Hello everyone; Happy New Year! This posting is to address the release date of the SWB Mamba turbojet. The release date is still January 2nd, 2003 (pretty soon), and engines will start shipping immediately. Those of you on our list are being contacted/have been contacted so that as soon as your engine is ready it can ship. We appreciate everyone's patience through the engine's development and extensive testing periods.

I noticed the question of air start vs. electric start, and would like to reply... Engine starting with the electric starter motors currently used is hard on the engines because of the low RPM at which the engines are forced to start. This is generally hard on the engine. Also, from a safety factor, air starting affords the ability to blow all combustibles out of the engine in the event of a fire or a wet start. Another benefit is the reduction in flight weight due to the decrease in onboard componentry required.

So, please ignore any rumors that tell you otherwise - the Mamba is being released January 2nd.

Jason
SWB

Sorry Jason, but IMHO air start engines are dinosaurs. With the technology we have today, autostart is so reliable and wet starts are only something you see because of pilot error or people flying the less sofisticated brands. I know that there are things like baby scuba tanks and so on, but they still require a master scubatank to fill them. So the cost of support equipment for airstart is going to run you atleast another 500 Euro or 500 Dollars just to be able to start it up. Plus the hassle of dragging it to the field. I have a combined 350 flights on autostart enines, and apart from having to replace o-rings once in a while, there has been no other expences.

Gerhard

Scuba tank? A modified old braunn hairdrier ( just putting a speed 400 in it)works pretty well on open turbine plane

Gerhard,

I believe this motor (Mamba) can be started with one of those automotive type air tanks that delievers about 125lbs pressure, it can be filled with a reg air comp like we use on our retracs. Maybe SWB can comment here but I was told that by Andy Low, the ECU designer. A little less hassle than scuba air, don`t get me wrong here, I am total auto start, I have three jetcats and love`em.


Vin...

Those damn glow plug engines are just a passing fad, too. It'll run it's course, and then we will all go back to spark ignition...

Whats a "Glow plug?" Ha Ha Is that something you light to see if yer batteries are charged?

I know Vin is an air-start man at heart. It was his slick operation of the JPX years ago that got me out of D/F and into turbines, so he is forgiven.

But Gerhart, air-starting engines rock. I have owned JetCats since they appeared in U.S. I still own P-80 Serial #6 here in the U.S., and was running flak for JetCat when everyone else was fiddling with air and deifying brand X, so no need to remind me about the brain-dead operation of the autostarts, BUT.........there is nothing sweeter than spooling up my Merc with air......poof, slam it up to sustain, and then pedal to the metal at 147,000 screaming R's.

I guess it started thousands of years ago in my childhood, when my dad took me out the General Billy Mitchell field in Milwaukee to watch the Air Reserve guys airstarting the F-86's and F-89's. That gave me a jet fix for at least until the next time I got to see them.

Who knows if the Mamba's are all going to be as nice as the one at FJ 2002, but I personally think it is going be one slick 12lb thruster if they are.

Tom

Hi Tom,

So I am to blame for all the $$$ you spent on turbines!! I agree, the SWB should be a sweet little motor. Andy said they got 5 starts from a garage type tank. It ain`t no biggie filling one of those up. Should be interseting to hear the reports after this motor hits the streets. The price is up there a bit but I hear the PST-600 is going up in price too. The P-80 is still a lot of motor for the price.

Hey Tom, when are you heading this way??

Happy new year

Vin...

Sorry the safety factor argument died several years ago. And I have to disagree with air blowing it out of the engine. You also can't tell me after 250 flawless runs on just one of my P-120's this year that autostart is harder on the engine. Sorry I just don't buy that argument. Air start is cumbersome and a pain in the *** to haul out to the flightline. I might buy the decrease in the onboard weight but who cares about that.....the engines we are using have plenty of power anyways. Not trying to start an argument or a flamewar here, I am sure that you guys have a nice little engine there. But....I know I would not even consider buying an engine now that was not autostart.

David Reid

Hi Vin,

The price on the PST J600 still stands as quoted on the website at $2100 for full auto-start. Our AMA is delayed due to unforseen reasons. We will work this out.

FYI: Its not "hard" on the turbine to spool up via electric motor and bendix type clutch, theoretically and practically. Good turbine design combines with good combustion chamber will prove this. Just think about it, if the motor is wet, you will get fire either way and that's the job for fire extinguisher.

If the engine is suspected to be flooded or wet, electric motor can be used to blow out the fuel by initiating the start with glow plug cap removed. Its better, of course, not to skip the check list and forget to close the fuel valve.

Happy holidays.

B777
PST Jets

Hi Vin:

Valley of the Sun on Sat the 18th thru Saturday the 1st of Feb.
Plan to bring the old beater Packer HotSpot, and maybe the new Bandit. See you then. Now be careful with the A-4. I haven't seen it fly yet!

Does Kevin still have a couple of AMT's? If we get too bored watching our JetCats spool up smoothly for the umpteenth time, maybe we can have an airstart party? I'll bring the Johnsonville brats! Might even invite that ole mudbug David Reid. No matter how many times he uses MY ancient "Why I love my JetCats in 150 words or less" posts from RCO, we all know he is a closet air-starter!

Tom

Coming to you tonite from chilly Minneapolis............it's midnite. Happy New Year to All.

Yea, I just saw this post, and I'm apalled at how, once again, SWB has negleted to be responsive to thier customers. I agree with the previous posts. Air start is cumbersom, and with the popularity of auto-start, it would be foolish (from a business perspective) not to be sensitve to the trend. Being an engineer myself, I know what a horrible falicy it can be to think that your engineering marvel is what the customer will want, without truly listening to what people are buying.
I first saw the Mamba at Fl Jets last year, and I was truly impressed. But delay after delay, and broken promises, and neglect for the customer have erroded any faith I had in that company. They may have a nice turbine, but are they going to be there when I need support? Or are they going to attend to their "government contracts" again and dissapear? I also think that thier price is not competitive with other 12lb turbines--again a foolish mistake when this is their 1st production turbine to enter the RC industry, before they have established a reputation for themselves. Lack of good business sense, lack of customer respect, and poor management,....I don't care how good their enigneering is, I won't buy it. And I would suggest that anyone shopping for a 12lb class turbine look elsewhere.
Moderators---I have posted things like this about SWB in the past only to have it removed out of "fairness" to SWB. I think it is only "fair" the people of this forum that they know that I, personally, have no respect for the company, and my opinion is justified by thier actions.

Tom,

Yeah I'm still a closet airstarter. I do love the sound when you hit the air and the thing starts spooling up. What I dislike far outweighs what I like though. The sound of the air petering out in the middle of a start, my engine not starting but filling up with kero for the next, VERY exciting start. Yep that's when it was nice to have the air to blow the flames out. Where I am located the closest scuba shop is 45 minutes away, but they keep their compressor at a different location and you have to drop off your tanks and pick them back up the next day. I'm too busy for that! I used to keep two bottles full, I went to fly one Sunday afternoon Had not had a chance to fly in a couple of weeks. I did one start and flight then went through the scenario I just mentioned above. Only probelm was my second tank had develpoped a leak in th evalve and I was out of air. Oh yeah.....and I had driven 2 hours to get to where I was flying. Packed back up pissed off and started looking at autostart engines. I won't own another airstart engine. You are right I sound like a broken record touting autostart but talk to 20 guys and I bet at least 19 of them will say the same thing I do.

David Reid

Hi David,

What if you could use the automotive type tank?? this could be refilled at the field with one of those 12v compressors we use for our retracs in between flights?? Yeah, we are spoiled with our jetcats!! just trying to look at the Mamba from a different angle, simplicity and light weight. I would not be against using the auto air tank but no more hauling the scuba stuff around to get refilled etc. There are a few 12lb thrust auto start motors out there with some good reviews now and cheaper in price by hundreds, might be uphill for the Mamba.

Vin...

I remember well the last time a company told us how awful electric start was. It was RAM. Then, less than a year later, all of RAM's engines were electric start...

Hey Vin,

I still like the simplicity of the JetCat system. My flightline gear all fits on a small wagon. This includes charger, fuel, fire extinguisher, small compressor, and can of powermax. There is no room for a small air tank. My regular flying site is a full scale airport and where I fly is several hundred yards from where I park. I know it is one lightweight tank but I am lazy. I'm already making two trips (granted one of them I start my airplane and taxi it out, that's nice too!) I just don't see an air start engine...no matter how good it is, in my inventory. Just my opinion though. My bet is that if swb wants to be competitive they will have to go to autostart. BTW I am sure they have a good product, it just falls short of what their customer base is expecting.

DR

Having run my Wren MW54 both airstart (before I put on the electric starter package) and with the electric starter, the electris start is much better IMO. Faster start ups, more efficient cool down (I tried both ways, again, the electric motor spinning the rotor at 20,000 cools down the turbine a lot faster than blowing air through it)and SIMPLICITY! The weight of the starter package isnt that much in relation to the turbine either.

In terms of price, if the SWB isnt in the same plane as the Wren, the PSTJ600 or the Simjet 1200, why sould anyone wnat to pay more for a turbine that comes with less?

AJC

Hey, around 1952, there were still companies extolling the virtues of spark ignition over glow...compaines that had excess stock of spark engines to sell. But...if you went down to the field, NOBODY was FLYING anything but glow!
I don't know what the delay was with SWB's Mamba, but, like most others, I feel like they ought to just hide it until they get electric start on it, as nobody is going to be interested. But...to try to tell us that air start is superior, to make up for the shortcomings of their product, is kind of insulting!

O.K. I give up. Time to get serious, like my mom used to say!

But, if you see a guy carrying an 80cu ft tank on his back in a Scuba BC, blowin' a little air in his Merc, while he waits for his JetCat to spool up, that's me. Stop by and say Hello. I'd be more than happy to buddy box you thru a couple of air starts

Tom

JetCat x 4-----Merc x 1------Mamba x ??


P.S.----EasyTiger, are you recommending I call Dave Johnson and tell him to convert his DA-150's to glow. My god, I thought jets were expensive, but feeding glow fuel to my 150 would finally break the bank.................

David will bash me mercilessly here, but here goes: I was one of the guys that simply did not trust auto start years ago. But the JetCat guys definitely got it right and it has been successfully done for too long by too many guys to argue. The crap about it being hard on the engine is just not represented by the facts. If the spool up algorithims are done properly and the engine's ass end is robustly designed for this environment, then auto start it shall be! Hard to argue with ten million successful JetCat flights. And lets not forget all of the TJT 3000s and PST 600s out there that are running perfectly too. Now if weight is really a critical issue, then I can see the desire for air auto start. But I don't think I want a powerplant/airframe combo that is so marginal that I have to worry about the starter motor weight!

Mr. Woket:

Electric starters, especially those plastic black ones ruin the natural beauty of these little turbines---
sort of like putting a set of Longhorns on the hood of your Lexus...only works in Texas, and maybe Louisiana.

Tom

Tom A. I stand corrected...spark DOES have it's place, on giant scale gas burners, but the other 95% of engines, from .01 on up, will continue to use glow...
I'm sure that air start will continue to have a FEW applications, sort of...the new MW44 uses air( I think) or a little electric starter that does not actually fly with the airplane.
But the other 99% of people are going to go air electric start.
As long as you are already set up for air, you might as well keep flying it, they do work, and it's better than no engine at all, but seriously...if you are shopping for a new engine(like I am), unless you are really, really on a budget(some are), would you even consider air start? Especaially when it costs the same or more than the electric competition(mamba?)

Not if you put little plastic longhorns on the front of your electric starter....

Hi Guys,

I have been told by Andy Low that the Mamba is really an auto start but run on air. Once the air is applied the ecu goes into its start up sequence, the powermax and valve are onboard as well as a fuel valve. What SWB can do is attach an elec starter and have the batts and outside the plane with a simple on / off switch. It would be like the elec start rams before they went to auto start but the propane would be onboard??

Vin...

We have huge crawdaddies on our hoods over here!