out, but would wait if they knew of the new radio.

Steven

Well said.
Again, I also think the market for the $1200+ radio is very small...the profit on each one is very high, but the volume is very small, and the R&D very high, so it's somethign of a "loss leader", because they could stamp out five channel $200 radios all day and sell five hundred of them for every 14 channel rig. Just my two cents...

Jeeezus. You talk about "back in the escapement days..."
Dude...even back THEN...for forty years...Futaba has been making GREAT radios that were reliable, had great features, and were reasonably priced, and Multiplex has been playing catch-up. It's like a frickin' Tucker automobile...nobody ASKED for a single central headlight connected to steer with the steering wheel. They said "ooh, cool!" and then went on to BUY something that had comfortable seats.
So don't bust on Futaba...futaba is LISTENING to what people want and giving it to them, bigtime, at really affordable rates, while Multiplex is eating their dust.

Especaially if you are a sneaky-azz rep without a signature, jumping in on a thread that has NOTHING to do with multiplex, sneaking in hype for their own product while slamming somebody else's.
Ever see a Futaba(or JR) rep behave like that?
Maybe the skanky reps have something to do with Multiplex being so unpopular?


JR is great, too. They finally came up with something to rival the 9C futaba, I bet whatever they come up with to rival the 14 is going to be really, really impressive. Are they maybe a little too slow on this? Maybe...but I'm not sure it makes a difference, as most of the people who are going to buy one of these will wait.

horizon presently has spread spectrum available for their land systems. i have a feeling we are close to seeing the true next generation of radios when the genie is out of the bottle on the airplane side. i know these issues have been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum, but there are working prototypes out there and the big manufacturers have seen them.. i would hate to spend the $$'s for the new futaba now when i sense we are pretty close to something revutionary. be it a simple module/receiver combination or a completely new radio kit, jr has typically delivered some of the better thought out and user friendly equipment

Another great point. Bet JR is waiting on spread spectrum.

Dont care if Futaba has 94 channels including color TV. I'M NOT CHANGING! Besides that, Futaba servos can't even come close to the JR line.

I agree to a certain extent. Conversely, if a loyal JR customer asks whether JR is coming out with something new, gets told "No", buys another 10X and then 5 months later JR releases a new radio which has clearly been in extended development for some time.... then it seems to me that that customer would be entitled to be p'd off about being lied to, and might react by shifting alliances to the other camp. While JR (or any other company for that matter) may prefer to get a sale now rather than a sale in several months time, it could also be quite short-sighted of them to not realize that a sale a few months from now followed by more sales by someone who is loyal to the brand is perhaps better than one sale now followed by zero on-going sales due to having p'd the customer off.

Furthermore, I would think it is better to keep brand loyalty alive by letting the JR customers know that they can get what they want from JR if they are a little more patient, than to allow or perhaps even encourage brand defection by letting it appear that JR is not interested in giving us anything new. But ... I'm not a marketing guy - just a customer.

BTW, if a new JR radio comes out that is priced like the new Futaba radio, then while 10X sales would drop, it's not necessarily true that 'The day they announce the "18XYZ super X" is the day that 10X sales stop' .... there will still be people for whom a $1000 TX is in their budget, but a $2400 one is not (or whatever the actual costs are). Additionally, if JR goes the Windoze route too [X(] without the ability of turning Windoze off while flying, they can expect sales of the 10X to still go on to people like me

YMMV, which is fine.

Gordon

Even if it is CABLE tv, with all the adult channels?

I think you probably represent the core customer for this radio...JR loyal, and willing to wait.

BUT...if a new radio is that earth-shaking, namely with spread spectrum, I bet you have a huge amount of people willing to switch brands.

Ford vs. Chevy, Viojett vs. Dynamax, Red Sox vs. Yankees, MacIntosh vs.....the rest of the world, Less Filling vs. Tastes Great, JR vs. Futaba. Why can't we all just get along?

(If you want to see flame wars over nothing, you should see what the 13-year-old boys post about PS2 vs. Xbox on the video game forums!)

ET,

Re Multiplex (a JR manufactured radio) check out how many will be used at the World Masters in Hungary........ might explain why none are in the States, they are too popular elsewhere so you guys can't have them

By the way lighten up on HarryC...... he knows his stuff on radio control systems, I don't think I could see where you were going with his amatuer hype message............ think you should check your depth before getting Batman into the equation

I think that the Futuba represents some new technology thinking, and worthy of consideration. As a dedicated JR user, cos that is how I started, and I see no point in changing, it does what I need and it is all paid for, I will be most interested to see in what comes out next. Would sure help if JR were a bit more proactive in the marketing area, and had their own website, some sharing of concepts would be good.

Can anyone remember when the rumours of the MZ started hitting the streets? Like was it just before launch or some considerable time before launch?

Have a fun flying weekend for those who will get the weather,

Gazzer

Well Easytiger,
You appear to be entirely devoid of any factual information. Not a particularly good basis for slander in my opinion. Harry is not a Multiplex rep for your information (neither am I before you sling more accusations). His point of view, his opinions are his own and are as valid as any one elses, whichever thread they appear in. So far as I can see, his assertions as factual.
Contrast and compare this with your comments. In particular I await with interest an example of where Futaba has had a technical lead on Multiplex (MP3 player excepted). I will not be holding my breath.
You assert that Futaba is reliable, well I beg to differ. My experience was terrible with Futaba. Multiplex has never let me down
You assert that Futaba is affordable. Well here in Europe you can by 2 MC 4000 radio's for the price of the new Futaba and have change. I accept that the dollar/euro exchange rate means that this is not mirrored in the USA.
At the end of the day I don't really care what you want to spend your money on, it's your money.
However, if you want to defend Futaba against an adverse opinion, can I suggest that you sprinkle in the odd fact rather than just rant.
Regards,

John.

Gazzer,
Multiplex is built in Germany by Multiplex. I think you are thinking of the Graupner range, which is built by JR. It seems to have been a very sucessful collabaration for both companies.
To be honest Multiplex has never had the manufacturing capacity to get a real foothold in the USA. The strategy has always been quality rather than volume, one that I for one hope continues. I can't help but think that the new owners will find ways of increasing the production volume and addressing the cost base with aview to achieving more market penatration especially in the US market.
I just hope that they do not sacrifice quality and innovation.
Regards,

John.

Hi Gordon,
Whilst I sympathise with your point of view, from a marketing perspective pre notification of a new model is a very sensitive business. Get it right and you steal a march on your competitors, get it wrong and you dissapoint and frustrate your customers, whilst killing your short term sales.
So far as the 14Mz using a windows interface, is this really so much of a problem? So far as I am aware the windows operating system does not interfer with the actual control operating system, and therefore when you eventually get the blue screen of death, the radio keeps working. OK, when you land you may have to do a soft reset, but so long as the program is backed up nothing is lost, or am I not understanding this right?
If it works this seems to me to be a good way forward.
Regards,

John