I have always wondered how hard it is to fly a jet. I am by no means an expert pilot on anything but it has always seemed to me that flying a jet wouldn't be too terribly difficult. I have always imagined it is much like flying a warbird except for the throttle delay and faster speeds. What I mean by that is high wingloading, high stall speeds, and a tendancy to tip stall. Am I way off base here? Is there something i don't know? For instance is an average jet pilot just like the average old man who fly's warbirds but with more money? I am not trying to offend any of you and I am sorry if I have. I know some of the best jet pilots made their name by being brilliant on the sticks of either an imac or a pattern plane. I am just trying to figure out if it is as easy as it seems.

Heck, why not just plop down $5-10K like the rest of us "old rich men" and find out? You may "not want to offend", but the phrasing and tone of your question and comments will likely do just that. FYI...

Like warbirds, some jets are relatively easy to fly, and some are not. Having success with a variety of models over the long term separates the truly good jet pilots from the wanna-bees....even the basic "trainer" jets require a significantly greater degree of care and maintanence than most warbirds, and the consequences of a failure to do so are much greater as well.

I got my scotch, and am putting the popcorn on right now.

Barry

They are more complicated on the inside, which means even before flight, there are a lot things to check over..batteries, fuel, air systems, start gas, etc etc etc. You can't just "fuel 'n fly" like a sport plane, so it takes a little more discipline on the front end. An overlooked item - like an open fuel valve - can cause a pretty expensive fire.
Flying is the easy part. No propwash to mess up the air going over the tail, so it is a cleaner type of power - and you don't have to fly fast until you are ready. There are a lot of jets that happily stooge around under a hundred mph at part throttle..... and there is an incredible amount of power available at the top half of your throttle stick.

Landing though, is where you earn your stirpes. Between your gear pass and touch down, there is a lot of energy to bleed off. Flaps, speed brakes, and long runways help - a lot! But practice makes perfect.....the more you do it, the easier it becomes...

Best thing is to go to a jet rally..watch, take pictures, and talk to the pilots....who are generally a pretty outgoing group, and happy to talk about their jets......(although, you have to catch them when they are not busy....)

Naw, not hard at all! "IF you're NOT an old man who flys warbirds!"

Come on.... Most of us don't have money....just great credit to go along with our great flying skills.

"You wanna buy a bridge?"

Ok OK.....A Reaction54 will fly easier than most so called "trainer prop planes". Land so slow you won't believe it.

A SkyMaster F18 with ordnance and full tanks..another story..NOT difficult, just different set of rules.

Most average sport flyers can handle an R54 or a Boomerang easily.

"That bridge will only cost ya 2 JetCat Titans and a UltraBandit...."

Dave

Background:

I have been flying RC since I was a kid (20+ years on and off). I have some experience with power planes, RC gliders / slope soaring and helis.
I have just jumped into RC jets with a 1/8 scale Tamjets F-16 which is powered by EDF. I use it as training wheels for turbine.

Opinion:

So far, flying a jet is not that different from an heavy prop plane / warbird. It feels different because there is no prop to generate instant lift / reaction but it is totally manageable.

However, landing it is very different from anything I have been doing before. During landing, the gas controls altitude and elevators control speed. This is not very intuitive. This feels closer to helis than a prop plane. Further, the extra wing loading amplifies any mistake by a lot. A simple bounce during landing usually means big repairs.

I don't think that flying jets (at least Tam's f16) is difficult. But it is different enough to present a rather steep learning curve.

Arnaud (back to repairing these LG rails )

Arnaud - your landings are getting better and better!

Flying any fixed wing plane around in circles or doing basic aerobatics is easy. Being precise is not. There are jet pilots of all skill levels and the best ones know how to make the flight look good. From what I've witnessed, the most difficult part of flying a jet is throttle management and landing. Most sport fliers don't use rudder and fly WOT all the time. That does not translate over to jets or even giant scale aerobatic planes.

Now if this rain stops I will maiden my first jet.... a Tam F-16.

I am sorry that i rubbed you the wrong way dbarrym but i olny asked because I wanted to know. I explained to you that I am by no means an expert pilot nor did I ever say "I could do that". Please try not to be so sensitive, this hobby is all about having fun and if you take it too seriously you can take the fun aspect out of it.

Thank you to everyone else who gave me informative straight-forward answers. That is the kind of information I was looking for. I am relatively new to RC and having a knowledge base like this is very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to further my RC education.

I believe that once you learn the basics of everything that's involved you will be just fine, it's not as complicated as a lot of people make it sound. I also think that if you can be someone's pit crew and spotter, you will experience and learn a lot.

Good Luck, you will love it.

Ummm i think there are quiet the number of us who fly our jets with the left stick in the ON position which would translate to WOT.

bbagle1, I am by no means thin skinned, and I stay out of 99% of this type of thread. But your comments about money and "old men" hit a nerve. Take a look at my posts, I am not a "trainer trasher" ot jet elitist.

I did not say anyone could not fly a jet - my Boomerang could be flown by a decent intermediate pilot, or a Reaction 54 could be flown by pretty much anyone (i've owned and flown both). But an F-18 (I've owned one), an F-100, or an F-4 are a different matter - they require a degree of experience beyond the basic trainers to fly safely. Not that they require super-pilot skills, they just require more experience - like anything else.

Frankly, some pilots learn quickly - I've seen a couple guys go from RC newbies to top flight jet pilots in 2-3 years. I've also seen some people that have been in jets since Day 1 who make me hide under tables whenever they taxi out.

Comments like "as easy as it seems" are going to infuriate some people...like me (today, at least). You might want to consider that the next time you ask questions (or for help) from a community that doesn't know you.

Cheers -

Barry

[quote]ORIGINAL: dbarrym




Frankly, some pilots learn quickly - I've seen a couple guys go from RC newbies to top flight jet pilots in 2-3 years. I've also seen some people that have been in jets since Day 1 who make me hide under tables whenever they taxi out.




AMEN to that statement!

I did not find it hard to transition to jets, maybe because I started out with DF jets which are simpler and generally not as fast as turbines. So I don't think that flying a jet is all that hard, but LANDING one is another story. There a lot to do and think about when landing one, and it does take a lot of practice to get it right most of the time. Expect some bent gear and scuffed wing tips......

Flying a turbine from takeoff to airborne artistry IS like any other model as long as the turbine stays running. The rubber meets the road in landing mode and deadstick. As a 30+ year modeler landings of all other types of r/c models were of the most challenging and
FUN part of the flight envelope. Even D/f jets and electrics to warbirds I lump in same category as gasser warbirds can have just as high wingloadings. As for Jets I dread the landings, (and I can grease them in nose high and learned on 300' concrete with a trainer Kangaroo and never rooe'd it once.) most jet pilots do as well, as evidenced at jet meets 98% of any jet sortie includes only one takeoff/landing per flight.

As for me the big differnace is residual idle thrust, take your big war bird and figure out how to land it @ 10% throttle, figure out flaps and angle of attack to allow high residual thrust to become usable as the wing becomes a brake from angle of attack. To do this you must transition from flying to near stall, back up to power on landing with angle of attack so airspeed is above stall yet ground speeds reduce for gentle landings. All while guessing what these numbers really are and little room for error.

As I parade turbine jets around most R/c flying feilds versus airports, I could not rely on ground based observation points so I really only got comfortable with landing turbine jets with the use of an Eagle tree telemetry. Sure makes maiden flights a non event becuase it really shows you that takeoff airspeed is the same as landing airspeed only ground speed being the BIG differance. At lift off of a new model one immediatley knows a minimum airspeed for landing pattern routine.

As for me I really admire the jets jocks that can fly a complete landing pattern power on full pattern and touchdown at will versus the ones who just let it ride with 2500' of mistake concrete room.

Some of the notables to me are F4 pilots that have transitions near that stall speed yet be as much as 50% power on @ touchdown given the tiny wings and still be near 30MPH ground speed.

Or I seen a BANDIT ARF powered by a AMT Mercury which would make it almost 2lbs over the intended design and residual thrust even more of an issues yet the TEAM JR factory rep did a gear down pass nose high power on, full pattern touchdown near 30MPH as a no brainer.

Or I seen David Shulman doing rolling loops with a AMT 180 in a Boomer XLARF, having to muscle every control to get through its paltry vertical speeds, only to have a flameout (OUT OF GAS) no worries, only 50' high inverted in a roll at top of loop and coast it into his feet.

That's my goals and only turbine jets (beyond trainers jets) have the flight envelope to get one to that level. IMHO I definately think the Eagle Tree telemetry makes it possible for anyone that does not have the natrual gift of imbedded telemetry to model. 02

From what i have seen the level of skill is no higher than the general spread at a normal club.
You've got the ones who can't take off straight, those who can't do a proper circuit, those that can't land on the strip, those that can't do an approach without porposing, those that are worried about a flame out, those that just can't flare for landing. Just the same as a normal club.
I am surprised that some even take off with their expensive jets knowing how bad they are at landing them. They must have big wallets or big balls.

I have found most jets to fly very well. However considering that they are nearly all ARF and if they had bad traits you would find out about them on here soon. That company would then not sell any of those jets anymore. Pretty much ensures they will not have any bad habits like snapping or tipstalling. People would go off the rails with the price of the fuselage if they weren't well designed.
As far as complex? I mean a turbine is not all that complex, you don't even have to tune a jet, a jetcat is easier to start than an OS46AX.

So as far as flying goes about the same level as flying and landing a Viper pylon racer.
The main reason everyone won't fly RC jets is not ability but more likely just the cost.

I've made the jump and to be honest they are just and easy and just as relaxing to fly as a 46 size prop plane, if fact probably more so due to the fact that you generally put good equipment in them and therefore they operate reliably. Kero start for instance means engine starting is a doodle. I like to compare the throttle lag to the lag of a poorly tuned glow motor. You screw up on approach and go for the gas and have to wait for it to come on. If you stay level, there is no issue, if you oanic and pull up without airspeed your in trouble with both aircraft. It really is a non-event.

So yes I agree with you. not really that difficult and the guys that do IMAC and Pattern before hand will always be good at what ever they do.
Get out there and fly jets.

The flying skill level is not that much more. Handling the complicated systems and flying well can be. Most jets have to use flaps, brakes and retracts. If you are not comfortable with these systems you better be before attempting to fly a jet. Otherwise it could be a very expensive endeavor. Now add twice the speed of flying and most landings and you get the picture.

Moreover, like others have said, it is complicated just starting them and making sure everything is proper. All in all it is a much more complicated system to operate and control.

Andy,
most warbirds have flaps and retracts. So the only extra on a jet is brakes, and brakes are simple to operate and the aircraft has finished flying when you need them.
Warbirds can have petrol motors which are harder to get start than a jetcat with kero start.

Each to there own view but jet flyers like to make it seem harder than it really is.

Hey,

True most warbirds do have retracts and flaps (scale or semi scale ones). Not all gas engine airplanes do though. Also, operating brakes while trying to land is not necessarily as easy as you think unless you have tried it. The aircraft flight is definitely not finished when you need brakes on a Jet. The flight is finished when you have regained ground control. Tell the guys who roll their jets into the grass at speeds up to 50 mph that the flight is finished. Most jets that roll into the side of the runway recieve significant damage. Yes Petrol motors CAN BE harder to start than a Jetcat with Kero start, but the Jetcat with Kero start is MUCH more complicated and requires special attention that if you did not have the proper knowledge could ruin the engine, damage or distroy the aircraft (which cost several thousand dollars btw - over 7k on my boomer alone), cause a fire and create property damage or physical injury. Moreover, there is a REASON AMA requires a waiver to fly jets. What do you suppose that reason is? I could post the requirements for you if you would like, but they are readily available on their sight for all who are interested.

I did not start RC airplanes with jets. I started with high wing petro trainers, worked my way up to low wing petro trainers, then moved up from there to petro acrabatic type planes and then petro warbirds. You can't tell me anything about the basic flight characteristics of petro type planes that I already don't know.

Can you say the same about jets?

[/quote]

You can't tell me anything about the flight characteristics of petro type planes that I already don't know.

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Hmmmmm

You can't tell me anything about the flight characteristics of petro type planes that I already don't know.

[/quote]


Hmmmmm
[/quote]

Ok, that was a very broad statement. But I guarantee you that I could take off, fly and land any properly assembled RC prop airplane. The same could not be said regarding some prop guys going to jets on their first attempt.

THE SKILLED MAKE ALL THINGS "APPEAR"EASY.YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTROL THE WHOLE FLIGHT ENVELOPE OF A GOOD PERFORMANCE AIRPLANE (AS IN PATRIOT,ULTRSPORT ETC) AND OR BE INVOLVED IN PATTERN OR IMAC WHICH TEACHES SECOND NATURE CONTROL OF YOUR AIRPLANE.TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT STICK TO MOVE TO DO WHAT AS YOU FLY IS NOT IDEAL.THIS IS WHY THERE ARE SO MANY JET GUYS WHO CAN AFFORD THEM AND YET CANNOT AND DO NOT DEMONSTRATE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE AIRPLANE.(CANNOT LAND,NO AEROBATICS ETC) JUST A THOUGHT. PEACE.

i Guarantee i can take a heavy metal F-4 to a big warbird fly-in, start the turbine and hand the TX over to the folks flying those giant gasser warbirds that have never flow a jet and greater then 90% of them will tear it all to hell simple as that.

Just got in to Jets in the last 16 months...have been flying RC for 30 years...I always thought that the jets guys have to be the best of the best...high dollar equipment, fast speeds, high wing loading, sophisticated engines...exotic airframes, flaps, retracts, speed brakes, wheel brakes...all of it. Those guys must have thier act together...

Reality is, some of the jet people I have meet do have their act together. Everything is just so, always perfectly maintained...you know the type. They know their machines inside and out and fly them perfectly....

But, there is a lot more hacks out there than I would have guess 16 months ago. Crappy builds, horrible equipment installations, dirty and abused airframes. Guys that can't hold center line on take-off, who out and out PLANT thier birds on landing. Inflight failures, landing gear problems (we all have them but the cream fixes/addreses problems before the next flight).

Bottom line is this, you have hacks and stars in all areas of RC, jets included. A good pilot is a good pilot. Sure there are some differences in Jets but a good pilot will have no problem coming up to speed quickly.

With all of that being said, if you want to fly and make the effort, you will have success....just pick a good mentor.

Beat up airframes are not always bad. The tailplane on my LT-40 had duct tape and packing tape as covering, has been CA glued back into place, and the rest of the plane is beat up, but it works and flys strong.

quote/
but the Jetcat with Kero start is MUCH more complicated and requires special attention that if you did not have the proper knowledge could ruin the engine, damage or distroy the aircraft (which cost several thousand dollars btw - over 7k on my boomer alone), cause a fire and create property damage or physical injury. Moreover, there is a REASON AMA requires a waiver to fly jets. What do you suppose that reason is? I could post the requirements for you if you would like, but they are readily available on their sight for all who are interested.
quote/

I'm sorry but a jetcat with kero start needs no special attention and with the ecu controlling everything you cannot ruin it??? I know as I have limited turbine knowledge meaning I own and fly them but the engines just work straight out of the box with just the instructions. I was able to have one running with ease. No running in, no tuning, no issues. If you have a problem with it you send it back for a service.
Older lpg start turbines probably need about half an hour of instruction from a helpful jet flyer and you'd be away to. Isn't this why everyone goes on about getting a known brand jet and not a jetjoe? Because their easy to start and more reliable?

All planes can cause property damage or physical injury I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
I don't know, maybe I suppose the reason AMA has a waiver is because turbines 10 years ago were new territory, and maybe because there not a piston engine, or it gives the AMA something to do, maybe because it makes jet pilots feel more special?

Are you trying to convince people not to fly turbines because they are so complicated for you?
I don't understand why people try to make is sound harder than it is, the more jet flyer's the better.
If you can land in front of yourself and know how to flare and land smoothly you can fly a jet. i know this because I can now fly jets and all the negatives I was told before hand did not come true.

If I can tell you one thing that will get you flying jets easily it is, surround yourself with POSITIVE like minded individuals and get a jet guru who walks the walk instead of just talks. Jets are easy.

My Boomerang is easier to fly than a 40 size trainer,Handles great and very stable flyer does exactly what you tell it to.My only complaint about the boomerang is when it comes time to land I feel like I am flying a glider,it just did not want to land,it just floated right on by me and touched down 100 yards away from the point intended.The hardest thing for me to learn was just how slow the plane could fly so that I could slow down for the landing.I feel like I am flying a glider that will go 135mph.