What do you guys think?

I might be heading for a heavy crosswind weekend and I am not sure how the BobCat ARF will respond with and without crow.

Anyone got any thoughts on the matter?

Thanks in advance,

I think shouldn't make much difference from the usual if you still have adequate aileron and rudder control.

Matt,

I have not noticed any differences with or without crow in a crosswind...and believe me, if we have a wind here....it's a crosswind []

Chad

Don't go to Florida Jets
Semper Fi
Joe

Tucson!

just drive it on at mach 6....you will be good to go!

Dats only in da mon'n....spose to be up cookin breakfast by den,,,its like an alarm clock...whoooooo whoooooo!

Send us a picture!

your buddy Bub Rub LOL

Justin Sands

bvm rep
team jr/horizon

Matt,

There was a heavy crosswind at TIMPA on Sunday morning (gusting to 20 knots at 45+ degrees to the runway). By early afternoon, things had calmed down a bit. By mid-afternoon, the wind was under 5 knots and down the runway.

Hi Matt,
Basic aerodynamics.. you always need to add a little airspeed for every added 5 Mph crosswind. You may remember the day after the hurricane frontal passage at Superman! I remember adding about 15 mph to my approach speed while doing touch-n-go's.

My BobCat is an early built-up XL..no flaps so no crow between the flaps & ailerons. But I did have crow available for extra drag (both rudders in) but personally I would never crank in extra drag during a 1/4ing or direct crosswind of more than 10 mph. Cross control and if anything added lift say 10 degrees of flap if you've got it is the best method in a crosswind landing!

An easy formula that works with any aircraft is: apply enough rudder to keep the landing gear tracking parallel with the runway center line.... and then apply what ever aileron is necessary to keep the aircraft on the center line. Of course pitch control and power as necessary! This formula in extreme wind conditions will end up in an upwind main landing gear touching down first then the other main and nose wheel will follow.

I had an instructor working with me during my Commercial check ride prep that believed a good crosswind landing required nose wheel and upwind main touching at the same time and then lower the wing. Needless to say he could never demonstrate what he was talking about.. so I had to teach him how to do it safely!

I had to land in Hays KS one day with about an hour of fuel remaining... after three go-a-rounds in a 43 gusting to 50 mph direct crosswind in my 182. They actually sent line boys out to wing walk us in... not a bad idea, I thanked them you bet. I used my well tried and trusted formula for crosswind landings it worked great.. but the reason for the three go-a-rounds as you might have guessed..was that I had to increase airspeed each time until I could get the rudder off the stops to hold parallel. That was a fun day)
Lee

only one problem.......2 words....

no skilz!

Smokin Joe got a good shot!


Whistle tips in a jet.....hmmmm

Thanks Jim and Lee,

Yes Lee, I do remember that year! You were (are?) a machine with that BobCat.

I think the point is somewhat moot, the chance of pulling this trip off is growing more remote every second..replan is RVing at CA Jets

Lee...you have balls man! Landing a 182 with a 38 to 44 knot "direct crosswind" is 'test pilot' nuts...especially considering that the 182 has a maximum demonstrated crosswind component of 15 knots! Cessna's crosswind component charts don't even go beyond 35 knots! Whew...I'd never attempt that in my 182...sounds insane! I'm hoping the wind was a whole lot calmer for you closer to the ground than at pattern altitude. I've flown the pattern in 30+ knot winds and would have to keep the plane crabbed around 35-45 deg to keep my track. Fun stuff...it makes for a great view out your side window, that's for sure! I just wouldn't attempt a steep side slip on final with all that coming from the side...of course though, that's just me!

Doesn't Hays have two active intersecting runways though giving you an alternate with more of a headwind? Curious...what was your airspeed on short final? No flaps i take it.

Pete

"after three go-a-rounds in a 43 gusting to 50 mph direct crosswind in my 182."

The amazing part is that you're proud enough of this stupidity to share it with us.I would think that the first go-around would've been enough of a wake up call,that trying to land in over 3x the max demonstrated xwind for your airplane is moronic.What'd you do for an encore,get liquored up and play with power tools?

Matt,

One school of thought is not to use full flaps in gusty crosswinds. They mostly provide drag and you may have less control authority at slower speeds. Not sure that's so much of an issue when used in combination with crow which is designed to kill lift as well as add drag. I would probably opt for the crow.

Another good technique in a really strong crosswind is to land in a crab (angled into the wind) and if the runway is wide enough, actually land slightly across the runway. That is, line up towards the downwind side of the runway and turn into the wind (a little) just before you start your flare. This way you are getting a headwind component out of the crosswind, reducing your ground speed and not fooling with cross control rudder so much. As soon as you touch down, use rudder/nosewheel steering as necessary to keep it on the runway. Holding aileron into the wind will help keep the wing from tipping.

Good luck in Tucson,

Craig

Hi Craig:

I am at no more than one month to my Skymaster F-16 maiden flight again after a crash in Aug. 10 2.008. New fuse and some electronics. I will be contacting you for the 175 mm CG.

Reading these thread, I am very interesting in it because in my airfield we have cross wind most of the year.

Can you please clarify my what crow mean?

Guillermo

Ever been to Hays KS, Erik? On a long cross country flight many years ago I was...give me a break where else was I to get fuel? No where, within an hours range. So you do what you got to do. This particular afternoon the wind was directly out of the west rather than the normal north-by-north west 25-30 mph. Hays does have a crosswind runway the problem is it is narrower and not much better angle for winds out of the west.

The point is it can be done if you use correct technique, extra airspeed, and a little luck! If you don't think lady luck is a required copilot, then you haven't been there and done it my friend.
Lee

Guillermo,
"Crow" is when both ailerons deflect upward (yet still continue to function as ailerons). I think it originated with the glider guys who use it with spoilers to add drag and kill lift during landing approaches. They use it almost like a throttle.

With jets, we combine crow with landing flaps, mostly for jets that have excess lift and/or just don't slow down well in the landing pattern. It's very popular with King Cat and Bob Cat type jets. Put them out just prior to or on base leg and the jet will slow nicely while maintaing a normal descent profile to landing.

Craig

Lee,
I will reply via pm.

Thanks Craig

Understood

Obviously I can't use this in my Skymaster F-16 1/8 because as you know, this jet don't has ailerons and flaps. It has only ailerons or flaperons.

Regards

Guillermo

Are you sure that the wind in Hayes, Kansas DROPPED Below 50kt's.

The place needs 12 runways just in case.

Matt - I know it's not quite the same since my old Bobcat is not the ARF, but anyway... in a particularly strong crosswind I simply don't use the 'crow' (reflexed aileron) on mine - I just crab it in instead.

Since the crow pitches the nose up, I personally find that makes the aicraft more susceptible to crosswind gusts because the wind has that much more exposed surface to grab hold of (note extensive use of scientific & aeronautical terms). I actually only need the crow on that Bobcat to help slow it down for some of the shorter fields anyway (remember, no flaps on the original Bobcat) so it's no big deal to land without.

The strongest crosswind I've landed the Bobcat in was one where I had to lean forward about 30 degrees to avoid being blown back on my butt. I only did that once.

Thanks for the feedback, the wind I was looking at was about 20 knots at about 80 degrees cross. Guess we want find out as I had to bail on Tucson due to work. The good news is I can go all 4 days at CA Jets with the RV.

See you there.

Doom...sounds like you know what the winds in Kansas can do! I was about 35 years younger that day and had very little "first hand" knowledge of Kansas and its winds. I learned alot that day.
Lee

Matt,

I always found with the Bobcat (old style) and the Kingcat that the crow helped smooth out the crosswind landing, it still allows you to keep power on. Land a little hotter the crow still looses lift even in a crosswind. I rememer myself and Tommy D doing touch and goes in a 25-30 mph crosswind several years ago at Superman.

DR

Hi Lee,

I'm hoping what was learned here, and what should be evident to all, is that one SHOULD NOT play "test pilot" and takeoff/land in such direct crosswinds...it's risky and dangerous for oneself, the plane, and those with you or on the ground when pilots push or exceed safety limits. This applies to both RC and GA. I'm not sure about 35 years ago, but today there are MANY airports with services/fuel within 1 hour reserves of Hays (KHYS)...several with intersecting runways with different heading options. ([link=http://skyvector.com/#45-19-3-3806-1247]See www.SkyVector.com[/link]) I wouldn't be surprised if there were better options at the time. Proper flight and weather planning would have probably helped avoid this scenario with the tools available today, but I assume METAR's/TAF's and FSS were available back then too.

I live in So. Cal and deal with the infamous Santa Ana winds. Most pilots out here set personal limits of when they should/should not fly. While I for one have not been to Hays, I have been to Independence KS (KIDP) and the area South and East of Hays on a long X-Country. At Hays, Runway 16/34 is 6500 x 100 ft while Runway 4/22 is 4500 x 75 ft...either plenty wide and long for a 182 to land in any configuration. The direct crosswind would have been coming at you from around 257T if landing on 16/34 (167T/347T). Using Runway 22 (228T) would have been much better giving you a 29 degree crosswind either direction (instead of 90 degrees)...yielding you 31 knots or so to work with within the maximum demonstrated crosswind component of 15 knots. Even then, a landing on 22 wouldn't be safe if the wind was gusting higher than that. Yes, Cessna POH charts reflect maximum "demonstrated" crosswind velocity while noting that 15 knots is "not a limitation", but it is there as a guideline for your and others safety. Yes, you landed without injury to yourself or others around you, but that should not condone such attempts. Just because one person pulled it off does not mean everybody else should be encouraged to attempt it too...high speeds and crosswinds are how people get killed or injured. I'm certain the NTSB would blame and find fault with any pilot for flying in the scenario described if one hurt/killed themselves or others attempting a takeoff/landing in unsafe conditions...simple fact. "Lady Luck" should only be called upon as a copilot during in-flight emergency situations. With 1-hour reserves and 120-150nm range, one would be hard pressed to justify not making a diversion elsewhere...even 35 years ago...to a airport that had no fuel if need be! Of all the Pilots, CFI, CFII, and Master Flight Instructors I know, they would never condone, support, or encourage such flying practices. I understand how your crosswind flying approaches work, but the risk factor goes up exponentially when pilots ignore or push beyond Operating Limitations and POH specs for your particular aircraft. Those limits are put in place to account for the unseen (ie. wind shear, structural integrity, etc). Beyond an emergency situation, there is no excuse to attempt such a landing...and not having "been there and done it" doesn't make one less of a pilot. In fact, I'd say it makes that pilot smarter and safer.

Lee, it may be easy for some of us to chide you over your example with 20/20 hindsight, so in that sense it may not be fair as we were not there at the time to see/experience existing conditions. Perhaps we lost something in communication and things sound worse than they actually were, but we're just going off what you said. What I think some of us are reacting to is that you 'seem' to encourage and support what many of us would consider reckless piloting and decision making. What you did is not safe, nor should it be promoted. Fair enough? Agree/disagree? You say you learned from the incident, but what exactly did you learn? Did you learn you can push the envelope and make unsafe situations work, thus reinforcing your approach to flying (ie. you would do it again), or did you learn from what happened and gained a new/healthy respect for wind and weather (ie. you would make changes in your preflighting and flying to ensure that situation never happened again)? GA/RC pilots alike, I think the latter is how we should all approach flying to keep people safe and incidents/accidents low. Otherwise, we risk forfeiting the existing freedoms we currently have in these industries. It just takes one careless person's mistake to have an industry regulated up the yingyang through the public at large. The F-18 crash over here at Miramar the other month is a good example of a situation where a pilots decision making and carelessness caused multiple deaths, the loss of a plane, and public outrage...all while the pilot survived. That situation shows us how we all need to be vigilant to make competent decisions, follow checklists and procedures, etc...instead of "pushing it".

I hope you get where I'm coming from. I'm not saying all this to badger you with criticism or judgment, but rather, I want to ensure this discussion is instructional in keeping operations and people safe...RC and GA. Thanks for your understanding!

Peter

Well, it seems a few of you have missed the point totally. My point in illustrating with first hand example a crosswind landing technique that works every time you try it. I will admit what I did that day in Hays KS might to some sound like it was careless and reckless, but I assure you it wasn't. The reason I made multiple attempts was make sure I could hold a track line that would work. Surprising as it may sound it was a very smooth touchdown. Great Bend was in mind if my third increase in airspeed didn't work. Out of thousands of landings that I have made it was a good example of what proper crosswind technique can do.
Peter in my opinion.. the maximum demonstrated crosswind component published by General Aviation aircraft manufactures doesn't reflect anything other than what the airplanes landing gear will withstand if a landing is totally blown.
Side Note:
I probably missed the FAA clear and concise written description of how crosswind landings are to be executed somewhere along the line. If any of you Hanger Queen pilots find that procedure in writing let me know. In all my years of flying, I only found one instructor that could teach and DO, to perfection a crosswind landing.
Anyway Matt, my suggestion is to keep the BobCat as clean as you can during a crosswind landing, and crabbing is not a good idea. Too many airplanes have been bent trying that one!
Lee