speed records???
09-13-2005 | 07:51 AM
#27
RE: speed records???
Oh, I think 300 is do-able, but you need more than just horsepower, you need to look carefully at every little bit of drag. I think the AMT guys got only up to 287(don't quote me) with a bandit with similar power, and they worked hard at cleaning the airplane up. Go for it! The Trance is a VERY clean airplane...somewhere around, there is a video of it...
300 is not hard or all that fast at all ! On a at400 ( pre its 3rd seizure ) my KingCat ( which was a dry 36 lbs pig) pulled 255 and that was in level flight and not even trying ! .. It had 270+ in her if I gave more room for an aproach, and out of a dive, i bet 300 would not have been out of the question ( i would not try this, this plane is not built for it, and all im saying it could aerodynamically / power wise ) so now why the heck would it be so far fetched to have a bandit on a ram 1000 pulling 280+ ? the CAI raptors on 27lbs AMT 28s were able to pull up to 270 and those are heavier and bigger than the bandit ...
Wojtek
09-13-2005 | 08:59 AM
#28
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From: Oslo, NORWAY
RE: speed records???
When I first saw this video, it was claimed that this delta was doing 511 kph or 317 mph....
I have no verification of that, but it sure is FAST!!! [X(][X(]
Tor
http://media.putfile.com/fastdelta
I have no verification of that, but it sure is FAST!!! [X(][X(]
Tor
http://media.putfile.com/fastdelta
09-13-2005 | 11:48 AM
#30
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RE: speed records???
ORIGINAL: wojtek
300 is not hard or all that fast at all ! On a at400 ( pre its 3rd seizure ) my KingCat ( which was a dry 36 lbs pig) pulled 255 and that was in level flight and not even trying ! .. It had 270+ in her if I gave more room for an aproach, and out of a dive, i bet 300 would not have been out of the question ( i would not try this, this plane is not built for it, and all im saying it could aerodynamically / power wise ) so now why the heck would it be so far fetched to have a bandit on a ram 1000 pulling 280+ ? the CAI raptors on 27lbs AMT 28s were able to pull up to 270 and those are heavier and bigger than the bandit ...
Wojtek
Oh, I think 300 is do-able, but you need more than just horsepower, you need to look carefully at every little bit of drag. I think the AMT guys got only up to 287(don't quote me) with a bandit with similar power, and they worked hard at cleaning the airplane up. Go for it! The Trance is a VERY clean airplane...somewhere around, there is a video of it...
300 is not hard or all that fast at all ! On a at400 ( pre its 3rd seizure ) my KingCat ( which was a dry 36 lbs pig) pulled 255 and that was in level flight and not even trying ! .. It had 270+ in her if I gave more room for an aproach, and out of a dive, i bet 300 would not have been out of the question ( i would not try this, this plane is not built for it, and all im saying it could aerodynamically / power wise ) so now why the heck would it be so far fetched to have a bandit on a ram 1000 pulling 280+ ? the CAI raptors on 27lbs AMT 28s were able to pull up to 270 and those are heavier and bigger than the bandit ...
Wojtek
I think you are underestimating the amount of effort, and overestimating the importance of power. That air is a square, like someone pointed out before, it takes twice the power to go just a little faster. If I may quote the late Mr. Scott : "I canna change the laws of physics!"
So, if you want to break 300, you had better look at perfectly sealed gear doors, perfectly concealed linkages, every little bit of drag. Look at the design and expense put into full scale civil aircraft nowadays, people will spend $5000 on some fairings to clean up the struts and gain two knots, because they know they can double the horsepower for $25k and still only gain one knot. I may be exaggerating, but you get the point.
The difference between 270 and 300 is MUCH greater than the difference between 240 and 270, get my drift?
Check out that trance, see what I mean by clean! I bet that thing WAS doing 317, or at least something close to it.
09-13-2005 | 11:56 AM
#31
RE: speed records???
So, if you want to break 300, you had better look at perfectly sealed gear doors, perfectly concealed linkages, every little bit of drag.
Wojtek
09-13-2005 | 01:21 PM
#32
RE: speed records???
Another thing to keep in mind is density altitude... Planes go faster when flying high. A supersonic fighter that can reach 2.500 Km/h at high altitude just barely do 1.500 km/h at sea level.
A good place to brake a world speed record would be a quite high altitude... like our club that is over 3.000 feet above sea level. [8D]
Enrique
A good place to brake a world speed record would be a quite high altitude... like our club that is over 3.000 feet above sea level. [8D]
Enrique
09-13-2005 | 04:04 PM
#33
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RE: speed records???
I don't know as much about the physics as I would like to, but the plane in that video was SMOKING!!! I may have an overactive imagination, but the outline slightly resembled a SR-71 at a glance. I wonder how big a deal it would be to morph it into a Sorta-71 with fake engine pods to make it look like a twin.
Does that launch off of a dolly?
Does that launch off of a dolly?
09-13-2005 | 04:26 PM
#34
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From: Southport, UNITED KINGDOM
RE: speed records???
Yes, Easytiger, is seeing the picture well. Believe me you will really struggle to hit 300; hope you can do it but you need to be on far less than 50% throttle, all of the rest will be needed to get anywhere near the magic M0.5
By the way, doing it at altitude will not help due to the drop off in engine performance. Fullsize engines are designed to be most efficient at altitude whereas the simple design of our microturbines has the opposite effect.
Rob.
By the way, doing it at altitude will not help due to the drop off in engine performance. Fullsize engines are designed to be most efficient at altitude whereas the simple design of our microturbines has the opposite effect.
Rob.
09-13-2005 | 05:05 PM
#35
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RE: speed records???
I've seen it with CL speed and such...everybody finds a setup that will hit 200(or whatever), and then the next 5mph becomes twice as much work and refinement than the first 200mph.
It also would really pay to not reinvent the wheel...if you are trying to make a Bandit go fast, the first place to go would be to the guys in the Netherlands who already did it and find out what secrets they have, what walls they hit. I do not recall it to be a case of just stuffing a large engine in and firing it up, I think they did plenty of refinement work...don't go over the same ground. I think there are some details of their speed runs on the AMT Netherlands site, but I may be disremembering.
That's enlightening about the density altitude with model engines...
It also would really pay to not reinvent the wheel...if you are trying to make a Bandit go fast, the first place to go would be to the guys in the Netherlands who already did it and find out what secrets they have, what walls they hit. I do not recall it to be a case of just stuffing a large engine in and firing it up, I think they did plenty of refinement work...don't go over the same ground. I think there are some details of their speed runs on the AMT Netherlands site, but I may be disremembering.
That's enlightening about the density altitude with model engines...
09-13-2005 | 07:14 PM
#36
RE: speed records???
All I can say is that my P-80 pushes over 20 lbs here ( 3.000 feet) ... so it seems that there is not a significant power loss... but at the same time, planes stall faster here, gliders float less and planes
go quicker... so: less drag + same turbine power = faster jets!!!!! [8D][8D][8D]
Enrique
go quicker... so: less drag + same turbine power = faster jets!!!!! [8D][8D][8D]
Enrique
09-14-2005 | 06:14 AM
#37
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From: Järvenpää, FINLAND
RE: speed records???
Some MEASURED data:
Subject:
Five Jet
Thrust speed
70N 315 km/h
140N 375 km/h
Measuring device:
Real Design Flight Data Recorder
Some other interesting data:
Take off and landing speed 56 km/h
Max g-force during normal flight 6.5 g and when I tried to release other main gear when it was stucked inside the max g-force was 9.5 g
Max flying height 800 m
Max battery current when flaps were taken out 1.6 A
I think that doubling the speed is quite tough job.
Subject:
Five Jet
Thrust speed
70N 315 km/h
140N 375 km/h
Measuring device:
Real Design Flight Data Recorder
Some other interesting data:
Take off and landing speed 56 km/h
Max g-force during normal flight 6.5 g and when I tried to release other main gear when it was stucked inside the max g-force was 9.5 g
Max flying height 800 m
Max battery current when flaps were taken out 1.6 A
I think that doubling the speed is quite tough job.
09-14-2005 | 11:30 AM
#38
RE: speed records???
That´s not bad for a five jet... but it´s not hard to do at all with a powerful turbine and a more
suitable jet for speed flying. this is also measured data.
Best regards, Enrique
suitable jet for speed flying. this is also measured data.
Best regards, Enrique
09-14-2005 | 12:22 PM
#39
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From: Southport, UNITED KINGDOM
RE: speed records???
I'll tell you how it can be achieved without the use of monster power or some super-duper ptfe coated airframe....build yourself a WIG(Wings In Ground effect) machine such like the Russian Caspian Sea Monster or the many other wild and wonderful creations of all shapes and sizes that exploit this concept !! Then learn how to fly very fast right down around 25% of your wingspan off the hard deck!!
Probably best done over flat calm water with the use of giros for stability. You will get all the speed you need and mach 0.5 would be a walk in the park.
The Caspian Sea Monster needed it's 8 massive forward engines to get up to speed but once there in the hugely reduced drag zone of ground effect.... all 8 engines were shut down and only the 2 small tail mounted engines needed to sustain.
In theory even the best low drag high speed airframe can only achieve half the drag coefficient of a well designed ground effect machine.
Food for thought.
Rob.
Probably best done over flat calm water with the use of giros for stability. You will get all the speed you need and mach 0.5 would be a walk in the park.
The Caspian Sea Monster needed it's 8 massive forward engines to get up to speed but once there in the hugely reduced drag zone of ground effect.... all 8 engines were shut down and only the 2 small tail mounted engines needed to sustain.
In theory even the best low drag high speed airframe can only achieve half the drag coefficient of a well designed ground effect machine.
Food for thought.
Rob.
09-14-2005 | 12:35 PM
#40
RE: speed records???
Yes, it is possible. a very sleek ground effect machine, with loads of thrust and very little frontal
area is capable of going very fast, but it wouldn´t be able to dive... the r/c plane that flew at more than 600 km/h in a dive in the gps pic, only achieved about 400 km/h flying horizontaly.
Even with a higher parasitic and induced drag, compared to a wig, a winged machine has this definitive advantage.
Enrique
area is capable of going very fast, but it wouldn´t be able to dive... the r/c plane that flew at more than 600 km/h in a dive in the gps pic, only achieved about 400 km/h flying horizontaly.
Even with a higher parasitic and induced drag, compared to a wig, a winged machine has this definitive advantage.
Enrique
09-15-2005 | 11:38 AM
#43
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From: Southport, UNITED KINGDOM
RE: speed records???
Hi Enrique, which aircraft and engine recorded the 671kph max velocity ? This is well over 400mph!!
Incredible that it 'only' does around 400kph in level flight but over 50% faster in a dive.
Rob.
Incredible that it 'only' does around 400kph in level flight but over 50% faster in a dive.
Rob.
09-15-2005 | 12:43 PM
#44
RE: speed records???
Rob: here it is the link to the plane and the event:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_31...2Cevent/tm.htm
about this speed reading, it was achieved after some tries, and this reading was done by the highest dive by far... other readings with not so high dives where at the 500-600 mark.
Sonnich: I didn´t have a video of those dives, but I am sure that they will pop soon. many people will attend the jet speed event and some of them with good cameras and filmaking skills. There are only two guys (myself included) with jetcats at our club and we didn´t have the airspeed sensor.. The other bunch of guys use AMT engines...
Heatseeker_Hill: I think that a R/C Turbine Caspian Sea Monster would be great... who will
be the first to make one?
Enrique
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_31...2Cevent/tm.htm
about this speed reading, it was achieved after some tries, and this reading was done by the highest dive by far... other readings with not so high dives where at the 500-600 mark.
Sonnich: I didn´t have a video of those dives, but I am sure that they will pop soon. many people will attend the jet speed event and some of them with good cameras and filmaking skills. There are only two guys (myself included) with jetcats at our club and we didn´t have the airspeed sensor.. The other bunch of guys use AMT engines...
Heatseeker_Hill: I think that a R/C Turbine Caspian Sea Monster would be great... who will
be the first to make one?
Enrique
09-16-2005 | 09:20 AM
#45
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From: NRW, GERMANY
RE: speed records???
Hi guys,
here you can see the plane Easytiger is referring to.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_27..._2/key_/tm.htm
For the ones who do not know Behotec engines, the JB 165 stands for 165 N of thrust.
The v.i.d.e.o. is no longer on the internet.
Vmax
here you can see the plane Easytiger is referring to.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_27..._2/key_/tm.htm
For the ones who do not know Behotec engines, the JB 165 stands for 165 N of thrust.
The v.i.d.e.o. is no longer on the internet.
Vmax
09-16-2005 | 11:01 AM
#46
RE: speed records???
Just recovered a amazing article in a old magazine.. I know that some people today achieve extreme speeds on slope gliders (150+ mph on the gps) .. . but this glider was measured in a dive at optimum conditions using photocells at 242 mph more than 20 years ago!
http://www.favonius.com/soaring/speed/speed.htm
Best regards, Enrique
http://www.favonius.com/soaring/speed/speed.htm
Best regards, Enrique
09-16-2005 | 12:11 PM
#47
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My Feedback: (119)
RE: speed records???
ORIGINAL: erbroens
Just recovered a amazing article in a old magazine.. I know that some people today achieve extreme speeds on slope gliders (150+ mph on the gps) .. . but this glider was measured in a dive at optimum conditions using photocells at 242 mph more than 20 years ago!
http://www.favonius.com/soaring/speed/speed.htm
Best regards, Enrique
Just recovered a amazing article in a old magazine.. I know that some people today achieve extreme speeds on slope gliders (150+ mph on the gps) .. . but this glider was measured in a dive at optimum conditions using photocells at 242 mph more than 20 years ago!
http://www.favonius.com/soaring/speed/speed.htm
Best regards, Enrique
09-16-2005 | 12:15 PM
#48
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My Feedback: (119)
RE: speed records???
ORIGINAL: Robrow
I'll tell you how it can be achieved without the use of monster power or some super-duper ptfe coated airframe....build yourself a WIG(Wings In Ground effect) machine such like the Russian Caspian Sea Monster or the many other wild and wonderful creations of all shapes and sizes that exploit this concept !! Then learn how to fly very fast right down around 25% of your wingspan off the hard deck!!
Probably best done over flat calm water with the use of giros for stability. You will get all the speed you need and mach 0.5 would be a walk in the park.
The Caspian Sea Monster needed it's 8 massive forward engines to get up to speed but once there in the hugely reduced drag zone of ground effect.... all 8 engines were shut down and only the 2 small tail mounted engines needed to sustain.
In theory even the best low drag high speed airframe can only achieve half the drag coefficient of a well designed ground effect machine.
Food for thought.
Rob.
I'll tell you how it can be achieved without the use of monster power or some super-duper ptfe coated airframe....build yourself a WIG(Wings In Ground effect) machine such like the Russian Caspian Sea Monster or the many other wild and wonderful creations of all shapes and sizes that exploit this concept !! Then learn how to fly very fast right down around 25% of your wingspan off the hard deck!!
Probably best done over flat calm water with the use of giros for stability. You will get all the speed you need and mach 0.5 would be a walk in the park.
The Caspian Sea Monster needed it's 8 massive forward engines to get up to speed but once there in the hugely reduced drag zone of ground effect.... all 8 engines were shut down and only the 2 small tail mounted engines needed to sustain.
In theory even the best low drag high speed airframe can only achieve half the drag coefficient of a well designed ground effect machine.
Food for thought.
Rob.
I can PM you my adress so you can get those engines shipped out!
Cool plane...as far as I know, nobody has built an amphibious model turbine aircraft, a Convair Sea Dart would be cool. Throw in one more of your nice engines and I will do that one, too!
