besides plane, engine, servos RX, what does every thing else end up costing to get into turbine jets?
when i was down at the best in the west at chino, i was checking out there equiment, pretty much everything they had was different or a major upgrade from what i have, and i have a few prop planes and enough to fly them,
im trying to figure the cost of getting into turbines eventually, can anyone give me a good idea on this aspect?

Do you want the real cost or just the one we tell our wives?
Chris Z

Good answer Chris!

I'm not sure if anyone is brave enough to add up the cost of all the little things we buy to support the planes we fly. Plus buying used can save a ton. I figure, excluding the items you listed, around $1000+ in support equipment. Not counting the new truck and/or trailer you will eventually buy.

Mark

About £100000...
New flying suit with cap
New chome fire extinguihser
New truck with new custom trailer
2 off P120 turbines
Special anit-glare shades
20 gallons Jet A1
5 gallons Aeroshell 500
New house located near to flying site
Large present for the wife

Expensive business

Only 20 Gallons of Jet-A????? We burned 55 gallons in three days at an event last weekend!

Average cost if you go with new equipment

P-120 $3,295.00
Kit depends on what you are interested in.... $800-$8000
JR 10X radio $1,200 (Futaba is comparable price I am sure)
Servos for your pride and joy figure $500-$1200
Misc materials for building including paint etc.... $1000
Misc fire extinguishers $250
Startup equipment, chargers, fuel jugs $500-750


Expensive but very fun. Note you also may have to spend the equivalent dollars on new jewelry, clothes, etc... for your better half.

DR

Lourdes,
A minimum cost would be around $4000. The cost of the engine is just the start, all the items you mentioned increase the cost dramatically. I'm finishing up a Facet 2300 that I scratch built using up some of my balsa and ply stock and I'm using my Monokote stock to cover it. Not counting the cost of the wood, which I bought years ago at much cheaper prices, I have about $3600 in it. If you go with a 'Roo type model, figure another $800 or so for the plane and retracts.
Of course you go to the used market but unless you know the person you're buying the engine from, you'd probably send it back to the factory for a check and make whatever repairs are necessary, so I'm not sure you'd save that much, plus you'd have a generation or two older technology.
I can see why some turbine fliers say they never relax or have fun when they fly because they're afraid they'll do something stupid to wipe out their investment, and for some this is a one shot deal, if they crash they're done with turbines.
A rule of thumb BV told me was if you can't shrug off a crash with whatever class of model you're flying, your in too deep.
Regards,
Jon

The cost of being with some of the best RC people in the world, "priceless"

I spent a long time working ebay and RCU and found some good deals. My costs :
500 Kangaroo with Retracts
2000 RAM 1000x Turbine
200 PCM Receiver
600 JR 10x transmitter
110 BVM Wheel Brakes
400 Misc servos, hopper tank, UAT Fuel tank hopper, Leads, proportional brake valve, air guages, air lines, receiver battery, control horns
150 Jersey Fueling system

That UAT BVM hopper tank was 57 bucks by itself. However, I have to tell you that I solo'd last weekend and after all that expense, it was worth it!! I'm very excited to finish up another turbine jet soon.

In previous posts here, the $4,000 number mentioned is just about right with a "Sport" model.

Scale will set this figure higher and in most cases, significantly higher due to the addition of expensive retract systems, finishing materials and so on.

A Sport Jet such as the Facet-1200 or AV8R or Reaper and etc, @ ($350) + (x1.5) for finishing materials & support equip ($525) + Radio ($400) + 12# Turbine ($2,100) yields - $3,375 +/-.

Alternatives to lower costs are used engines and airframes, Package offerings by Turbine distributors or suppliers.

As to purchasing of ANY used engine or airframe, be sure you "fully" investigate the background of both.

If purchasing a used turbine, obtain the serial no. of the engine and check with the supporting distributor to gain a service/repair history etc. If doubt still exists, offer to pay to have the engine returned to the distributor or service center for an inspection and bench run and written report of condition. This will cost you some minimal funds, ($50-100) but the alternative could cost you BIG !

I trust these comments are of help in your decision.

Well said Kerry,
see ya at Liberty Bell Jet Rally 2003.

Lorduss,
keep in mind that the $4,000 figure relates to a good day of flying. We try not to think about the bad ones....Maybe this year I'll avoid the runway lights!

I was actually gonna start a thread about this very subject, but decided against it.

I basically started from scratch with turbines. Meaning, I had to buy all new equipment because very little from the prop world, save some tool and misc. field equipment, can be used.

I also bought, what I would consider, to be top of the line everything. I only like to buy an item once. I bought a 10X a coupla years ago because of this very reason and now it's paying off.

I definitely could have done things cheaper.

I bought:

Bobcat XL (kit, retracts, blah, blah, blah)
Jetcat P-120
All JR radio equipment
Jersey Modeler fuel can
2 fire extinguishers
Another Orbit battery charger
Walcom spray gun
Not decided on batteries, as much as $250 for duralites though..
Some special tools
paint (!)

All said and done I think I have 8K in it. A lot of those items will not have to be bought again for a long time or can also be used on my next model. I know I went overboard but what the hell. I definitely think it can be done for under 4K. I really like the looks of the PCM av8r. The cost can be managed by buying things in stages instead of all at once.

People often say "don't fly a model you can't afford to crash", which should be "don't buy anything you can't afford".

Jet modeling is the pinnacle of the hobby...it's great to be joining those at the top.

BTW DR is correct about the bling-bling...it's only fair

Bob

Hi!,
I am a new jet pilot. The expense is greter than expected at many levels. I have flown pattern for years and can say it is much more expensive to fly and build a jet.

I fly Futaba even with jets.

In the last year I have spent $8-10,000 to out fit the needs of flying a bobcat xl with a p-120. There are many expenses that are different from the other. The need to travel to even fly at a safe place is greated than the travel that I had to do with pattern.

If you would like to discuss it feel free to call me at home 410-683-0026

The note from Gerry Sterner is honest. It remains "total cost" is different from any one plane

Mark Lamos
Baltimore

You can get a JHH kit and Wren turbine combo in the $2500 range. That's for a full package...includes everything minus radio. Package pricing is currently in the works...no specialized support equipment required.

Chris

I think you'll soon see many more new guys get into the turbine arena with the availability of the new smaller turbines (12# and 7# thrust). With engine pricing under $2K and a whole LOT of previously unbuilt .45-.91 ducted fan kits lurking in rafters, basements, etc., the fence-sitters will be looking to move on up to the jet set in the next year or two. Just you wait!

Larry

I just hope the quality level of the DF conversions take a pretty massive jump.


Most people I know that get into jets are not very experienced modelers (builders), and the thought of them getting an early style 45 jet kit and converting it is a bit scary...maybe some of the very experienced guys will get into it but it seems like they would have gotten into it already.


It is hard not to sound elitist, but I have seen MANY people try to get into jets that really could not afford it, quite a shame to see someone save for a 1500 dollar used motor, get 1 minute of flight time and then need a 400 dollar repair (not expensive in turbine terms BTW) and they are effectively out of the game.

I don't think that is intellectually very honest.

What about:

paint/finishing/building materials
fuel can
fire extinguishers
possible battery charger upgrade
a bunch of stuff I had to buy that I forgot......

There is a lot more to it and it can add up quickly. My paint/finishing supplies bill was $400....and I bet that was on the low side of some other's projects. You could just use covering or spray cans to eliminate most of that but there is specialized support equipment required...unless you currently have both water and CO2 fire extinguishers, 5 gallon kerosene can, etc.

It can be done cheaper than a lot of guys do it....but there will be some specialized items needed.

Bob

Heck even if i was rich i could not just shrug off crashing a 5 pluss thousand dollar plane.

This hobby adds up very quickly. I started with jets with a little ratty pick up truck that I used to drive to and from my local field. Then when that wouldn't work anymore I traded my little ratty truck in for a suburban. Now that I have a couple of planes my suburban has gotten to small now and I have just invested in a 6x12 trailer to haul all my stuff around in. This hobby is by no means cheap but I still have to say that I don't care how rich you are or how much money you have if you lose an airplane it is nothing you can just shrug off.

Now the other added expense in this hobby, which everyone here has missed, is the wife, girlfriend or whatever. You know how many roses, dinners, and small gifts have to be bought to just to keep the peace in the house when UPS drops off that new kit or motor. Trust me I got away with "No dear, this motor was only 300.00!" for about 1 year and she started looking at RCU and actually got a clue as too how much these toys actually cost us. Then I was in trouble.

Just my .0000001 worth.

patrick.

It seems to me unlikely that there will be that many DF conversions. I think that as the motors get smaller and less costly, you'll see also see many more jet ARFs such as the Cermark Aermacchi for under $1000. As Matt said, most of the people that get into jets at our field aren't very experienced builders. So it makes sense that ARFs will make tremendous inroads here as they have elsewhere in the hobby.

Hi,
I think some of you are misinterpreting BV's comment. He isn't saying you shouldn't feel bad, be bummed out or depressed over crashing your model, he's just saying that if you have so much invested in your model that you are afraid when you fly it that you'll lose your investment, maybe your in too far. This not only applies to jets, but to scale models, 42% Extra's, etc. For some modelers a $1000 invested in their model is a LOT of money.
Jon

The only thing you listed there that is a requirement for turbine operations is a fire extinguisher (a one time expense). Building and finishing materials are no different for a jet than for any other airplane (scale or sport)...depending on what someone is looking to do, they can use alot of what they already have. Typically those who are serious about getting into jets have been flying for a little while and will have a lot of what is required for flight and basic building and maintanence. My point is that a turbine model doesn't have to break the bank and it can be done such that it doesn't. If you are able to buy a complete package where the materials are supplied, and all you need is some miscellaneous glues and resins to get it together and some paint to get it finished, then you're that much closer at a considerably lower price.

Chris

Matt,

The record with turbine powered models to this point--be they retrofitted ducted fan aircraft or those specifically designed around turbine engines--does not support the postulate that .45 size jets are somehow going to just "fly apart", as was the implication, by virtue of being "turbinized." In fact, the top end speed on these models with an "appropriate" 7# or 12# thrust turbine will not likely exceed their speeds with the best .91 ducted fan power--and they certainly are not likely to exceed the AMA published speed limit. The fact is, actually, that a RAM 750 has already flown in a JHH Hawk ARF kit--and it flew very well--also very fast. The problem, of course, was unacceptable wing loading, so it's since been retrofitted with a more appropriate Wren MW-54. However, experience actually illustrates that the majority of new people tend to be more cautious in trying to make the proper choice when matching engine with airframe for the very reason that they are concerned about maintaining their investment over the long term.

I'm just wondering how it is that somehow the level of monetary investment in a jet project is supposed to equal skill level, as has been inferred here! Be that as it may, I believe you have rolled up a few yourself--and at what expense!

Larry

I agree. I often get the impression here in the jets forum that somehow the amount of money you spend equals what level you stand at in the hypothetical ranking.

When someone is starting off into turbine jets, why not encourage the route to spend as LITTLE money as you can and still get a safe, reliable, modern engine and kit? Rather than that make a list of >$10,000 US with a top end composite kit, high power/price turbine, etc. When I started into large scale gas planes, I went from a 1/4 scale to a 30%, to a 33% etc. Not to the biggest and best in one shot. Same thing applied to me when I wanted to try jets. I bought a Wren 54, and a Super Reaper. Put EVERYTHING (with trim wheels, brakes) together (including a 5 pound co2 ext) for about $3500 US and I flew it all last summer on my 6 channel airtronics infinity radio without any problems. I would say I had a lot of fun, SAFE fun and I am looking forward to flying that plane again this summer while I am building my Ziroli Panther for my KJ66 engine.

I would think that with the planes now like the Facet, AV8R and others (as well as the smaller scale jets like those JHH has to offer) and with engines like the MW54/44, simjet, PSTJ600, etc that more guys will indeed get into turbines, and have some cool turbine fun without spending more than it costs to get a decent large scale gasser built and ready to fly.

Andrew Coholic

I am sorry you took my comments the way you did. I did not mean to infer anything about money, other than I have seen many people get over there heads. If you don't believe me I can show you the turbines we have in for repair after a minor crash that have been in the shop for over a year because the guy could not pay to fix them.

As for kits I don't know anything about your new ARF, I hope it does well. Please reread my post, I was talking about .45 CONVERSIONS from old kits.

I go to MANY events and talk to a lot of people, they cannot even build an ARF. They are looking for people to build ARFs. These people cannot CONVERT a DF kit, especially a little 45 one. All I meant to say was I hope people really know how to build before they try to CONVERT a 45 size model. As Chuck mentioned the people getting into jets at my field pay to have ARFs built.


What is this supposed to mean?

This is always a touchy subject, I am not sure why. Let me try again

I know guys that scrimp and save to buy an 800-1200 dollar used motor. You cannot (for the life of you )tell them they are making a mistake, just no way they will listen. I tell them to get a motor that they can get some support on, a warranty, etc cause they will need support.

They don't listen and they end up making a bad decision

This IN NO WAY says they need to spend 10000 dollars or whatever, ANd more power to you guys that build your own motors, these guys I am talking about can't screw a clevis on, I see them all of the time.