rcpete2

At what point do you decide not to waver someone?

pilott28

My Feedback: (27)

Georgia Jets has a pretty good process documented, as they get a lot of waiver traffic. http://www.georgiajets.org/docs/waiverdemo.pdf

Looking at the accident stats that the JPO collected for a couple of years, there are two causes of crashes that stand out ... basic pilot skills (including a pretty good self awareness of what they are) and the quality of construction and maintenance work on the aircraft. So if you have someone who has pretty good command of the aircraft, their construction work is decent, their equipment is complete and well maintained and they know the key regulations, you are probably approving someone who is at minimal risk of loss.

Silver182

My Feedback: (2)

No Waiver required for EDF's, one of several reasons’ why the EDF is where the growth in Jet technology is occurring. What say you?
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
Waiver # 8000

AndyAndrews

When you learn to spell "Waiver" perhaps?? lol

quist

My Feedback: (198)

If you can Ace the waiver test set by the AMA you should get your waiver. Not before.

The real question is, when should a waiver be revoked or suspended.

JetCatJimmy

That's a very good point! Quist taught me a LOT when I was going for my waiver. I thought that it would be a fairly quick process, but I quickly learned that jets are so different from everything I was used to. It took much more patience than I thought and eventually I waivered. You need to follow the process that was set out before you. Some people may not need all 20 flights to waiver and some will need more. The CD will have to determine that.

If you're interested, work toward it. Your first solo is its own reward.

rcpete2

sorry about the spelling, must slow down on keys.Andie

E.N.T.

My Feedback: (1)

Usually you know the person asking for sign the waivers papers. What kind of flyer and responsible guy he should be. We turbine pilts are not dealing with a harmless toy.
SO, even if you pass the small test given, it all refers to responsibility, compromise, and knowledge of this ntype of aircraft.

Hector
CD 7460

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Simple test for me - if I would not be willing to be out on the flightline flying my own aircraft at the same time as the applicant flies his turbine solo, then I will not sign off on that guy's waiver app.

I don't care what has been said here in the past by some of the JPO officials about "If you can manage to do the things that are listed in http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/510-D.pdf then no-one has the right to ask for anything more" ... the test decription is so minimal nowadays that for it to have any value you HAVE to add interpretation to it. Ilona has always stated that the test descriptions are a starting point only, and that we are entitled to expand on the test if and when we feel it necessary.

So, for instance, if someone does a reverse half cuban eight as one of his "combined looping & rolling maneuvers" and performs the entire maneuver at full throttle and using max elevator, then I will want to see some additional demonstration that the guy actually knows how to do something other than just violent yank & bank, and that he knows how to manage his throttle better.

Same with the "landing must be completed on the runway" requirement ... if we're flying from someplace like Crow's Landing, with something like a 250ft wide by 8000 ft long runway, then I'm gonna require some better control of where the landing is than that it managed to "finish on the runway".

If anyone disagrees with my right to extend the test when I see something that I deem questionable, then they are fully entitled to go find someone else to sign them off instead.

Gordon

AndyAndrews

I just signed off on a guys waiver a couple of weekends ago. It's not rocket science and I don't intend to ever make it so.

Andy

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Andy,
I remember when I got my waiver you had to take an AMA written test, show certification of attending turbine ground school and pass the flight test.
It's so much easier now and more relaxed, although there are still a few people that like to put students through the wringer.
My advice is to check with the person who is going to sign you off, if he has added a whole lot of other things to the waiver requirements, and you're unconfortable with them, you might want to look for someone else.
Like you said, none of this is rocket science.
BRG,
Jon

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Well, the way I see it is if you sign some guy off and he T-bones somebody with his airplane, you are likely to be involved in any subsiquent legal action. If you say "I just made him do the minimum AMA manuvers and he was fine" you'd probably be OK, but if you could say that AND "I then made him do X, Y, and Z and observed his flying for several more flights and he was fine.." you're more likely to be out of it having done your due diligence at that point...

Bob

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

I'm curious as to why AMA would allow an examiner (for lack of a better term) to make his own requirements, above and beyond what AMA, and by extension the insurance company, requires.
My understanding is the waiver the waiver requirements are just that, requirements and not suggestions, and if you meet those requirements you must be given the waiver.
I'm wondering if someone meets the requirements but fails to pass the additional requirements of the examiner, would he be denined the waiver, and if so, is there any recourse for the applicant? Has this ever happened in the past?
It just seems strange that AMA would say that to get the waiver you must do A, B, and C but an examiner can add any additional requirements that he wants.
Sure doesn't seem very fair to me, some could make the process very difficult, others easy.
BRG,
Jon

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Bob – to me the important point is even more basic than that. What if you made him do the basic manuevers, and he was NOT fine in your opinion ?

The objective of the test is stated to be :

and yet many (most ?) of the test items do nothing to describe what may be considered a 'pass'.

Note that the various portions of the test indicate what the intent is – e.g.

Right there in the italicized part, the AMA are telling us not just to say "Did the pilot's execution of that maneuver loosely meet its description?", but to use that maneuver to help assess the pilot's overall flying skill.

For argument's sake let's consider the following scenario : for the 'combined rolling and looping' maneuver let's say someone does a reverse half cuban eight that looely meets the manuever's description ; it starts facing slightly away from the runway a couple of hundred feet out, and ends up facing towards the pit area at full throttle 20ft off the deck, with the aircraft yanked away from crossing the safety line at the very last moment, without the throttle ever having been brought back from its 100% position – and meanwhile everyone else present is running for cover.

Meanwhile, the guy HAS "performed the designated maneuvers" - and he HAS demonstrated his skill (!), so according to some you should check that box . It does NOT meet the broader objective stated by the AMA (above) however, which is why there always has to be subjective assesment as to whether the objectives of the test have been satisfied, not just the ability to say that the maneuver was done.

Most people observing the above scenario would actually agree that should not contitute a 'pass' of the test regardless of what the test wording may be. However, inbetween that horrible unsafe manuever and a perfectly executed one done by Quique there's a whole spectrum of variations which we may encounter and which we need to be able to assess.

It is therefore up to the 'examiner' to make judgement calls regarding the person's overall flying ability rather than just whether each check-box could theoretically be checked somehow if you look only at whether the manuever was 'done'. If the examiner considers some aspect of any part of the flight to be marginal, then requesting follow-up maneuvers etc is a perfectly good way to be able to assess whether to sign the guy off or not.


BTW, the list of items that must be performed during the test begins with:
Note the word "key". The fact that these are described as the KEY elements – rather than the ONLY elements – is quite significant.

Gordon

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Jon,

If a pilot can't pass muster for a given waiver holder to sign his form, then, as Gordon said, he/she is free to go get someone else to sign it. There is no REQUIREMENT that a waiver holder sign a waiver application for another person, so each waiver holder is free to sign, or not sign any and all (or no) waiver applications as they see fit - its a simple as that.

Actually, I'm not a difficult person at all to get to sign a waiver application. In addition to the "basic" stuff on the AMA manuver list, I'm particularly interested in the takeoff and landing - and *positive* model control throughout, and in making a judgement that this person is going to be "safe" in their ability to control the speed/direction of the model relative to the flight line and danger to other pilots and spectators. I also like to see how they build/setup their models (or have someone else who is good do that for them - some guys like to buy and fly, which is fine as long as its done right...) to be sure that they won't be flying an accident waiting to happen.

So far, for me, everyone who has come to me to sign a wiaver has already past the point where I think they are safe to fly. Hopefully that will continue, but I sure won't put my name on a waiver application if I don't think the person is going to be safe, mature, and responsible with turbines!

Bob

AndyAndrews

If someone wants to sue you there is nothing to stop them. At that point it becomes your word against theirs anyway. If a person can qualify utilizing the basic requirments as set up in AMA, that is all all that is needed in my opinion, moreover that is all the lawyers would look at anyway.

Bottom line, if someone performs the requirments but you are still not comfortable with that person then don't sign it. I would never sign off on someone that had the skill but not the maturity to operate a jet safely. Still, its not rocket science and there is no need to add additional burdens to someone trying to get a waiver. At some point and time you have to simply trust that they will do the right thing. If you are worried about getting sued then don't sign one at all. There is no guarantee that it won't happen, even if you are 100% certain and sure of the person you are helping to get a waiver.

Andy

NickC5FE

My Feedback: (31)

Jon, I think that just like in real aviation....Flight Examiners are afforded the opportunity to extend into the brain matter of the examinee at question. In the AF, examiners have a "guide" of questioning they pull their questions from, but in no way does i think that hold thm to sticking to whats on paper. I think in order for an examiner to be able to have a warm fuzzy about the check ride, they usually want to dive a little deeper than what is required by the regs. On my last check ride, my evaluator asked me all kinds of "above and beyond" questions to see if i really knew systems or if i was just remembering the questions that are usually taught in the schoolhouse. It was his way of making me show more in depth system knowledge. I think the same holds true for the AMA, I dont think they can bust you and not waiver you if what the examiner busts you for is not on the AMA document that governs pass or fail, if anything it may just inspire more confidence for him as well as the other club members you will be flying with. Just my .02. Nick

ravill

My Feedback: (11)

Its hard to argue with Gordon on this point.

How do you know you aren't seeing some "performance anxiety" vs bad piloting?

I think you have to give the guy some more flights to show that he can fly. Maybe that is why there are 2 guys that sign.

Raf

ira d

Well we have been down this road before and as I said before I think its unfair when
a sign off person can make up their own rules. Although the waiver process has been
refined for the better it must always be fair. Also IMO I doubt any wavier signer will
be sued if someone they sign of has a crash and hurts someone its just to much of
a long shot.

IMO what the AMA should do is produce a video that shows just what is required by
the appllcant once the appllcant has studied the video then they would make an
appt with a sign off person who would the video the appllcants test flight and submit
a copy of the video to the AMA.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

That's fine … any prospective turbine pilots who feels it is unfair for the examiner to be able to properly verify their skill level, should simply not ask myself - or any number of other like-minded people who donate their own time (& often money) for doing sign-offs - to do a sign-off for them ; then there won't be a problem.

Or, they can do a demo flight for me, and when I see something that is marginal I will fail them outright rather than allowing them the opportunity of salvaging their demo by doing another maneuver to show that their first poorly executed one was unrepresentative of their skills. (i.e it's rather thoughtless to automatically assume that an extra maneuver is a bad thing when in actual fact it may well be in your favor).

Gordon

AndyAndrews

Have you been turned down?

Jetman007

My Feedback: (6)

I agree with Bob & Gordon. As a person signing on the bottom line, I need to be reasonably satisfied that what I'm attesting to is true and accurate. If I need the pilot to do a few more/different maneuvers, so be it. Not one person has ever objected. I've only failed 2 people and the reasons were obvious flying capability deficiencies. No arguments from them either!

Usually, it's a no brainer, but when it's not so clear, I will ask for more than what's recommended.

I like to see accurate take-offs & landings too with a jet (DF or turbine).

Art Gajewski

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

I saw a guy signed off by JPO president flying a bobcat 50 with a .46 engine for his waiver flights. Two turbine jets went in and the guy reportedly is out of the hobby. There is nothing wrong with crashing a turbine jet, a lot of guys including me have done it. If you've got the general flight skills for this area of the hobby, as a Turbine CD, I'd sign them off. There are so many crashes I have seen by guys that aren't really current, that I have often thought, we each have the right to crash our jet if that's what we want to do..........

The sign off by the JPO pres, is what I used as a litmus, wrong right or indifferent, and just because the landings weren't greased etc, doesn't mean that skills can't be built.

Regardless, the more waivered guys we have, the stronger the voice, and I am tired of being the 1%'rs

ira d

I now have my waiver but a couple of years ago when I first wanted to get one I found a
lot different opinions about what type of plane you could use and if could buddy box
for the test or if your test plane had to have retracts ect ect.

My point was that all CD's should have the same requirements but I dont have a problem
with being asked to repeat a manuver.

I currently have a Boomerang Intro that im enjoying very much.

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

Nice Ira that you are enjoying your jet, I will have to visit you soon, I promes. [8D]