do models in the jet masters that are scratch built get more points for this and why dont they have a trophy for best scratch built model. it is an achievment getting any aircraft up to the standards of the world masters but it is a lot easier with some kits with a lot of hard work done for you . i am trying to start an argument here but surely you must all agree that there should at least be a seperate trophy for this. i am more impressed to see a high quality model built from scratch or from a low grade kit rather than seeing an impreesive aircraft from an expensive kit. money should not buy success. craftsmanship and pilot skills should .

There is no recognition for scratch built models, no awards, and no points.

Heatseeker

I must say I agree with you on this one. The JWM winning Hawk is from an all composite kit with all the surface detail moulded in. The third placed model (Mirage 2000) is completely scratch built from the builders own plans and has home made undecarriage / wheels etc. I am sure there were other completely scratch built models but I don't know exactly which.

To my mind this is in the true spirit of scale modelling and deserves recognition.

John

IMHO Scratch builts should be in their own class.

John,DRibband and Heatseeker Hill
I can understand the answers that you have all given,I can also comprehend the expense and development time that people like Bob Violet put into their products ,but isnt it time that the IJMC recognised individual , scratch scale builders on an even playing field .I know that weighting the marks for or against scratch / professionally developred models would be difficult but it would increase credibility of "scale" jet modeling.
Tim

My two cents?
Right now there aren't enough competitors to have another class.
Give it a few years.
Also...I know nobody has actually SAID this...it STILL takes a lot of work to make an all-composite kit into a winning model. Is it a great head start? Sure. But it does not make the job EASY. Easier, sure.
Do people who start from scratch deserve their own class? Yes. But maybe not yet.

ET,

Why do you think there are not many competitors? I think many people are put off by the extremely high price of suitable kits.


I guess it boils down to what the world masters should be about. If it should be a demonstration of the most awesome models in the world then let it continue as it does. But does this really show who the world master is or just who has the biggest bank balance? It certainly does not show who the best modeller/pilot is.

I am not suggesting that the previous competitors are not great pilots, but how many more are out there who cannot afford an airworld Hawk (or similar)?

I think another class for either scratch built or limited on size would massively increase the number of competitors present. My current thinking is that I cannot jusify spending that much money on a model and I am unlikely to be competitive with the sort of model that I can afford, so why bother?

I am desperately trying to source a model that I can afford, that I won't be embarrassed to fly at a top level competition.

Darren

I don't think anyone could deny Tommy Gleissner's flying skills and he was a worthy winner, the choice of type can be just as important as the execution of the model and the Airworld Hawk flies beautifully and looks absolutely right in the air . However, having said that a deep wallet gives you an advantage with a composite kit with all the extras, it may actually cost less to complete than a scratch built model if you factor in the number of hours required to put a scratch built model together and cost these hours out at any kind of realistic rate.

Let's face it, that's why composite kits and ARTF'S are so popular now, not many of us have unlimited leisure time and, I for one would rather be flying than building.

I am sure a scale metal finish on a BVM F100 takes a lot more time and skill than the gloss finish on a Red Arrows Hawk, but you are replicating the full size and both finishes, if well executed should score similiar marks despite the disparity in skill needed to apply the alternative finishes.

I would like to see some sort of recognition of the skill in building a model from scratch, but unless there is a separate class I think it might be difficult. Anyone have any ideas?


John

I guess it kinda depends what the organizers of an event want from it - some events may be all about who's the best 'from scratch" craftsman, some may be about whose model is the best. I think that diversity of event styles is a good idea.

The existance of competitions where substantially prefabricated models may be entered is also probably a significant stimulant for such kits even existing - how many companies would be willing to spend the money developing incredibly accurate kits that we can enjoy, if such kits were not able to be entered in competition ?

BTW - how far do you take the concept of "the true modeler is the one who scratch builds" ? How many more classes should there be ? Fred built his model from someone else's plans ; Joe did his own plans and got CJM to custom make retracts for him ; Dave did his own plans, and also home-made his own retracts on a mill in his garage ; Tony did all of that AND built his own radio gear; Jeff got Aeroloft / Pro-Mark to print the decals for his award-winning finish, whereas Andy painted all of his markings himself..... how far do we go ?

Gordon

Gordon

I did say it would be difficult! And you have presented us with lots of reasons why.

Now then, which of these two models would you think had the higher static score. The very nice F16 with a lot of surface detail which is from the Avonds kit or the Skymasters Hawk which has very little surface detail. no cockpit detail and the builder couldn't even be bothered, or didn't have time to fill the mould gaps at the intakes, in fact the white paint is the gelcoat that the model comes with!

The F16 scored 872.3 points and the Hawk 1089.5 which, I must confess, I find hard to believe, so it seems you don't have to have a great model to do reasonably well!

The Hawk finished 20th out of 27 in open class BTW and the F16 19th due to better flight score.

John

A perfect jet must also have perfect documentation in order to achieve a perfect score. If the documentation is not up to the test, it will not matter how perfect the jet is, it will be downgraded.

Tim,
I feel a little awkward being lumped in like this.... I simply offered straight facts to answer the mans question, no opinions at all.

By the way, my entry was scratch build from my own design.

If you want an opinion... I am all for some recognition for scratch builders. (I finished 3rd in 'Masters' class in Top Gun this year, that is a designer class.)

David

doesnt a "special recognition" award cover this? If so, the simplest solution would be to suggest that the next WJM have this award available. Much more logical in my oppinion then to create a whole new class for those who scratch build. I agree that scratch building should be recognized as well, so those of you who feel strongly about it should make sure that there is some type of award in place in Ireland.

The key to success in static in the JWM is documentation, if you look at the score sheet 1/2 of the points is awarded by outline of the model only! they look at your model your model from about 20 feet. At this point no rivets marking or any other kind of details are awarded. 25 % of your model is again awarded on a distance of 20 feet also (markings, scale detail, etc) still no hi grade GFK will award better up to this stage as long as the scratch builder makes sure his documentation and overall appearance is accurate. The last 25% is awarded up close and there is where a high grade ARF (read money) will give you an advantage, not neccesary though a scratch builder could do just as good.

There were incredible beautiful models at the JWM with a low static score only because they had a poor documentation. The key to success is choose the right model, something close by so you can take all the photo's you need, get the proof of color, etc.

I agree on the fact that scratch building is more effort than an ARF but creating an extra class beside the 2 already present would only divide the competitors over an extra class is my opinion.

Dutchjet

mee too!!! did you see the Irish scratch built Plane that entered!!!!

Ooo, Dave - harsh

That is a really excellent suggestion. It doesn't have to be a special class just an award to a scratch built model flown in either class.

Perhaps I should donate a trophy for it. (How about the "Concorde Trophy" !)

Regards,

David Gladwin.

good to see so many people in agreement here i was worried i was gonna start a real fight. i am a modeller with small financial resources but i want to enter the next masters. i am currently working on a few models for the qualifying and my aim is to qualify for the team with my avro vulcan but i am woried that i will beaten by modellers of similar skill who could afford the best of everything. maybe all teams should enter say 1 or 2 models that are scratch built and and a class should be opened for this . i think there was about 10 scratch built models at the last masters and some of them looked outstanding like the learjet. some of the models that get good results are also from kits that are not fully scale. i think the scratchbuilt issue should be addressed or we should start out own scratch built masters. any sponsors???

Write to the [link=http://www.ijmc.net]IJMC[/link]. Make the proposal. Attend the next AGM. Dicuss the proposal. Vote on it.


If you are successfull the new rule will come into effect for the 2009 JWM. Any changes for 2007 have already been voted/made at the AGM in Hungary.

Having said that I have to agree that scratch building is a good thing and should be looked on with favour if done well.

Harsh, yes, but fair!!

surely it should be the Hill trophy judged by dave gladwin and guests.
ps do you take bribes

Hello from Spain:

I don´t know if the judges are so good or not, if the documentation is o.k., if the jets built for professional builders are best than the jets built for amateurs builders, but are things that everybody would think it.

The question is:

For the next Jet World Master would be best built up an model (own desing...), to buy a Kit or get the fantastic jet of a friend and tell that is mine? (I don´t know if the Mig-29 of this year is the same Mig that the 2 years ago, I don´t remember it and I think that the judges neither, I think ).

I hope not To offend to anybody, the Mig is omly an example.

Best regards.
______________________________________________

Hola desde España:

Yo no se si lo jueces son buenos o no, si la documentación es la apropiada, si los jets contruidos por profesionales son mejores que los construidos por aficionados, pero son cosas que deberiamos pensar.

La pregunta es:

Para el próximo Mundial de Jets, será mejor contruir un diseño propio , comprar un kit o llevar el de algún amigo y decir que es mio? (yo no se si el Mig-29 de este año es el mismo de hace 2 años, yo no lo recuerdo y pienso que los jueces tampoco, pienso).

Espero no ofender a nadie, lo del Mig es solo un ejemplo.

Saludos.

Hello:

Knock, knock ?????????

Nobody tell nothing ????????????


O.k. no more question.

Hi cm!

That MiG 29 in the picture belongs to Thomas Singer and was build by him and his father. Two years ago the rsin for that particular MiG was probably still seperated in two parts. What doyou want to say with that? thomas is definitely not one of those guys who have the money to buy a finished jwm-jet. He builds a second MiG for someone else to finance the project! At the german masters he flew a loaner from Stephan Völker, because his only scale jet was still on the bench.

To the static-judgement: The level was reached, because the level of the participating pilots was rising from wm to wm. And most of the guys in the IJMC who make the rules are pilots, wether in competition or not. The jet-scene has a very high standard, even compared to scale-competition. Why not?

Greetz,

David

this is an email i recieved when i contacted the IJMA about my suggestion.
Dear Mr. Hill
no, there is no difference between models from scratch or a low grade kit and a
kit with all details in. But - even the L-39 from Airworld is not ready for a
Jet World Masters because you have a lot to do correcting mistakes and changing
things like hatches at the wrong place, wrong flex hinges etc. The name of the
game is not the model but much more your documentation !!! The IJMC will work
out a lot of examples for that in the near future and we will publish all these
on the IJMC website.
In Hungary no major rule changes were decided but we will work out some tips for
static judging, as already mentioned.
Best regards
Winnie Ohlgart

I'd like to thank them for this informative email but i still think there should be extra points or seperate class for scratch built