I'm thinking of getting a second hand JetCat turbine for a project of mine and turbine reliability is of paramount importance. How long do these turbines last on average?

I have a Jetcat P120 on a Bandit with 220 Flights , serviced every 25 hrs and still running great ; Starts everytime.

DRGSI

220 flights @ say 12min (generous) per flight equates to roughly 44 hours run time. Has it only been serviced once? You post seemed to imply that your turbine has had more than one service & I was wondering.

Since I am also interested in turbines, what does the "service" include. Do the manufacturers specify a recommended TBO (time between overhauls)? I realize these are delicate pieces of equipment and require special care, but under "normal" operating conditions, has anyone ever estimated the cost of operation (not including the original purchase costs)? I'm just curious.

Rod

Although service every 25 hours (a bearing replacement usually) is officially recommended, its generally not necessary. Jetcats typically go much longer before bearing replacement is necessary. Each engine (and type) is different, but 50-60 hours of runtime is not unusual before bearing replacement is necessary. This is usually about a $600 job.

I have 3 P-120's and a P-80 and all have over 25 hours of operation without being serviced...

Bob

A typical used jetcat engine is about $500 cheaper than a new one, so if turbine reliability is of paramount importance why not spend a little more and buy a new one with guarantee and full hours life expectancy? In a used turbine even if it is in great shape, a small detail like a damaged solenoid or a defective pump could ruin your whole modeling investment.



Enrique

heli_Rod

It depends how you fly and how near max power you have to fly. A nicely matched model where the throttle is operated most of its time at half power will last a lot longer.

The critical question is to send it for bearing replacement and rebalance before they actually fail. Then you are inclined to lose the turbine the compressor and possibly the combustion chamber and it gets rather expensive. Some turbines start to make a nasty yowl or exhibit a tendency to cut which alerts you to the need for a service.

Actually 25 hours is for most people - 2 seasons flying and is longer than you think.

The real cost is not just the engine upkeep, but a generally higher maintenance standard - undercarriage, battery duplication and servo replacement etc. Because a jet model is valuable and very high performance - if there is the slightest thing wrong - you replace that component or you stop flying. How many times have you flown with a slightly chattering servo on the faithful sport model?

The good news is how jet models seam to outlast the i/c model as a result. It is not unusual to come across models that have done 250 flights. I have seen a couple that are approaching the 1000 flights that are still immaculate and unmarked. On the whole - you do not get bored flying a jet!

Ultimately the cost / benefit equation is in your mind and only you can say "It is worth it" and "I can afford it".

You can't go wrong with Jetcat engine.
I had one P-120 that had over 1000 of flights. I only had it service twice for bearing change.

Three of my four JetCats were purchased used and they all run like tops. If you exercise a bit of care in who you get the engine from and making sure that everything is OK, you shouldn't have any problems...

Bob

Not really accurate---I bought two used P-120's---One with 10 hrs on it for $1000 less than a new one and the other for the same price that had just been "Zero Houred" at JetCat USA with a full check-up...Essentially a new turbine when I bought it. The bottom line is that you need to know the history of the turbine before you buy---And the thing is that when and IF I go to sell these two turbines I know that I will get close to, if not as much as, what I paid for them!!

Kevin

I had a P-120 destroyed by my turbine CD and had it sent back to me completely rebuilt from Bob. I trust that engine like no other. Maybe I've been lucky, but JetCat's been really good to me. Bob and the crew have been super nice and always are willing to answer your questions.

Raf

Thanks guys, Lots of good information here! I fly mostly helis and have been contemplating buying a PowerCat Turbine heli that uses the JetCat PHT3 turbine unit. I was trying to decide if the maintinance costs were very high and you have answered about everything I wanted to know. Looks like you have persuaded me to let go of the green and get it ordered!

Thanks again.

Rod

Welcome to turbines!!!!---Even though the turbine will have an egg beater attached to it...---You can't go wrong with JetCat USA!!

Kevin

Check out Wren's turbines also. Very reliable... DB

Good to hear that you are having luck with your engine, however it is not the case for many guys that opted go this way...even buying such a good turbine
like the Jetcat. The problem is that you really can´t know the history of the turbine, even if the owner is completely honest.


This is pretty much like buying a used car... you can be affortunate or not.


Enrique

"Many guys?" How many guys do you know who bought a used JetCat and got burned, 1?, 2?, 20?, or are you just making a sweeping generality based on experiences with used cars? If the owner is completely honest, don't you know the history then if you ask? Like I said, 3 out of 4 of mine are used and not one single problem...

Bob

Based on the small quantity of turbine fliers I have contact worldwide (knowing more than one language and having web access is fun) in the last 10 years I can affirm than 7 persons is a significant fraction of deluded people...

And yes, even if the owner is completely honest he didn´t knows what is happening inside the guts of his engine.. and then the problem can pop out in your hands.

As the "sweeping generality" of comparing cars with planes it is pretty much common sense. If you buy a good new car (a BMW for example) , it is highly unlikely that any problem will arise or even if this happens, you have a full factory warranty. Not the same if you buy a used one.. you will have to put the luck variable in the equation. Same as buying a used Jetcat.


Enrique

Dr GSI doesn't have a big car. He keeps putting his Bandit on the roof of his car so the turbine blades keep turning and dust goes into the turbine.
The other thing is he fly only twice per outing cause it is so hot here in Riyadh. If we count the travel time that is 120min per trip plus twenty minutes flying and 30 seconds taxing, that adds up to 150min and 30 seconds per trip. Multiply that by 110 trips .... I can't get that right so I will leave it to you mr MATH.............LOL

This turbine is for a UAV that is going to cost me about $10k so I can't really afford a flameout on final or a total turbine loss since it will destroy the expensive electrical/machinery components close to it. I think the offset of a used engine is a bout $1000 on the average from what I've seen however, given the quoted service cost of $600 is it really worth it to purchase a used one?

I bought a used P-80 for the DV8R we are using for flight control system research. It too is worth quite a bit more than the engine. Yes, you can get burned on a used engine, but in general, Enrique's arguments don't make sense. You can get a "lemon" right off the shelf just as easily as a used engine. The benefit of a used engine, as long as its been reasonably treated, is that the "infant mortailty" is already past and as likely as not, the engine will go fine for quite some time - this is especially true of the P-80's and P-120's which are over-built for their thrust ratings...

Bob

I believe that for the most part, the R/C jet community is an honest lot. That being said, some people believe that not telling you something is not lying, like that the turbine sucked up a couple dozen june bugs, or ran through a big puddle of mud etc.. I believe Enrique's arguement is that with a new turbine you know exactly what you are getting and with a warranty to boot. I agree that a used turbine "should" have the bugs already worked out, but....maybe the reason for the sale is because it never quite worked right in the first place. You know, lots of little issues but OK on the whole. I think you have a better chance of ending up with a "problem" with a used turbine, but if you are on a budget it may be your only choice. If I wanted peace of mind, I would go with a new one with a huge warranty and customer support.

P.S.- I own a second hand turbine and have been completely happy with it, but the fella I bought it from is a close friend, so don't think I'm bashing used turbines.

Following your logic, buying a new, unused turbine is a waste of money? Excuse me if I didn´t got your point.



Enrique

But the point you are trying to make is that buying a used turbine is a waste of money---Myself and others have proven this not to be the case...For what I've saved I can buy another P-120--Used of course!!![8D]...So for a little over six grand I would have three P-120's...And still have money left over if I had bought two P-120's NIB...

Kevin

And to add to the point---Since I've had flawless performance out of my used P-120's...I have run them past what any warranty would have provided without a single problem---At least in my case, buying new P-120's would have been wasting a few grand---Just for the peace of mind to have a warranty....

Kevin

No, what I am saying is that buying a used turbine is not the best option for a person who is asking for reliability.


This is the original question:
and my final answers is:

Do the right thing and buy a new one if you can.


Enrique