Turbine: RAM 1000

I noticed that the starter cone is coming out at around 90k rpm. Presumably, the spring inside the starter has gone soft and needs replacement. I am enclosing a photo of the starter front bit. Before I start operating can somebody let me know how to dismantle the front bit of the starter to get to the spring?
Also what kind of motor is it? On the rear of the motor there is written FAULHABER (made in Germany). Presumably it is from this company:
http://www.faulhaber-group.com/n164058/n.html

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Reuben
Malta (Europe)

I thought the starter motor was a Graupner speed 300.

Contact Carlos at RTI Turbines.
E-mail is: [email protected]

website: www.rtiturbines.com

Carlos was the principle engine assembler at RAM, and knows the RAM engines inside and out.
Say "Hello" to him for me, if yoiu contact him.

Harley Condra
BVM REP
JetCat REP

Hi Harley,
Thanks for your reply. Actually I was surprised too when I found out that it was not a Graupner 300. Electric starter performance is excellent. As I said, the problem seems to lie in the compression spring because when I open the throttle I can see the cone sliding slowly out. I do not believe it is an ECU signal issue because when I throttle down I can see the starter cone sliding in again.
Indeed I know Carlos is a solution but since this is a trivial matter (I hope) it does not make economic sense to send the whole turbine (engine is relatively new - very low run time) half way round the world to change a spring. Might be a wrong assesment on my part but I would like to see what i can do from my end before taking the easier decision. Undoubtedly, if I felt that the problem was more serious I would not hesitate to send it like I did when I had an ECU issue.

Anyway, thanks again for your feedback. It is appreciated.

Reuben

Has anybody got any experience in opening one of these starters?

I put up a long post about it a few years ago-You could find it in the archives useing ram starter and my sign on. In my opinion that starter was a major contributing factor to the RAMs problems. That little flat O ring just did not make good contact on the flat compressor nut. Tons of slipping, low RPMs and FLAMES from that.
It is not an easy fix. and I am not sure the spring is the issue. Please check for vibration and that the ECU is fully braking the starter.
You cant get the Bendix off without destroying the starter moter. and that Fulhaber motor is a bb coreless design that costs $119 USD. The Bendix has been press fit with a non removable locktite on the shaft.
You could try and pull the bendix off by drilling two small holes at the base of the cone to allow access to the end of the Bendix, then heat up the bendix with a minitorch or iron to soften the glue and then try to pry it off the shaft thru the holes with small screwdrivers. Might work.
The other option is to have Carlos put on an X style starter. About $500 for parts and machining and balance that will need to be done. The engine will start like a dream then though. Scott

Hi Scott,
Many thanks for the response. I had a gut feeling that the starter was press fitted as it would not turn in any direction by hand. Did not use any tools and was waiting to see if somebody comes up with this reply.
Scott, would you think Carlos be needing the whole turbine or just the starting bit to make the alteration? Somebody had told me that the front cover needs to be replaced when changing the front starter. I do not know if this is so in such cases.
There is a very slight vibration when idle but at the rpm (about 90k) when the cone starts coming out there is no vibration at all. That is why I was thinking that it must be the air pressure that is drawing the cone towards the hub. I was thinking on the lines that there is some sort of spring inside the starter that drawings back the cone after the turbine has started to spool up.
Anyway...many thanks...interesting reply

Reuben

A lot of people had their RAM starters updated to the later type. Maybe someone out there has a good original one that was removed from their engine that they'd be willing to sell you. I had one but unfortunately, for you, I sold it several months ago for $25. Maybe Carlos has an old one he took off a customer's engine that he could sell you.

The other option is to buy the newer X style front cover, starter motor & bendix, and compressor nut and update it yourself. It should bolt right on and no balancing or machining should be required. I'd suggest calling Carlos to see if he's be willing to sell you the parts. Another option is to get the parts from Modellbau USA.

http://www.modellbau-usa.com/catalog/index.php
Click on "Turbine Spare Parts". Looks like it would cost about $200 for the parts. If you told them what you wanted to do they could make sure that you got all of the right parts.

Joe

Now that you are mentioning all this I do not know whether my current ECU (latest Bob Price ECU - C03 I believe) would need an adjustment to take the new electric starter set-up. I believe that with the proposed set-up the electric starter has more power.
Probably might also involve tweaking the ECU too

Reuben

You can check with Bob, but I doubt that the ECU would not need any tweaking.

Joe

Hi Joe, unfortunatley you cant just bolt a new X style starter on to an original starter RAM. The compressor face plate needs to be machined down, also you need a new compressor nut. The original nut is flat faced (and hence the genesis of many RAM starter problems) the new X compressor nut and bendix is acorn shaped. This will necessiate a rebalance.
Good Idea to scout around for a good used starter unit. Scott

Would the turbine start if one had to use air pressure start instead of electric starting? I believe the 1000 has an air connection which is blanked off by a festo valve.
Here there are a few options:
1. Send it to Carlos with all the hassle involved (customs mostly!)
2. Give it a shot and try to get to the clutch starting part. If damaged that would not be much of a problem as new parts would need still need to be replaced anyway to get the X style starter.
3. Lump it - another paper weight.
4. Get a similar starter from soebody else. Probably I will be postponing the problem as a similar starter would have a similar problem (I guess!)

Not quite a happy choice but that is about it I guess.

Hello Reuben

The starter that you have is the same as used on AMT-NL engines, at least on the time that the RAM engines where made. (don't know if current AMT engines use same system now). These starters where made by a guy called Geraldo van de Heuij, that was (I think) a supplier of AMT-NL.

I don't know if Geraldo is still in bussines nor any contact data.

Regards,

Gaspar

Another Option:

If the engine is accessible in the plane:
You could remove the entire starter assembly and use a manual electric starter like WREN offers.

Thanks for the reply Gaspar. I had crossed a few emails with Geraldo some time ago. I know he lurks around RCU too. Maybe he could chime in too .
You still here Geraldo??

Reuben

Mach 1...thanks for the reply....yes that is another option but I dont know if the current ECU set-up would like that. Not sure on the effect such a practice would have on the ECU.
Actually this turbine has not yet seen service. It is practically new including 2 brand new ECUs that I had recently got upgraded. Still on the test stand. Must have ran it about 25 times up to now. I keep getting these teething (hopefully) troubles which have precluded me from enjoying using it. One of the reasons why I got at it again is due to the fact that I have a plane in the waiting and I thought I would start using it but alas it does not seem to be my faith in using it. Unless it is 100% running well I will not risk it. Up to now it has never performed well for one reason or another. Hopefully this would be the last straw.

UPDATE:

I assembled the starter again and started to give the turbine another run but this time I unplugged the starter from the ECU in order to eliminate the possibility that the ECU was kicking in the starter at a specific rpm. It resulted that the ECU has nothing to do with this problem and is working perfectly. However, we still experienced the same problem of the starter cone being drawn into the intake at 80k rpm. I also noticed that most starters nowadays seem to have the starter cone shielded from the airflow. It is definitely a case of the airflow pulling the cone towards the intake. Consequently, I decided to shield the starter cone by making a sleeve over the cone which is held by the edge and possibly also pinned to the original cone shaped part of the starter. This could be a solution. I am now, more than ever, convinced that the compression spring inside the starter has gone soft and is not able to overcome the air pressure. Just to have an idea I will reposting the above photo again with the proposed changes as soon as I can find out why I am getting "Page cannot be displayed" when trying to load picture. This could be a solution.....what do you guys think?

Reuben

Sorry but it is only now that I am able to post the photo.
Any remarks?

Thanks

Reuben

UPDATE:

Sleeve made and fitted. It has been glued and pinned to the main starter body too.
We will test run the engine and see whether it would work or not.
Photo attached.

Reuben

UPDATE:
Starter was placed back in its original position. The sleeve did not interfere with the starting procedure and then turbine was spooled to 120k. I am happy to report that the sleeve solved the problem and the starter cone remained in place.

Thanks to all those that contributed.

Reuben