Safety Matters
08-25-2008, 02:45 PM
#351
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Chris, I agree with all you say EXCEPT the compensation issue. If it can be shown that failure was caused by inadequate construction at the factory then full compensation should be paid. That alone may well concentrate the minds of the producers AND their reps. who may well have legal liabilty, including that suffered by any third party, if they have been involved in the sale.
The crash at Cottesmore showed that sensible flight patterns can minimise the risk and I have long been a vocal advocate of all flying, except T/O and landing, being on the far side of the runway and absolutely never closer than the centre line of a standard runway, assuming pilots are at the edge of the runway.
Discussing this issue at the Nats. yesterday, it is clear that some of us most certainly share John's concern about bigger and bigger engines being installed in easy to "assemble" ARTFs and being flown by modellers of relatively little skill and experience. Such misuse is a very big threat to the hobby. We dismiss the threat at our peril.
Perhaps of equal or even more concern is the rather dismissive attitude to safety in model jet flying as shown by the small response to this thread, such a contrast to all other branches of aviation, both sporting and professional, and the total lack of reponse from anyone connected with C-ARF, manufacturers of the airframe concerned. Speaks volumes.
Finally, I mentioned the Hawk crash at Cranwell last week. I just goes to show that air safety matters can come VERY close to home. In the back seat of the Hawk was Dan Platts, the RAF engineer who arranges our JMA meeting s at RAF Scampton. He ejected at ground level and survived with, I believe, minor injuries. I am sure we all wish him well.
Regards,
David Gladwin.
The crash at Cottesmore showed that sensible flight patterns can minimise the risk and I have long been a vocal advocate of all flying, except T/O and landing, being on the far side of the runway and absolutely never closer than the centre line of a standard runway, assuming pilots are at the edge of the runway.
Discussing this issue at the Nats. yesterday, it is clear that some of us most certainly share John's concern about bigger and bigger engines being installed in easy to "assemble" ARTFs and being flown by modellers of relatively little skill and experience. Such misuse is a very big threat to the hobby. We dismiss the threat at our peril.
Perhaps of equal or even more concern is the rather dismissive attitude to safety in model jet flying as shown by the small response to this thread, such a contrast to all other branches of aviation, both sporting and professional, and the total lack of reponse from anyone connected with C-ARF, manufacturers of the airframe concerned. Speaks volumes.
Finally, I mentioned the Hawk crash at Cranwell last week. I just goes to show that air safety matters can come VERY close to home. In the back seat of the Hawk was Dan Platts, the RAF engineer who arranges our JMA meeting s at RAF Scampton. He ejected at ground level and survived with, I believe, minor injuries. I am sure we all wish him well.
Regards,
David Gladwin.
08-25-2008, 04:12 PM
#353
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Can't believe I was chatting to Dan just last month. It was great talking to him about the experiences being in the back seat of the Hawk but I guess the risk was always there.
As you say Paul, thank you Martin Baker. I am sure his wife and three daughters are thankfull as well.
Geoff.
As you say Paul, thank you Martin Baker. I am sure his wife and three daughters are thankfull as well.
Geoff.
08-25-2008, 04:29 PM
#354
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Gentleman, a small issue wich I suppose the RCU staff could fix : This thread was originally named as "2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash", later renamed to "Safety matters".
The problem is that anyone who goes to RCU´s main page sees the original title when somebody updates this thread and associates it to R/C jets. Some people may be under the impression that we must be serial killers, with dozens of kills every weekend or so, Instead of reminding the giant gasser slow flying bipe wich caused the accident, as well the heli pilot cited on it too.
I am not asking to this thread to be removed from here,but the title fixed, as we don´t need bad publicity, as I am sure nobody here deserve it.
Thanks, Enrique
The problem is that anyone who goes to RCU´s main page sees the original title when somebody updates this thread and associates it to R/C jets. Some people may be under the impression that we must be serial killers, with dozens of kills every weekend or so, Instead of reminding the giant gasser slow flying bipe wich caused the accident, as well the heli pilot cited on it too.
I am not asking to this thread to be removed from here,but the title fixed, as we don´t need bad publicity, as I am sure nobody here deserve it.
Thanks, Enrique
08-25-2008, 04:40 PM
#355
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: David Gladwin
Finally, I mentioned the Hawk crash at Cranwell last week. I just goes to show that air safety matters can come VERY close to home. In the back seat of the Hawk was Dan Platts, the RAF engineer who arranges our JMA meeting s at RAF Scampton. He ejected at ground level and survived with, I believe, minor injuries. I am sure we all wish him well.
Finally, I mentioned the Hawk crash at Cranwell last week. I just goes to show that air safety matters can come VERY close to home. In the back seat of the Hawk was Dan Platts, the RAF engineer who arranges our JMA meeting s at RAF Scampton. He ejected at ground level and survived with, I believe, minor injuries. I am sure we all wish him well.
Rgds,
Dick
08-25-2008, 05:09 PM
#356
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Cheers to Dan. Nothing beats training and procedures. He obviously kept a head about him all the way.
The compensation issue is a difficult one. I'm all for what will work if safety is enhanced. The litigation required to resolve a suit could make things ugly unless the company volunteered. Would manufacturers step up? And if not could they be made to? How do we manage the oppurtnist once the precedent is set? I do see how it could work in the case of an isolated defect from a reputable company. On the other hand, the makers of the low quality marginally engineered products, may find it cheaper to offer the replacement rather than change how they do business.
As the numbers of people flying jet models; including high performance EDF increases, the fairly low injury or near injury accident rate may also increase. How much of the increase will be due to failures in the product? My guess is, it will depend on what the jet market is willing to put up with. If there are enough buyers in the market that are willing to take a chance on poor quality products to cut costs, we could see an increase.
Your concerns with apathy, larger numbers of cheaper ARFs, and more pilots that may not know what the airframe limits or structures can handle, may be the combination that will eventually make the sport unpleasant. We risk elitism if we don't welcome participants and new companies, but is there a point where a stabilized number of quality pilots, and quality products should win over larger numbers and volumes of brands? I don't have the answer. I'll bet some industry leaders have an opinion though.
Wasn't there a discussion just like this when the park flyer market exploded?
Chris
The compensation issue is a difficult one. I'm all for what will work if safety is enhanced. The litigation required to resolve a suit could make things ugly unless the company volunteered. Would manufacturers step up? And if not could they be made to? How do we manage the oppurtnist once the precedent is set? I do see how it could work in the case of an isolated defect from a reputable company. On the other hand, the makers of the low quality marginally engineered products, may find it cheaper to offer the replacement rather than change how they do business.
As the numbers of people flying jet models; including high performance EDF increases, the fairly low injury or near injury accident rate may also increase. How much of the increase will be due to failures in the product? My guess is, it will depend on what the jet market is willing to put up with. If there are enough buyers in the market that are willing to take a chance on poor quality products to cut costs, we could see an increase.
Your concerns with apathy, larger numbers of cheaper ARFs, and more pilots that may not know what the airframe limits or structures can handle, may be the combination that will eventually make the sport unpleasant. We risk elitism if we don't welcome participants and new companies, but is there a point where a stabilized number of quality pilots, and quality products should win over larger numbers and volumes of brands? I don't have the answer. I'll bet some industry leaders have an opinion though.
Wasn't there a discussion just like this when the park flyer market exploded?
Chris
09-03-2008, 10:19 AM
#357
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
I have always been a Jet Fan. I am going to be building a ShokJet top winger soon. A few friends are avid Jet guys.
Last Year there was a spectacular BVM Ultra Bandit Explosion/crash at Fox Valley Aero Culb in St. Charles Illinois at a popular Jet Rally.
A high speed pass and disintegration of the airframe. No one was hurt.
The video by various spectators has never been seen.
It seems to me there was a concerted effort to NOT allow the tapes to be made public. Conspiracy theories have abounded here, Seems dishonest to me, however, I understand that speculation of the cause was what feared the most. I am not buying that fact.
While this incident is locally famous, I have not read much about it, so if there was a cover up , it worked. Still , locally it is talked about all the time. No one likes thier dirty laundry Monday morning quaterbacked, and a good joib of making the tapes disappear was done.
At the recent FVAC rally we were allowed to sit at the end of the runway less than what seemed a safe distance under our canopy. Approaches by some of the jets had us looking for a safe exit route out of the canopy..... really the only scary scary one was a prop plane that was allowed to fly.
Perceptions are everything though. I know the Safety Officer and told him how we felt, and he duly noted it.
We need to be upfront with ALL failures, no matter the consequences or pride. My Shokjet will be flown only after many checkouts by pilots I will defer to for thier knowledge. This is in the best interests of keeping our hobby as little governemt regulated/banned as possible. If we don't self police, we will lose our hobby.
The FVAC Ultra Bandit Crash and it's non-discussion/disclosure is one example of selective reporting , in my opinion. I would stand to be corrected. It sure makes great fodder for speculation at all of our "crash coffee clatches' at the field.
Last Year there was a spectacular BVM Ultra Bandit Explosion/crash at Fox Valley Aero Culb in St. Charles Illinois at a popular Jet Rally.
A high speed pass and disintegration of the airframe. No one was hurt.
The video by various spectators has never been seen.
It seems to me there was a concerted effort to NOT allow the tapes to be made public. Conspiracy theories have abounded here, Seems dishonest to me, however, I understand that speculation of the cause was what feared the most. I am not buying that fact.
While this incident is locally famous, I have not read much about it, so if there was a cover up , it worked. Still , locally it is talked about all the time. No one likes thier dirty laundry Monday morning quaterbacked, and a good joib of making the tapes disappear was done.
At the recent FVAC rally we were allowed to sit at the end of the runway less than what seemed a safe distance under our canopy. Approaches by some of the jets had us looking for a safe exit route out of the canopy..... really the only scary scary one was a prop plane that was allowed to fly.
Perceptions are everything though. I know the Safety Officer and told him how we felt, and he duly noted it.
We need to be upfront with ALL failures, no matter the consequences or pride. My Shokjet will be flown only after many checkouts by pilots I will defer to for thier knowledge. This is in the best interests of keeping our hobby as little governemt regulated/banned as possible. If we don't self police, we will lose our hobby.
The FVAC Ultra Bandit Crash and it's non-discussion/disclosure is one example of selective reporting , in my opinion. I would stand to be corrected. It sure makes great fodder for speculation at all of our "crash coffee clatches' at the field.
12-12-2008, 04:53 PM
#358
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Over on another thread there is a video of jet flying in Kuwait. Great aircraft handling and everyone who has commented thinks its great. However take a look at just how close to the pilot , photographer and others the jets are being flown in both straight and turning flight. If and I repeat IF the camera is not distorting things it all looks absurdly, dangerously close.
On the tape it says the flying is totally legal in Kuwait, (sure as hell isn't in UK and Australia) suggesting they realize it is not good, or a "normal" standard of operating.
What these guys do in the privacy of their own field is their business but to promote this sort of flying on RCU and Youtube will almost certainly lead to others, less skilled, trying to emulate with the inevitable results.
Frankly I don't care just how skilled these pilots are this sort of flying reflects exceptionally bad judgement, total elimination of margins for error, and sets a rotten example, and to promote it in the public domain and applaud it seems less than sensible to say the least. Frankly, I would have hoped that pilots with exceptional handling skills would have matched it with a similar standard of sensible operating practices.
Comment ?
Regards,
David Gladwin.
On the tape it says the flying is totally legal in Kuwait, (sure as hell isn't in UK and Australia) suggesting they realize it is not good, or a "normal" standard of operating.
What these guys do in the privacy of their own field is their business but to promote this sort of flying on RCU and Youtube will almost certainly lead to others, less skilled, trying to emulate with the inevitable results.
Frankly I don't care just how skilled these pilots are this sort of flying reflects exceptionally bad judgement, total elimination of margins for error, and sets a rotten example, and to promote it in the public domain and applaud it seems less than sensible to say the least. Frankly, I would have hoped that pilots with exceptional handling skills would have matched it with a similar standard of sensible operating practices.
Comment ?
Regards,
David Gladwin.
12-13-2008, 07:21 AM
#360
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: David Gladwin
Over on another thread there is a video of jet flying in Kuwait. Great aircraft handling and everyone who has commented thinks its great. However take a look at just how close to the pilot , photographer and others the jets are being flown in both straight and turning flight. If and I repeat IF the camera is not distorting things it all looks absurdly, dangerously close.
On the tape it says the flying is totally legal in Kuwait, (sure as hell isn't in UK and Australia) suggesting they realize it is not good, or a "normal" standard of operating.
What these guys do in the privacy of their own field is their business but to promote this sort of flying on RCU and Youtube will almost certainly lead to others, less skilled, trying to emulate with the inevitable results.
Frankly I don't care just how skilled these pilots are this sort of flying reflects exceptionally bad judgement, total elimination of margins for error, and sets a rotten example, and to promote it in the public domain and applaud it seems less than sensible to say the least. Frankly, I would have hoped that pilots with exceptional handling skills would have matched it with a similar standard of sensible operating practices.
Comment ?
Regards,
David Gladwin.
Over on another thread there is a video of jet flying in Kuwait. Great aircraft handling and everyone who has commented thinks its great. However take a look at just how close to the pilot , photographer and others the jets are being flown in both straight and turning flight. If and I repeat IF the camera is not distorting things it all looks absurdly, dangerously close.
On the tape it says the flying is totally legal in Kuwait, (sure as hell isn't in UK and Australia) suggesting they realize it is not good, or a "normal" standard of operating.
What these guys do in the privacy of their own field is their business but to promote this sort of flying on RCU and Youtube will almost certainly lead to others, less skilled, trying to emulate with the inevitable results.
Frankly I don't care just how skilled these pilots are this sort of flying reflects exceptionally bad judgement, total elimination of margins for error, and sets a rotten example, and to promote it in the public domain and applaud it seems less than sensible to say the least. Frankly, I would have hoped that pilots with exceptional handling skills would have matched it with a similar standard of sensible operating practices.
Comment ?
Regards,
David Gladwin.
12-13-2008, 02:47 PM
#361
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
If it wasn't David S flying those jets the board would be all over that like stink on ****. I don't know him and I hear he is an exceptional individual and really cool guy. Everyone makes mistakes though. Maybe they should edit that part out of the video. Some of the younger pilots probably look up to DS as a role model.
12-13-2008, 05:06 PM
#362
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
The very best pilots make mistakes, rarely, if ever, have 100% perfect judgement and equipment fails, even Ultra Bandit noses can fail with catastrophic consequences, as we have seen.
What I saw on those videos was some of, if not THE, best aircraft manoevering I have ever seen. It was also, in my view, the most irresponsibly stupid, undisciplined, and dangerous jet model flying I have ever seen in my 50 years of modelling and would NEVER be tolerated in the UK or Australia and probably most other countries too. Guess why !
The very best jet pilots in the world have a duty to the hobby, its well-being and very future, to demonstrate and maintain the very best operating standards to match, whenever and wherever they fly.
That is exactly why the very best pilots in the fullsize world, Red Arrows, etc, ALWAYS fly to the very highest standards and NEVER bust the carefully laid down parameters within which they must operate. Seems these guys know, or think they know, better than the professionals.
If this sort of jet flying continues, or worse is copied, then our future, if we have one, may be bleak.
Please discuss, I am just off for another week of teaching air cadets to fly gliders to military standards of discipline and safety, I look forward to seeing the reaction when I return.
Regards,
David Gladwin.
What I saw on those videos was some of, if not THE, best aircraft manoevering I have ever seen. It was also, in my view, the most irresponsibly stupid, undisciplined, and dangerous jet model flying I have ever seen in my 50 years of modelling and would NEVER be tolerated in the UK or Australia and probably most other countries too. Guess why !
The very best jet pilots in the world have a duty to the hobby, its well-being and very future, to demonstrate and maintain the very best operating standards to match, whenever and wherever they fly.
That is exactly why the very best pilots in the fullsize world, Red Arrows, etc, ALWAYS fly to the very highest standards and NEVER bust the carefully laid down parameters within which they must operate. Seems these guys know, or think they know, better than the professionals.
If this sort of jet flying continues, or worse is copied, then our future, if we have one, may be bleak.
Please discuss, I am just off for another week of teaching air cadets to fly gliders to military standards of discipline and safety, I look forward to seeing the reaction when I return.
Regards,
David Gladwin.
12-14-2008, 01:56 AM
#363
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Some amazingly talented flying in the video, but its sad to see that top pilots get bored if there's no element of danger present. For average pilots jet flying is exiting enough without it. The Australian F3D world champ used to practice just like that, flying towards him as the 1st pylon. Flying extremely low. I've flown pylon in the past and seen models flying close enough. Maybe everything should not be filmed. TP.
12-22-2008, 08:43 AM
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
During my last visit to Singapore, I was told that RC Jet flying is no longer done there since a few months. ("Being banned" would not be correct).
The jet pilots were flying in one of the very scarce areas on the island where they actually could : on a few streets in an industrial zone (Tuas area), between the street lights on an active road.
I've been there one Sunday to watch them.
Many weeks after my visit, one pilot crashed his jet on the maiden flight (an F-86) and it went through the roof of a factory building nearby and caused fire. Everyone ran off before police or firemen arrived and since then, the police often patrols there to find out who was the owner. Of course, nobody flies jets in Singapore anymore ; they all cross the bridge and go to an airfield in Malaysia now.
I do not know any more details (I certainly do not know who it was) ; rest assured Asians are very discrete when it comes to such kind of information and many people were even utmost surprised that I had heard about the incident.
Nicolas.
The jet pilots were flying in one of the very scarce areas on the island where they actually could : on a few streets in an industrial zone (Tuas area), between the street lights on an active road.
I've been there one Sunday to watch them.
Many weeks after my visit, one pilot crashed his jet on the maiden flight (an F-86) and it went through the roof of a factory building nearby and caused fire. Everyone ran off before police or firemen arrived and since then, the police often patrols there to find out who was the owner. Of course, nobody flies jets in Singapore anymore ; they all cross the bridge and go to an airfield in Malaysia now.
I do not know any more details (I certainly do not know who it was) ; rest assured Asians are very discrete when it comes to such kind of information and many people were even utmost surprised that I had heard about the incident.
Nicolas.
12-22-2008, 08:48 AM
#365
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Here is a link to a video made in Tuas ; I do not remember one single building standing close to the spot. Call it Murphy's Law...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZtEI...e=channel_page
Nicolas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZtEI...e=channel_page
Nicolas.
03-05-2009, 02:04 PM
#367
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
I'm with bevar
Don't get me wrong safety is important. Several years ago a hockey fan in my city was killed by an errant puck. Do you think they should have arrested the player? Stopped hockey games? Make all fans watch on closed circuit TV?
NO. Accidents happen. they happen in all sorts of ways and in all sorts of activities. The sky is not falling guys.
Don't get me wrong safety is important. Several years ago a hockey fan in my city was killed by an errant puck. Do you think they should have arrested the player? Stopped hockey games? Make all fans watch on closed circuit TV?
NO. Accidents happen. they happen in all sorts of ways and in all sorts of activities. The sky is not falling guys.
04-22-2009, 09:39 PM
#368
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
I don't think it was a jet or they would have noticed
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.as...ntentID=136680
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.as...ntentID=136680
04-27-2009, 01:08 PM
#369
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Peter, the model did not hit the full size jet:
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/play...772&ch=8103076
However, the people involved are complete idiots. I certainly hope they do get jail time.
...jim
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/play...772&ch=8103076
However, the people involved are complete idiots. I certainly hope they do get jail time.
...jim
05-22-2009, 07:38 PM
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RE: Safety Matters
Wow this is a great reminder of how important safety is and how terrible things can happen. I'll never forget the time I was flying a Golberg Skylark (?) by myself and was shot down out of the blue. I was making a fairly fast and low pass when all-of-the-sudden the plane rolled over and went squarely into the ground... only 35 ft. away from me! Just think what would have happened if it would happened sooner and rolled in my direction! I could have been killed. The next week watching a GIANT scale Extra go through it's paces at a fun fly was fun, but at the same time alittle unerving.
God bless the families of the dead and the injured.
09-21-2009, 10:52 PM
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RE: Safety Matters
Unfortunately I have just been informed that another r/c fatal accident happened in Brazil: A simple .40 glow engine trainer hit in the head the president of Araraquara´s r/c modeling club in Sao Paulo, Milton Aliberti wich was a very experienced modeler and a nice person too. By some unknown reason he crossed the runway at the precise moment of the landing of this small plane. Hard to believe that this is the second time that this kind of fatality happened here, again with a small trainer aircraft and this time with such a wary modeler as a victim.
May his soul rest in peace.
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u627069.shtml
May his soul rest in peace.
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u627069.shtml
10-17-2009, 05:19 AM
#372
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
I ruffled a few feathers recently after a large, powerful heavy model crashed in a fireball, caused it was suggested by the luminary owner/pilot by the failure of its SINGLE battery. I suggested flying such a model on a single battery was dumb, ( in fact I believe it to be dangerously irresponsible) , when we all know that failure of a single battery should be a non-event, the auxiliary or standby battery takes the load. We have known this in fullsize aviation since Pontious was a Pilate.
I got the usual abuse from the usual muppets for speaking up so may I suggest you/they take a look at the latest post on the BVM site, "AirShowitis", Bob hits the nail RIGHT on the head. If we carry on as we are it will almost certainly end in tears and more.
Regards,
David Gladwin.
I got the usual abuse from the usual muppets for speaking up so may I suggest you/they take a look at the latest post on the BVM site, "AirShowitis", Bob hits the nail RIGHT on the head. If we carry on as we are it will almost certainly end in tears and more.
Regards,
David Gladwin.
10-17-2009, 05:28 PM
#373
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Air Showitis
By: Bob Violett
October 2009
A potentially dangerous affliction.
Definition: You feel that you must out perform the pilot and plane that proceeded you so that you receive more applause and adulation from the spectators. Therefore, you push the model past previously tested speeds and "G" forces in unpracticed maneuvers.
Discussion: Some famous pilots are often as guilty as those who want to become famous. The spectators that you are trying to impress have no idea that they are being exposed to a possible disaster. They are ignorant of the absolute limits of the machine and what could happen if a structural or electrical failure occurs. They brought their kids to be entertained, not unknowingly threatened.
Disaster happens occasionally in full scale airshows even though pilot proficiency and airframe integrity are closely regulated. During the past several years, I have seen multiple near disasters involving Jet Model Airplanes that suffered at the hands of pilots afflicted with "Air Showitis". So far, we have been fortunate. Common sense and responsibility should dictate that a show pilot practice his routine in the absence of spectators. Equipping the model with Telemetry devices will give the pilot real information about the model and its limitations.
With this knowledge, he can perform responsibly within the known limits and not pose a risk to innocent bystanders. After all, spectators can't recognize a 10-20 mph increase or an extra 2 G's, yet just those extras could be the infamous "straw".
We have been lucky so far, but it would be folly to keep depending on just luck. If professionalism is practiced, it will be recognized and appreciated.
10-17-2009, 05:50 PM
#374
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Yeah, in the Space Shuttle Program, we call that "Go Fever"!!!
My most famous case of that was at Mississippi Afterburner '03. And BV was standing right there watching!!! Just glad I did not have to pull his shoe out of my a-s after I landed a burnt Isobar!!!!
My most famous case of that was at Mississippi Afterburner '03. And BV was standing right there watching!!! Just glad I did not have to pull his shoe out of my a-s after I landed a burnt Isobar!!!!