New to jets. Would like to know which F-16 kit would be best investment to start with. IE: Byron , Yellowmfg. Top gun etc. Just trying to see what everyones opinions are.

The f-16 probably isn't the best choice for a first jet. Regardless of skills, the F-16 (all of them) have a few quirks.

Learning the power curve of turbines and the many facits of jets I woudl suggest a pretty simple to fly ship. IE Learn it all and have a fun time doing it.

One other thing. If you let price guide your choice the price may only be the start of yoru problems. Go to a meet and see what people are flying and what works. There is a reason for it Working that is.

You can get an ARF Kangaroo for around $900 + $400 for gear wheels and brakes. Add you radio gear and turbine and your off. That or a Hot Spot are probably your best bets to get into jets on a budget. Easy to fly airplanes too with great performance.

JB

$900 + $400 for gear what FOR THAT PRICE ONE can get a ducted fan jet and literally learn how to fly
lets see here
900+400=1300 plane no paint job or anything yet ,right?

2300, for a used and agood find on a jet engine what is that now O 3500 3600 WHAT

radio
eight servos @ around 100 buck a Price give or take 50

WHAT!!!!!! for a beginner

are you crazy

6 month Wait for turbine waver !!
what!!


are you talking about



save you a good 700 to 800 buck and buy you a DF jet first


unless i win the lottery i will stay with the fans

and if i do
ill have 10 jets ready to go so i can lean on

and that way i wont be dumping 4 grand on a jet that i most likely going to crash and completely burn

I believe that you are asking about ducted fans...right? I have to respectfully disagree that the F-16 overall is a poor choice for a first jet. Some are good for beginners---some are not. The Byron F-16 has a well known reputation as being one of the easiest F-16's to fly.

If I were you I would get an Avonds F-16. You can purchase it as a ducted fan or turbine version. If you get the ducted fan version you can buy a turbine conversion kit from Philip Avonds and go turbine later!!! This model uses a Dynamax fan unit. The Dynamax ducted fan hardware will be very easy to sell at a later date due to it's popularity. This model is very easy to build and fly. It uses "Tailerons" only for pitch and roll control. I have one now under construction.

Although the Byron F-16 is a very good flyer it is not a good choice to try to convert to turbine use. Additionally, the Avonds F-16 is very scale. Mr. Cherry---care to chime in here...

Kevin

If your not to fussy about scale (and by that I mean winning top gun) A Byron f-16 is probably the best to learn on - However probably any of the major manufactures are good (except bvm - his ship is 100% scale - even the airfoil, not that it flies bad but you should have time under your belt first). I learned on a byron f-16 and have to say it is the jet that almost everyone learned on. Just look at any mag with a jet fly in the 80's and early 90's, everyone had a byron of some kind and most were f-16's - there is a reason for that. First (partly because of the cheater hole) you can't stall the airplane. If you pull the power off and put the nose up it just mushes - if you are high speed and put it in a turn and pull full back on the elevator - it just slows down. Dosen't wiggle, waggle, or stall - just keeps going. If you do a paint job with a dark belly (eg. thunderbirds) you don't notice the cheater hole. When you learn to fly and you move on to a bvm for instance - you can use it as an everyday - go out and have fun plane and not worry about crashing $4000's. I saw a plane and a power package for sale here and you could have one going for about $1000!! Lands like a prop pattern plane - slow and easy. Not saying any of the others can't but i have routinly seen them land at a fast walk - NO KIDDING! haven't seen that with any others. True it does age faster but it's easy to repair and real easy to service.(No digging through equip and ducting - just invert and unbolt the engine) If you get one I can tell you some hints to make life easier for you - like engine reliabiliy and fuel systems. (had an f-16 for 8 years now and goes great, got an a-4 after and love it) How can you tell I love this plane!!

WOW. Why did yours take you 6 months? Mine took less that a month, not counting the week the papers sat here on my desk.

It took me a day to download the forms. I called and arranged the flight demo and turbine ground school, which was scheduled two weeks in the future. Two days later I had the forms finished. I did the ground test and flight demo at the same time. I sent in the paper work shortly thereafter. Once I sent in the paper work to the AMA, I got my official papers in about 10 days.

I started started in the end of September, and I received my papers last week. Just about a month.

I went with the Bobcat XL for my first turbine. I had flown one, and knew it handled well, and was well within my skill level. Add the fact that I was able to do spins, tumbles, and other aerobatics not typical of Jets with ease (I like aerobatics as one could tell from my hangar), and I was hooked. Depending on the pilots skill level, the Bobcat XL is a good beginner jet as well.

If the F-16 is the bird you want, I agree that the Byron F-16 is a great one to start with. I uses the 6 inch pusher fan which is great for grass fields and having bottom end power. It is not the fasted D/F out their but some pilots are not looking for speed.
If you are open to a F-15 or Mig-29 then look at the TGA kits. They can use the 6 inch pusher fan unit with its pros or they can use the Dynamax 5 in tractor fan units with its pros. These TGA kits are geared to the first time entry level beginner pilot and builder and so is the company. They are some of the easiest to fly jet kits and they are also being flown by using the elevators only for pitch and roll if you so desire. The total ready to fly package of the TGA kits are also a great value. Check out their kits on their website at www.tgajets.com.
When you are ready for a turbine, you can sell your TGA kit for money toward your next purchase. There is always another beginner pilot looking to purchase an ARF Topgun F-15. They go like hot cakes in the classifieds.
Good Luck
Paul

Thanks for the replys. I am definately going with ducted fan to start. I have someone that wants to sell me a Byron F-15 complete ready to build with everything for a good price just wondering if it is something I should pick up or pass by and learn on a F-16. Any thoughts.

If you are talking about the twin fan unit Byron F-15, you might want to go over what will be needed to make her ready to fly.
Couple that with the two power units to get set up and the other things associated with twins and you might want to wait on that for a later project.
If an F-15 is a possibility go with the TGA F-15, you will be glad you did.
I was just on their website www.tgajets.com and they have some fantastic Christmas specials on the F-15 and Mig-29.
Paul

I agree with Justin (Sandman), TGA F-15 is an excellent trainer jet, easier to fly than the Byron F16. Dont recommend the Byron F-15 as that is a twin engine bird and starting with a twin is not the route you want to go....

Todd

The Byron comes complete 2 power packages OS 77 Large heads fan units gear the whole caboose or so it seems .

If you want to pick up the kit (Byron f-15) for later - great, they are huge and fly well (great twin trainer), But the other guy's are right, starting with a twin is NOT the way to go. Twins can be a huge headache to get running just right, and if you havn't flown jets before you are going to have enough other things to worry about.DF's are a different breed start easy and simple, familurize yourself with their operation and flying and get some time under your belt. I know it's hard - I've been there (I'm sure we all have) but take it slow and you will not only save money but also have a more enjoyable experiance. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk.

Thanks . I believe I will start out like everyone here has suggested with a single engine ducted fan. On just another quick question is the Byron f-15 worth $1400 .with the following
Hi, Heres a Complete Package NIB Byron F-15 new in boxes untouched, Twin Ducted Fan Or Turbine Jet, Complete with 2 NIB never seen fuel Os 77 Large Head Ducted Fan motors rated @12.5lbs of Thrust each! New Fans,New #5 pipes, Custom Robart Rotating Retracts...Straight Tread Tires,Fuel Tanks,Decales, Operating Speed Brake ect, all hardware needed.

You may want to really think about any Byron products. While they led the way many years ago, by todays standards they are quite inferior. There fan system is simple, but a big mess to run and the lack of parts is a problem. There are a lot of other fan products which are more relable and up to date.

Remember the money you may save at the purchase will be short lived!!!!

I speak from lots of experience. Good and bad !!!

I think that's a really good price. I'm a big Byron fan and still have most of their sales stuff. These are the next to last factroy prices - I know this stuff was more when Byron went under (keep in mind this is going back a few years)

FACTORY PRICES
last time Byron offered OS77 Byrojet packages $334.50 each
F-15 kit $899.00
Main retracts $289.85
straight tread tires $27.30
Nose retract $120.85
Speed Brake kit $120.85
Pneumatic support equip $41.20
Gear brakes $84.85

You do the math!

AH....... I miss the good old days when this stuff was actually affordable!!

I happen to disagree. Parts are plentiful as TGA sells them, you can get them on e-bay and Iron Bay sells them. They are no more messy than any other df to run, and if you think that you have to have internal ducting and carbon fiber airframes to have a reliable product thats just not true. I did say that they would not stand up as long without some maintance - but my f-16 is still going strong. The size and slower speed makes these jets the way to go and still the most forgiving. Why is it that something that was top of the line yesterday has to be inferior today because it doesn't use the latest and greatest technology (My 1962 Cessna 150 is a dream - sure it's not a glass cockpit B767 But it does the job really reliably and economiclly)

You guys are great. I appreciate all the info so far. I happen to agree that if it does what you want that is all that counts. Maybe I am reading into one of your answers but when you said internal ducting were you making a reference as to the Byron does not have internal ducting on that particular model? I am assuming you were just generalizing . I have never seen a Byron F-15 so I do not know whether it is internal or external ducting. I would hope it is internal for appearance.

The ONLY internal ducting any Byron Kit has/had is the Lexan thrust tube. The fan units just set inside the aircraft and blow the thrust out the back. If you don't like the mess of the Byron, simply attach a sillicon tube to the exhaust of the engine/s and rout it outside the airframe. Simple and clean.

Sorry Duane - I should have clarified better - But Terry is right, all Byron jet kits have no INTAKE ducting due to the fact that the equip is in the way (part of the simplicity - no special fuel tanks etc).Byron's philosiphy is that an uninterupted exhaust flow is more important for higher thrust and better efficiancy (and they are right) however intake air is disturbed and hence part of the reason they have cheater holes. They used to sell conversion kits for the F-16 for a dynamax fan, but they weren't very popular and the aircraft is a little on the big side. Got off quicker with the high static thrust of the Byrofan.

At $1400 with retracts and fan/engine - If you don't buy it, I will And I don't need another airplane. Definitely worth buying and saving for later - or building while you learn on whatever single you end up with.

The .77s should be traded out for .91s though - I think it would be a fine first turbine as well - converted to single turbine power. I haven't flown any turbine though(full disclosure). It would probably take a bit of wing & tail strengthening for that.

Like you dont have enough unfinished projects already
When's that hornet gonna fly? You really need to come out and get some stick time on the BC John, your gonna love this plane!
TTYS....
Todd

Dude! I just got my Lassek A-10 in. Like, 20 minutes ago! Whooohooo!

I got a bunch of stuff that's gonna go on the block for finance this baby. You still got that 750? What about Phil?

Anyway, I been out of town too much- but I'm about ready to put the wing servos in the -18. Prob'ly fly right after Thanksgiving.