Antony,

I feel this thread is a sub thread from Sidenote about safety and jet flying...Look again at this video.... at 1:07 seconds into it you see what Shok commented on and at 1:38 seconds we see just how close the crowd was.

http://www.uflyhobbies.com/videos/FLJ-06/mig29.wmv

What would have been the consequences at 1:07 seconds if servo failure occurred... we are now being told this is what the "Technical problem" was that caused the Hawks sad demise.

All flight routines at public displays must take into account the possibility of "Technical problems" and/or possible pilot error. If, God forbid anything had gone wrong at 1:07... it would not have been possible to crash that plane "..away from spectators out in a field"

This event in Majorca has highlighted the fact that this can and does happen to the best Pilots and planes in the world.



David.

David:

We are discussing two separate occurrences. This thread has thus far only referred to the Hawk crash, which from reports to date was a non-issue from a safety standpoint. The Mig flight is another story.

I am wary of going down the path of investigating every model crash under the pretense of garnering more information that will improve safety. We don't need to go this overboard, in my opinion.

Antony

Antony,

No one is suggesting that we investigate Every model crash.

But as players in the Major league of our hobby, The Jet league, we must look at, or be seen to be looking at all Incidents at publicly attended events that we offer up.

Rest assured others are watching us.

If we dont govern ourselves in an appropriate manner, they will do it for us.

David.

Opppppppppppppppssssssssssssss........just fixed it. You got me on this one bud.

In my opinion, the only certainty of any radio controlled airplane is that if they are flown regulary, at some time they are going to re-kit themselves, be it pilot error (most likely) or equipment failure, if you cannot take that, then the best thing to do with then is hang them from the bedroom ceiling and stop having a go at people who have been unfortunate, because your turn will come, of that i am sure

we can all work on doing our best to maximize safety, but nothing is 100% .. accidents happen, that’s why they are called "accidents". If you are all SOOOO safety conscious, then don't go to the race track, or better yet, avoid those dangerous hockey and baseball games ( man, there is a possibility a puck or ball may kill you ) , actually why not just never leave your houses , its safer there .. actually, maybe that’s not a good idea either because houses do burn every once in a while ...

bottom line we must all practice safety and be supportive towards each other in progressing this hobby. I’m tired of all the guys who just themselves started out on their baby boomerangs and facets and now constantly whining and acting all condescending over others (many of whom have more experience than any of you ever will ..) like they are some sort of jet gods, … ever wonder why so many of the really experienced modelers just don’t even bother with RCU anymore ?? this place has become a bunch of old decrepit whining women !!

Wojtek

maybe if he didn't fly it he might not of crashed it?

in a lot fewer words, thats what i was pretty much trying to say

Just call me Granny baby! Now where did I put my facet. LOL!

Joking aside, you are right, safety is everyone's concern. If you are out in the desert with no one and nothing around, then the safety threshold is lower; however, if you are flying at a meet that is attended by the public or even at an AMA field, then the safety threshold is considerably higher and your self restraint and vigilance must be adjusted accordingly. One would think this is common sense, but unfortunately some people get carried away or wrapped up in the moment or whatever. That's where a safety officer or a CD or even just a concerned modeler needs to step in with either a gentle reminder or a reprimand or in the worst case scenario to ground the pilot.

We also have to remember the effect an accident can have on public perception (and on our ability to secure/retain flying sites). Even if we are out in the boonies and some random person sees a turbine plane go splat and boom (or any plane crash in spectacular fashion), he takes that impression away with him and probably passes it on to others. I had a demo pilot at an event I host crash (far away from anyone or anything) due lost signal then PCM lockout, and the plane exploded on impact. The event had run like clockwork to that point, there were no safety problems, the pilots had interacted really well with the public, people were enjoying themselves -- but the lasting impression was that crash. I still hear about it and it was years ago.

You guys get the idea. Well I have a plane to work on, so later all.

Antony

I just want to add that "Mallorca Jets Incident" is not really a great title for a thread. Just does not "flow".

But "Incident At Mallorca" is a real zinger, dynamic and dramatic.

Try it out:

"Incident At Mallorca": The ripping new novel by Alistair MacLean....

or

"Incident At Mallorca"...starring Sean Connery as Inspector Majors.

Even better?

RENDEZVOUS At Mallorca. Now THAT's a keeper.

lol

I was wondering how long it will take b/4 ET engages.

I've been too busy as of late, not much time for modelleing, alas.

.. Or Robert Ludlum's ..." The Majorca Conspiracy ".

Sorry Woj I see your post as THE most counterproductive one I have ever seen in the matter of improving safety. I have not yet seen any new jet fliers writing on RCU as "Gods" and sugesting that WE are all whining old women is really a long, long, way off the mark, and stifling debate achieves nothing positive.

In the airline industry we encourage EVERYONE to make a contribution to safety from the cleaners right up to the CEO and we certainly do not mock or deride, ANYONE, regardless of inexperience, because they make an input however impractical or irrelevant it turns out to be, in fact we go to great lengths to encourage people to speak up. Safety is not a bolt-on extra, or afterthought, involving only a few it is a vein which runs through the whole operation, and it is everyone's responsibility however inexperienced. Discouraging or deriding newcomers is fatal.

Actually the departure of SOME "really experienced" guys who do regard themselves as the "Gods" is no bad thing. I had one luminary on RCU who told me that because he had 400 flights on his BobCat and I had only 200 I did not have the real world experience to discuss and investigate the BobCat elevator problem, and should keep my opinions to myself. The fact that I have two Bobcats (love them ) and that I used to teach control and stability, amongst other things, to RAF flying instuctors in a real jet apparently doesn't count !

I am getting older (but definitely not a woman or a whiner, ( but totally intolerant of people who do stupid things with aerolanes of any sort) ) and I think its a privelege. Too many of my military flying colleagues did not get to my age, being killed at a much younger age in flying accidents. When I started flying, in 1962, the RAF lost an aircraft every few days, now its a rare ocurrence, even allowing for the reduction in the size of the fleet, safety has improved enormously through constant, constant, effort.

............and yes we all know that we cannot eliminate accidents (although an editorial in a recent Air Transport magazine does not eliminate the possibilty of achieving a zero accident rate with modern Jet Transports) but we can manage and minimise the risk whilst continuing our operations.

So speak up guys , all of you, regardless of experience, I certainly want to hear your views an inputs even if it is "just " a Facet or a Bommerang you fly.

Regards, David Gladwin.

How do your wife and daughters let you get by with such a poorly veiled sexist comment.......all the family gals in my life remind me "Just remember, you have to go to sleep sometime" so best behave.......

Tom

Simple Tom, Wilma, julia and Claire all understand that I would never dare raise myself to their level !! In my family we are all equal but the ladies are more equal than me !

Regards,

David Gladwin.

Woj,

Actually this is not true, in the case of a house fire, something will have gone wrong, of course not deliberate or intentional, but it will have gone wrong. Same as a road vehicle or aircraft crash of any description, something will have gone wrong. In the UK Road accidents have now been redefined as "collisions" because something or someone was at fault, perhaps this is because we are now far more litigious than ever before, but whilst deliberate acts are a different type of collision, there is no such thing as an accident.[:-] Incidentally there are fewer house fires now than 10 years ago, the Fire Service in the UK claim that's down to education and prevention as well as ensuring people have an escape route in mind, safety features??

I have admired your aircraft, willingness to speak frankly and have a great deal of respect for you from everything I have seen from here. But joking it is and is so many words too, but you suggest in one of your posts that your next crash is about due. So from that and you statement about inevitability, you would suggest crashes are inevitable. Pragmatically I agree with you, in the model world the quality of equipment we use, the materials and our building and assembly skills are variable. We as model pilots do not have to amount X number of flying hours before we can get a licence or progress to another type of aircraft, of various capabilities, so something will slip through the net , equipment failure, pilot mistake, external influence and at some point and bang, wallop the old wallet gets hurt.

If that's the case, then we should always ensure we fly with a "margin for error" so when that wheel comes off, we take it on board as part of the rigours and frustrations of this hobby. Yeah sure, full size will crash too despite best efforts, and that is the nub, if we make best efforts, than I beleive as you have suggested all we can do is minimalise the occurences. However if we do this in isolation of safer flying practices, we still have the rogue element that could cause the injuries death and destruction of peoples lives. Remorse does not comfort.

I am new still and hope I am not whinging having the record stuck, being a fish wife or whatever, but if that's what it takes to get the message through then call me Old Mrs Gazzer.

Most of the current safety debates were inaugarted following the death of 2 people, is it really a problem less than a month since they lost their lives, to keep the thoughts active?

Old Mrs Gazzer

Ah!!..............Finally!

A RCU thread is just not complete until ET chimes in with his literary prowess and/or David Gladwin reminds us ONCE AGAIN about his Commercial Avaition as well as Military Aviation expliots............[X(][X(]


A very wise model airplane flier once told me, "Ya fly 'em, Ya break 'em if Ya can't afford it...........Get out!.

Tailwinds,

John

I agree,

of course accuracy is one of the best prevention. But you can be sure, once in your hobby "career" u will crash a plane. Just be prepared and do everything to avoid to harm people.

The rest is speculative dings and dongs and bling bling!

They are just toys and toys will break sooner or later. Nothing to do with real aircrafts even if we try to give this picture that we are "the best of the hobby" while using turbines. Still they are just toys.

And as long there are no defined quality standards we will crash them. To many individual parameters left.

There is no quality standard for:
radios TX/RX
Engines
Servos
Glue (except aircraft epoxy)
Composite parts

maybe for batteries?

So just keep it a hobby and when you are afraid to crash something, keep ur stuff at home and clean it from dust every week.
And if you are afraid to crash something on an airshow, just don't attend!

OK then, John, How about you make a positive contribution, give us all the benefit of YOUR experience ? Seems totally reasonable to try and bring model flying practices up to the standards of real aviation, it is the thing I know best, after all "Aviation is unique in that safety must always be considered over and above any other factors". Not my words but those in the publishers note in this month's Aviation Business, Asia Pacific, the editorial message (Safety Under threat ?) discusses, guess what, safety and the relentless drive to improve it even further in commercial jet aviation. Perhaps they too are getting things out of proportion ! Just my coffee time reading.

I fly them, and I occasionally crash them, goes with the territory, BUT I try, very, very hard not to.

I'm afraid I am a "total aviation person" have been for a long time and its not changeing, my other great passion is music but a broken violin string or a bum piano note rarely has tragic consequnces so its difficult to bring that into model aviation safety. I think I'll stick to what is relevant and I what know best.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

Accident - (noun) something that happens by accident happens by chance (Collins school dictionary).

People leaving things to chance???

Cactusflyer,

You've missed the point, were all saying they can crash and it hurts your wallet, sure if you don't want to lose, take up chess, but make sure when your flying, you give us the spectators and club members the courteous of a safe flying pattern and practice such that no one gets hurt. Is that a problem?

The last time I looked at toys they can kill too, that's why it says small parts risk of choking. I can tell you there are a few desolate parents out there who wished they heeded such advice who now campaign for better, you know what, I don't have to say it really do I?[&o]

Old whinging worthless pointless fun spoiling fish wife Gazzer

You guys are just not getting the point. Any RC plane crashing in itself if NOT dangerous. What can be dangerous is how and where it crashes ! this thread started out by ripping apart a pilot who crashed, and not in any sort of unsafe manner … even if the guy dumb thumbed the maneuver, and that’s what piled the planes in.. so what ? it was far from pilots or spectators, and obviously the maneuver was performed in a safe manner .. if you want to talk about safety, go to the other thread and don’t take it off topic. This thread is about Thomas Gleisner’s Hawk crashing. Keep it on topic. Crash does not always mean safety was not practiced ! and yes, in this case most of you here continue to be a bunch of old whining women !! Please keep this thread on topic, and in proper perspective !!

Voy

Au contrare Wot,

As stated earlier in the thread....... by my gorgeous self...... Bang on methinks, and certainly not dissing the world champ. Just trying to use it as the infallible paradox argument.

You know, I think were on the same side of the coin just your getting more bored about it than I am!!!

So to liven myself up.

Safety is a good thing.

You should expect a failure/error and plan accordingly.

Then you should have fun and only injure/damage your wallet or that cracking amazing paint job on your Bobcat

Everyone goes home happy?

Touche mon amis if you agree

Respectfully,

Gazzer

Uh..........YA ME TOO! (except for the music thing).................My life has been and still is wrapped up in things that fly...Enough said.

Is there any question in any body's mind or WAS there any question in any body's mind before this thread about what safe flying is? I don't think so. We all take the reliablity of our equipment for granted...no matter what our background is. Otherwise we never release the brakes...It's a calculated risk to fly anything. Gazzer, I didn't miss the point. I was quoting some one. I believe that the relevant part of the quote is that model airplanes WILL crash....for whatever reason. We certainly don't see hundreds of thousands of perfectly good retired toy airplanes piling up in boneyards world-wide. The point is that we should use COMMON SENSE and keep the things as far as practical from people when we fly....but we all know that already.