Hi Guys, I thought I'd run this one by you.
I purchased a Ram 1000 from a guy in January. He said it was in " perfect running condition". I received it around Jan. 15th, looked it over , it spun free, starter spun it free, so I put it aside until I needed it. For the record, it was winter here untill about 3 weeks ago. On April 12th, I took it out of the box, hooked it up and attemped to start it. ( I have another Ram 1000) Would not fire all afternoon, all settings tried, finally started it from the back with a lighter. Engine lit on propane, ramped up, switched to kero. and shot flames , then shut down on overtemp. Upon cool down it was rubbing somewhere, and seized up, stalling the starter motor. I emailed the guy, and he said he's not responsible because I did something to it in the 3 1/2 months I owned it. I sent it to Carlos, and it needed a combustion chamber, bearings, bearing support, fuel manifold, hardware package ect. I never touched it until April 12, but the guy insists I either crashed it, or did something to it, and won't be responsible for anything. In fact, now he says I'm trying to scam him. I would like him to pay for 1/2 the repairs, and feel that's more than fair. He refuses.
Do you think I'm out of line ? I guess I should have started it right away, but I trusted him, and didn't. He assured me it was test run, and in perfect condition.
It couldn't have run in this condition, and Carlos assured me it was nothing I did. It had worn out parts and improper maintenance/ assembly.
What are your thoughts ? Am I unreasonable because of the time lag ? And please, don't tell me to buy a Jetcat ect.
Thanks,
Dale

Some Ram 1000´s did that kind of things even as new. I wonder what can happen when bought used and with some years of storage.

IMO best thing to do is ask Carlos to do his upgrades on it and go ahead, or if you want to buy a used turbine the next time, buy a AMT.

Enrique

I would like to say that I personally have known Dale for over 28 years now flying R/C with him and this is very unfortunate. As Dale admitted his biggest mistake was “trusting that the engine was in working order�. I do know that he did not attempt to run this when he first received it… a big mistake in my book but that’s water over the dam.

I hope that the gentleman who did sell this realizes that this engine was not as advertised and helps Dale out, I think Dale is being more than fair in only asking for ½ of the repair costs. In my opinion the gentleman should be responsible for the entire cost or take the engine back and refund all of Dales money. But as Dale has mentioned due to the time laps I guess ½ of the repair cost would be fair. The only scam here was perpetrated by the seller of this engine.

Unfortunately when buying second hand goods you are always leaving yourself open to these situations.

In my opinion running the engine straight away would have made little difference. I don't know much about US law but am pretty sure that in the UK the usual commercial trade laws do not apply to private second hand sales. There is no outright legal right for a refund or exchange on second hand private purchases. The engine should have been run BEFORE purchase by the buyer (or even have it independantly checked) to confirm its condition. I know that this is not always possible and in that case you have to balance the risk with the cost saving.

The only law that I am aware of in the UK is that the seller is not allowed to blatantly lie about the condition of a product. However that relies on him knowing. Can you guarantee that the seller knew that the engine was faulty? Do you know for sure that the engine was faulty the last time it ran?

I know its harsh but I don't think that the seller has any responsibility here at all.

p.s. I have been in a similar situation with a second hand engine that failed before it ran. I mentioned it to the seller but he was not interested. Unfortunately I knew that he was not liable and had to bite the bullet and get the engine repaired myself.

sicklick33,
I believe the issue at hand was the fact that the engine was purchased in good faith from an ad placed here on RCU, the seller advertised that the engine was in working order and was test run at Modelbau USA.
I don't think that the combustion chamber, bearings,and fuel ring deteriorated due to sitting for 3 1/2 months, so I due believe that the engine was mis-advertised.
It is a shame that there are unscrupulous people in our sport, but I guess this is a fact that we must live with.

Dale,

My condolences and I think that your offer was more than fair. It doesn't sound like it was in "perfect running condition" to me. I guess this is the problem with buying a second-hand engine.

In 20/20 hindsight, it might have been a good idea to have the engine sent to Carlos for checkout BEFORE the sale. If the engine was fine, then you pay for the checkout. If it wasn't fine, then you can negociate terms with the seller. People make similar arrangements with used cars where the sale is contingent upon an inspection.

I just got my RAM750F back from Carlos after the engine sat unused in my garage for six years. The engine was fine and I'll feel better on that first flight knowing that I spent $150 for the inspection and piece of mind rather than worrying if the sucker might detonate at any moment and cost me a $12K jet.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your problems. Incidentally, is the seller still into flying jets or was the sale part of him unloading his inventory and moving on to some other hobby?

Jim

hi dale no i do not think you are are out of order to ask for 1/2 the repair price the only mistake you made is not making the seller run it for you regards jonathan

rcjets_63
He still flys jets. I guess I made a contribution to his future participation.
Thanks,
Dale

I'm also agree that combustion chamber and bearing won't deteriorated for just being sitting 3 month. I bought a PST 600-R about 2 years ago and make same mistake of not running the engine as soon I got it. Well I posted her for sale but I do run the engine prior to complete the sale. My engine started at second attemp with no problems at all. I'm also sent the running test video to a guy that was interseted in the engine. He was very happy with me for sending the prove in video the engine is in great condition. So great that I regret to sell it and decide to keep it with me. Now she is waiting to be installed in my Panther. So ask 1/2 price of repair cost is a fair offer knowing the fact the engine was not tested as soon arrives. So next time we decide to buy second hand engine lets test it ASAP so any issue can be resolve with the less stress possible.

Alex

The point is not whether the combustion chamber has deteriorated in 3 months but did the seller know about its condition before the sale?

If you buy my car off me today I will sell it in perfect working order. If you take it to a garage tomorrow they will probably find faults with it that I don't know about. These faults may have been there for months but I wouldn't be offering any refunds for anything discovered after I sold it.

If the engine was sold with known faults that is a different matter.

This is a good example. How does a video of it running prove anything (apart from the fact that it did run when the video was taken). It certainly doesn't prove that the internal components aren't worn. If the bearings fail on the first run after the sale and the engine is damaged, would you pay for the repair?

Sorry to hear of your problem. What's the seller's story? When was it serviced by Modellbau? Had he run it since then? Can he produce a reciept for the work done?

I suggest that you call Modellbau to verify his story. They should be able to verify whether or not they serviced it. How much time was on the engine when they serviced it, when you bought it, and now? That information should be enough to convince him whether or not you could have done all that damage to it or not. Also you could have him talk to Carlos to verify the current condition and get his opinion on the matter first hand.

If his story doesn't check out then you should threaten legal action and reveal his name on RCU as a warning to others.

Joe

At least a video would show that it did run, unlike the engine that Dale received, where it was nothing more than a flame thrower.
You are correct, the bearings could fail at any moment or any other component could fail, However I do believe that the seller did have a knowledge of what he was selling.[X(]

That's a hard call, most times a second hand sale is "where is as is" and the seller is under no obligation to do anything. Moral obligation doesn't mean much to some people.
On the other hand, if the seller was running the engine, and it hadn't seized, then as far as he knew the engine was in perfect running condition. Remember when you were a little kid playing with light switches and your mom said "that switch only has so many flips in it!", same kind of deal unfortunately. If most people had been running that engine and there were no problems they would think it was fine as well, to bad the seller didn't send it in to be checked before the sale, then there would be no issues.

I had a RAM750F that I had purchased from a well known jet modeller, the engine had been to Carlos a year or so before I bought it and it hadn't ran since, it was however on loan to a museum or school or something, not run, but there. I bought the engine as a freshly checked engine with new bearings. On the first run the rear bearing went on it. I was lucky, the seller felt bad about it and paid for the repair, but I never felt it was his responsibility.

I have a brand new never run PST1300R, sadly, I haven't ran it since I bought it and the warranty is up on that, I could sell it tomorrow and it could be a faulty engine. To my knowledge it should run perfectly, but you just never know, so if I were to sell it, the buyer COULD end up with an engine that blows up first run, unlikely, but it's just an example.

It could even have played out that you were available to go see the engine run before buying and the seller could have run it and all might have been perfectly fine, then the next time you run it, boom.

I had another RAM750 that I flew for a year or so, never had an issue, put it in a new jet, fired it up, and the compressor wheel came apart, destroyed the engine, previous to that I had listed it for sale, fortunately I pulled it to use in that jet. Would have been the same thing, that engine ran flawless for me, never a glitch, never crashed, never dropped, never dirty etc. But that run was it's time I guess.

Anytime I sell an engine, airplane, radio etc, I ask that the buyer check that it is all to their satisfaction before I "cash the check" so to speak, that way if there is a problem I might be out the product, but not actual cash. If a buyer waits 3 months, well, I wouldn't feel obligated to do much, I'd feel bad, but as I say, anything can happen anytime, as far as the seller may have known, that engine might have been running flawless before he sold it.

Just my 2 cents.

Another RAM 1000 rip off. Sorry to hear about it. Good luck on ever sorting it out.

Andy

cant you take note of the run time and starts on the ecu?


wouldnt that prove that the motor was having problems and the run time was nil since purchase?

You're rigth on that one, but at least I sent a prove of a good running engine in present time. This video was also sent to factory for examination with serial number to verify the age of it. All results were sent to me and to buyer from factory. And yes the full refund agreement was part of the deal. But the buyer will need to test run it in a good reasonable time frame. Not two years like I did. Also the buyer wanted me to send goods prior of the cash. Did you send your engine to a guy you don't know first prior to recive payment? Even if he got an outstanding rating. I don't think so. That was the only reason why I regret to sell it. I was talking about my experience and not looking who's falt was in Dale's deal. We all are taking risk when buying second hands stuff no matter what is. Some are lucky others don't.

BRGS,
Alex

You can safely start these from the back???

I flip start mine with my finger, a punctured propane can and a lit cigarette

I think a can of "hairspray" and a match at the front of the turbine might do the trick! [X(]

Shok
The engine was sold to me without an ecu. But, that is an excellent suggestion.
joeflyer
I suggested he contact Carlos, but he declined.
LGM Graphix
As for these things just happening , one run after it " ran perfectly ", I find it highly unlikely. It was disassembled by Carlos, and needed alot of parts. ( see start of thread ) I have found all the feedback on Carlos to be positive , so I figured he would know what to do. Granted , he doesn't work cheap, but I need to know it's right before will stand there next to it at 126000 rpm. And to think we were impressed by the ducted fans at 22,000 rpm.
Thanks,
Dale

Sorry to read about this mess Dale. I purchased a turbine here that had 4 hours runtime and I very politely asked the seller if he could make a short video of the turbine running and post it on Youtube along with a quick glance at the GSU while running. He accepted my request, I sent him the money, I got the turbine and everybody was happy.

Is it me, or does anyone else find it strange the seller refused to call Carlos and happened to not have an ECU for an engine that supposedly "ran perfect"?

To me that was the first sign of of a potential problem...a Turbine without a ECU.... Danger Will Robinson....Danger!!!!

invertmast
The guy said he had two Ram 1000's and only one ecu, so he wanted to keep it.
Thanks,
Dale

Dale,
sounds understandable.. but possibly a coverup? who knows...