cost of getting into turbines.
04-16-2003 | 11:21 PM
#26
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From: Lubbock, TX
Cost
mr_matt,
You must be talking about me! I can tell you the cost of getting into turbine and the cost of losing everything and I mean everything.
I crashed mine on final. I don't know why it went in but there seems to be 3 or 4 people who were not there that can tell you how it happened.
Mine burst into a large fireball and then proceeded to melt and burn every wire, servo, TURBINE!!! and component that you put into one of these jets. All totaled up minus the things that I got to keep, (the Transmitter) about $8500!
JetCat has offered to sell me a new one at 25% off, which they don't have to do but is very nice anyway. But that is still $5000 short of a new jet.
I can afford a new one but as Zaney said, it is hard to shrug off.
Approx. cost of a new jet- $8500
Not having someone tell you 10 minutes after you get the fire out that they know exactly what happened - priceless
Just my 2 cents worth which would bring the cost up to $8500.02
Eldon
Texas
You must be talking about me! I can tell you the cost of getting into turbine and the cost of losing everything and I mean everything.
I crashed mine on final. I don't know why it went in but there seems to be 3 or 4 people who were not there that can tell you how it happened.
Mine burst into a large fireball and then proceeded to melt and burn every wire, servo, TURBINE!!! and component that you put into one of these jets. All totaled up minus the things that I got to keep, (the Transmitter) about $8500!
JetCat has offered to sell me a new one at 25% off, which they don't have to do but is very nice anyway. But that is still $5000 short of a new jet.
I can afford a new one but as Zaney said, it is hard to shrug off.
Approx. cost of a new jet- $8500
Not having someone tell you 10 minutes after you get the fire out that they know exactly what happened - priceless
Just my 2 cents worth which would bring the cost up to $8500.02
Eldon
Texas
04-16-2003 | 11:26 PM
#27
cost of getting into turbines.
Matt,
Let me offer a different perspective on the issue of converting 45/90 DF jets to turbine power.
I concur with your observations of the building (and flying?) skills of the average (wanna be turbine) modeler. But instead of steering them away from the MUCH cheaper (and just as successful) entry level turbine options offered by JHH, in favor of more prefabricated (and therefore "idiot proof"???) alternatives at 2-5x the price because you don't think they are capable of building a JHH jet, my opinion is that any modeler who is not capable of successfully building (and flying) a JHH jet kit should not even be eligible to participate in this sector of the hobby (i.e. turbine powered jets).
Demonstrated skill/capability should be the requirement for entry to/participation in this sector of the hobby, not the depth of your pocket (which can be utilized to temporarily disguise the lack of skill/ability...according to your comments/suggestions above).
Just my humble opinion.
Peter
Let me offer a different perspective on the issue of converting 45/90 DF jets to turbine power.
I concur with your observations of the building (and flying?) skills of the average (wanna be turbine) modeler. But instead of steering them away from the MUCH cheaper (and just as successful) entry level turbine options offered by JHH, in favor of more prefabricated (and therefore "idiot proof"???) alternatives at 2-5x the price because you don't think they are capable of building a JHH jet, my opinion is that any modeler who is not capable of successfully building (and flying) a JHH jet kit should not even be eligible to participate in this sector of the hobby (i.e. turbine powered jets).
Demonstrated skill/capability should be the requirement for entry to/participation in this sector of the hobby, not the depth of your pocket (which can be utilized to temporarily disguise the lack of skill/ability...according to your comments/suggestions above).
Just my humble opinion.
Peter
04-16-2003 | 11:30 PM
#28
Senior Member
cost of getting into turbines.
Matt,
I don't think I took anything out of context, but was addressing what was written in pretty plain English--and I did read your statements more than once before making a reply.
I still contend that .45 size D/F conversions are not a threat to the hobby so long as the turbine installed is appropriate to the size of the airplane. You should recall that I flew a GWM powered Cougar for several years that had been built for ducted fan but never flown with one, was 14 years old when I installed the turbine, weighed 14# at takeoff and flew just fine. So what is your concern with ducted fan conversions and appropriate sized turbines? What evidence can you show to document that they are not safe (since that is the implication)? If a guy has problems building the kit and hires a "professional/qualified builder", where's the problem?
Perhaps the "elitist" perspective comes through by making statements that impugn that those with "lesser means" (so as not to be insulting) are somehow not capable of deciding for themselves how to spend their own money. Kind of like a recent past-President who made a similar statement about a proposed tax cut not working because the average guy couldn't be counted on to "spend it properly"! Again, when a person gets in over his head financially--with ANYTHING--it is his responsibility and he will, ultimately, make the decision he deems necessary based on his priorities. Probably if a deposit were required up front for returns/repairs, those without the means to pay the bill wouldn't send it in and leave it!
Kit engines like the MW-54 and JDE-54 should actually help people with less money to spend because they can take them apart, replace parts as needed, clean out the dirt if they've run off the runway, etc. without having to incur additional expenses by returning them to the factory for repair.
There are still plenty of guys flying trainers, 30% stuff, as well as turbines who might be considered hazardous to the hobby whether they build their own airplanes or just fly what they buy. But the doom and gloom naysayers have largely been disproven in terms of the handwringing predictions that there would be large numbers of fires and crashes that looked like the airplanes were carrying laser guided munitions. To a large extent, the AMA certification and waiver processes have put a measure of sensibility and awareness on this area of the hobby.
Let's face it, control rests with each individual--and knowledge is power. So as long as the consumer educates himself, which most of them do, and the dealer provides information, there is much pleasure to be gained by moving into the world of jets. No one will ever be able to control what the second or third hand purchaser does with what he buys on eBay or the in the swap shop at his local field! If he gets in over his head or doesn't understand the equipment, he will likely just get rid of it.
Larry
I don't think I took anything out of context, but was addressing what was written in pretty plain English--and I did read your statements more than once before making a reply.
I still contend that .45 size D/F conversions are not a threat to the hobby so long as the turbine installed is appropriate to the size of the airplane. You should recall that I flew a GWM powered Cougar for several years that had been built for ducted fan but never flown with one, was 14 years old when I installed the turbine, weighed 14# at takeoff and flew just fine. So what is your concern with ducted fan conversions and appropriate sized turbines? What evidence can you show to document that they are not safe (since that is the implication)? If a guy has problems building the kit and hires a "professional/qualified builder", where's the problem?
Perhaps the "elitist" perspective comes through by making statements that impugn that those with "lesser means" (so as not to be insulting) are somehow not capable of deciding for themselves how to spend their own money. Kind of like a recent past-President who made a similar statement about a proposed tax cut not working because the average guy couldn't be counted on to "spend it properly"! Again, when a person gets in over his head financially--with ANYTHING--it is his responsibility and he will, ultimately, make the decision he deems necessary based on his priorities. Probably if a deposit were required up front for returns/repairs, those without the means to pay the bill wouldn't send it in and leave it!
Kit engines like the MW-54 and JDE-54 should actually help people with less money to spend because they can take them apart, replace parts as needed, clean out the dirt if they've run off the runway, etc. without having to incur additional expenses by returning them to the factory for repair.
There are still plenty of guys flying trainers, 30% stuff, as well as turbines who might be considered hazardous to the hobby whether they build their own airplanes or just fly what they buy. But the doom and gloom naysayers have largely been disproven in terms of the handwringing predictions that there would be large numbers of fires and crashes that looked like the airplanes were carrying laser guided munitions. To a large extent, the AMA certification and waiver processes have put a measure of sensibility and awareness on this area of the hobby.
Let's face it, control rests with each individual--and knowledge is power. So as long as the consumer educates himself, which most of them do, and the dealer provides information, there is much pleasure to be gained by moving into the world of jets. No one will ever be able to control what the second or third hand purchaser does with what he buys on eBay or the in the swap shop at his local field! If he gets in over his head or doesn't understand the equipment, he will likely just get rid of it.
Larry
04-17-2003 | 12:07 AM
#30
My Feedback: (94)
cost of getting into turbines.
DaFatha.. Amen, you said that perfectly... So how long before a turbine upgrade for the hawk ? Make me really happy and put out an ARF F-86.. Please 
Also another side note, when did building become so important, you don't see real F-18 pilots building there own F-18's. I know thats a little far fetched, but from my own experience most guys at my field that fly good don't like to build that much, and most guys that are great at building don't fly that good, now I know that there are some who can do both well, but I think its almost 2 different hobbies. Don't get me wrong, pilots should definitely know how to maintain their planes, but building isn't exactly required to be a great pilot.
just my penny worth.
Michael
Also another side note, when did building become so important, you don't see real F-18 pilots building there own F-18's. I know thats a little far fetched, but from my own experience most guys at my field that fly good don't like to build that much, and most guys that are great at building don't fly that good, now I know that there are some who can do both well, but I think its almost 2 different hobbies. Don't get me wrong, pilots should definitely know how to maintain their planes, but building isn't exactly required to be a great pilot.
just my penny worth.
Michael
04-17-2003 | 12:13 AM
#31
Retro
Matt,
Damned if you do--damned if you don't.......
You're right, though. I'm sure you weren't talking about the conscientious modeler who'll use a suitable engine for his .45-size jet that's scaring you. Maybe you were referring to the one who'll take an old bird with age-and-fuel rotted structure and use a not-so-suitable engine. Larry mentioned the Hawk with the Ram 750, but there wasn't much more information. Did the builder take steps to make sure that the airframe is safe with that kind of loading and thrust?
It's true you DO NOT have to buy an all-composite maga-buck ship to successfully fly turbines. Those kits like the Aviator and Facet are good examples of this. However, they were designed by intelligent people to be turbine aircraft. Though they are relatively inexpensive and all-balsa, they are perfectly suited to the kind of flying they are advertised for. I had an opportunity to inspect an Aviator in San Diego recently, and you could tell that though it was light and balsa, it was stout and well-designed for what it is for. It's not the same as grabbing a Kadet Senior and duct-taping a turbine to it because that's all you want to spend on a plane.
The first turbine-powered plane I ever saw fly was the JHH Cougar with a GWM 8-pound engine. It was much faster and had a much more aggressive climb and a faster, heavier landing than any .91 powered .45-size jet I've ever seen.
Damned if you do--damned if you don't.......
You're right, though. I'm sure you weren't talking about the conscientious modeler who'll use a suitable engine for his .45-size jet that's scaring you. Maybe you were referring to the one who'll take an old bird with age-and-fuel rotted structure and use a not-so-suitable engine. Larry mentioned the Hawk with the Ram 750, but there wasn't much more information. Did the builder take steps to make sure that the airframe is safe with that kind of loading and thrust?
It's true you DO NOT have to buy an all-composite maga-buck ship to successfully fly turbines. Those kits like the Aviator and Facet are good examples of this. However, they were designed by intelligent people to be turbine aircraft. Though they are relatively inexpensive and all-balsa, they are perfectly suited to the kind of flying they are advertised for. I had an opportunity to inspect an Aviator in San Diego recently, and you could tell that though it was light and balsa, it was stout and well-designed for what it is for. It's not the same as grabbing a Kadet Senior and duct-taping a turbine to it because that's all you want to spend on a plane.
The first turbine-powered plane I ever saw fly was the JHH Cougar with a GWM 8-pound engine. It was much faster and had a much more aggressive climb and a faster, heavier landing than any .91 powered .45-size jet I've ever seen.
04-17-2003 | 12:43 AM
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From: Oxford, MS
cost of getting into turbines.
still contend that .45 size D/F conversions are not a threat to the hobby so long as the turbine installed is appropriate to the size of the airplane. You should recall that I flew a GWM powered Cougar for several years that had been built for ducted fan but never flown with one, was 14 years old when I installed the turbine, weighed 14# at takeoff and flew just fine. So what is your concern with ducted fan conversions and appropriate sized turbines? What evidence can you show to document that they are not safe (since that is the implication)? If a guy has problems building the kit and hires a "professional/qualified builder", where's the problem?
Larry,
There lies the problem. The 7-12# thrust engines are not the ones that are out there in the used section of the internet forums. The 16-28# thrust engines are the most commonly found used engines. So that is what gets crammed into a small airframe. Individuals purchase the bigger engines "planning ahead" for their next model. Wing loading is too high, and structures don't get properly strengthened. You may have been building for 30 or 40 years but joe new turbine guy has only been flying for 4 years and he has never built anything other than an ARF from great planes. Professional builders are out because he is scraping up his last dollars to get together a turbine airplane so how is he going to pay the real professional builder $2500+ to build his jet. The newer designs like the facet, AV8R, and Reaper may fill that niche very well.
I can't believe you could be recommending a new jet pilot do a turbine conversion without support from the manufacturer (yourself) I did a quick scan of your website and did not even see a turbine conversion kit or parts for any of your models. Every one of your kits listed convertible to turbine with minor modifications. What exactly are minor modifications????Other manufacturers have designed their kits specifically for turbine power. Maybe you should step up to the plate as well.
David Reid
04-17-2003 | 01:03 AM
#34
cost of getting into turbines.
I plan to build my own turbines.
As for costs and investment vs. tears after the BANG! remember...
You build a crash into every plane you make. No matter what the cost, you have to deal with that fact.
And my lovely wife is the queen of I-told-you-so's...
As far as getting other guys to build your ARFS... isn't this getting a little out of hand? :stupid:
As for costs and investment vs. tears after the BANG! remember...
You build a crash into every plane you make. No matter what the cost, you have to deal with that fact.
And my lovely wife is the queen of I-told-you-so's...
As far as getting other guys to build your ARFS... isn't this getting a little out of hand? :stupid:
04-17-2003 | 01:31 AM
#35
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From: Columbia Falls,
MT
Go ahead
I like the smaller build it yourself approach to turbines.......................
Go ahead and pull a "Tim the tool man Taylor" conversion.
You're Just making my BVM Jetcat combos look even better at the field.
Justin Sands
Go ahead and pull a "Tim the tool man Taylor" conversion.
You're Just making my BVM Jetcat combos look even better at the field.
Justin Sands
04-17-2003 | 01:44 AM
#36
My Feedback: (94)
cost of getting into turbines.
Why are you guys on Larry's case? You act like there is an epidemic of people crashing unsafe .40 sized jets because they are overpowered... I haven't read about any here on RCU. I think Larry is 100% correct in what he is saying. I will admit I also picked up on an elitist attitude in the first few post, I don't think you guys should try and "scare" people away from turbines, most people who are going to spend $2-$5k on a turbine out fit are going to do there homework and try and make there plane as crash proof as possible, seems like the AMA offers enough challenges for Turbine pilots, why should the industry do the same. The more turbines that are sold the cheaper turbines will become, and the more that are made the more experience the manufactures get at making quality units.
04-17-2003 | 02:48 AM
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From: Oxford, MS
cost of getting into turbines.
Mugenkidd,
You are missing the point here. Fact is there are several better options out there for the budding turbine guy. We have the "trainer" type airplanes, Roos, hotspots, blades, rookies, Bobcats, etc... that have been DESIGNED for turbines. Then you have a manufacturer claiming that his models are ready for turbines with a few minor modifications. These same MINOR modifications are not designed into the kit and are not even advertised on the manufacturers website. Hell with minor modifications you can bolt a turbine on to a trainer forty. Is it safe? Maybe if you use common sense and a small engine. Does everyone have common sense? Maybe....do they all use it? NO. Turbine conversions are not just a simple matter of making a few minor modifications or just sticking a piece of rolled up stainless steel and a bigger fuel tank into a model. That is the message that Larry seems to be trying to portray here.
The guy that posted this question asked how much. Instead of all the manufacturers jumping up and saying my kit with this motor is the perfect combination why not answer the guys question?
You are missing the point here. Fact is there are several better options out there for the budding turbine guy. We have the "trainer" type airplanes, Roos, hotspots, blades, rookies, Bobcats, etc... that have been DESIGNED for turbines. Then you have a manufacturer claiming that his models are ready for turbines with a few minor modifications. These same MINOR modifications are not designed into the kit and are not even advertised on the manufacturers website. Hell with minor modifications you can bolt a turbine on to a trainer forty. Is it safe? Maybe if you use common sense and a small engine. Does everyone have common sense? Maybe....do they all use it? NO. Turbine conversions are not just a simple matter of making a few minor modifications or just sticking a piece of rolled up stainless steel and a bigger fuel tank into a model. That is the message that Larry seems to be trying to portray here.
The guy that posted this question asked how much. Instead of all the manufacturers jumping up and saying my kit with this motor is the perfect combination why not answer the guys question?
04-17-2003 | 03:13 AM
#38
My Feedback: (94)
cost of getting into turbines.
I agree Dave that is a good point, I guess someone should start selling upgrade kits for some of the more popular "older" model jets that could be upgraded to turbines, if not upgrade kits then at least a set of written instructions with diagrams, it could save a lot of folks heart aches.
By the way thanks for spelling my username correctly.
Michael
By the way thanks for spelling my username correctly.
Michael
06-12-2003 | 12:57 AM
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From: Reno, NV
cost of getting into turbines.
hi,
I think that part of the allure of jets is the ability to respond to an eager beaver prospective buyer of your equipment with the phrase "unfortunately I can't go lower in price, I have $$$ invested in this". Perhaps, knowing that an exclusive club will not be adding 'just anyone' makes the large investment worthwhile.
Paul
I think that part of the allure of jets is the ability to respond to an eager beaver prospective buyer of your equipment with the phrase "unfortunately I can't go lower in price, I have $$$ invested in this". Perhaps, knowing that an exclusive club will not be adding 'just anyone' makes the large investment worthwhile.
Paul
06-12-2003 | 05:33 AM
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From: NA,
NJ
cost of getting into turbines.
Originally posted by DavidR
Turbine conversions are not just a simple matter of making a few minor modifications or just sticking a piece of rolled up stainless steel and a bigger fuel tank into a model. That is the message that Larry seems to be trying to portray here.
Turbine conversions are not just a simple matter of making a few minor modifications or just sticking a piece of rolled up stainless steel and a bigger fuel tank into a model. That is the message that Larry seems to be trying to portray here.
I don't mean to pick on you but I just had to post my thoughts.
I'm rebuilding a very used JHH Kfir for use with my MW54. As far as I can tell the basic airframe is very solid and converting it is, in fact, rather simple.
Engine in the back, a bit of CF in the wings, redesigned control surfaces, hings and rods.
I can't claim to be anywhere near as knowledgeable as some of the people who post here but I do know how to work with composites and I do know how to engineer an airframe. I do think that with a little common sense (and maybe a pocket calculator
) a turbine conversion is totally safe.You'll always have those yahoos out there who think that duct tape is good enough to mount an engine. They happen all over our sport and not just jets. The idiot who buzzes the flight line with his 99% epoxy 1% balsa ugly stick is just as dangerous.
BTW, I'm not here to defend Larry. I don't know him (other than reputation). This is purely my opinion.
As to experience, nobody knows enough. IMHO the best way to learn is to do it. The difference between a dangerous rookie and a safe one is whether or not he listens to advice (or asks for it as well).
(just my 2X10 cents worth)
