Ali
I too am guilty of one battery one switch...or why should I feel guilty....people get the warm fuzzys with the two batteries thats fine and I respect them for that. The mig you saw me with at top gun did not even have a five cell pack it was just a 4.8 2000 Ma. I think the cards are stacked in my favor more because I charge after every flight. I use the data logger after every flight...I replace the switches every 3 years. I use the best JR equipment. I keep it very simple for me...The jets are inspected daily. In ten years of jets this seems to work for me. I know my time is soon, now that we fly turbines almost daily...but until then no one can say I told ya so.

keep your chin up!

Justin Sands
BVM rep/ team JR/Horizon

Here you go chap










lozza

Sorry for your loss Ali.. that was a beautiful jet for sure (regardless of what SOME say about the paint scheme). For a long time when I was flying for JR I used the powerboxes, the battery systems, etc. but then I just decided to go simple, and handled my power redundancy with 2 batteries, into 2 switches, into 2 ports on the receiver. It's unlikely that both switches or batteries would quit, and if the receiver goes, well then it doesn't really matter if anything else is working anyway.

David, while your message may be well intentioned, your method and manner of delivery sucks.

Hi Chad
If you have a regime that works for you and you are comfortable with it then it is no ones right to say " I told you so " . You are doing what you beleive to be sufficient and you have a very good relieability record.

I used to seperate crashes into two categories
1) One that could have been avoided.
2) Ones that couldnt be avoided.
I realised a long time ago that really most crashes can be avoided and very few are unavoidable.

I have lost two plane in the last four years. both down to my own stupidity. If I lose a plane by dumb thumbing it in then I am bloody annoyed with myself. If I lose a plane because I got "launch happy, a NASA term I believe" and took off when I knew I had a potential problem then I would be even more annoyed with myself.
At the end of the day it is up to personal choice how far you go to get as close to ALARP as possible, it is your plane, your investment and your responsibility to ensure you take all reasonable steps to ensure your plane is airworthy. That includes not flying when your judgement could be impaired.

M

Ps I like the colour scheme althought a good friend of mine and Hunter worshipper will strike me off his Christmas card list for saying that.

I forgot to mention that I had a transmitter battery drop to 8volts during a flight. The alarm starting screaming and I was able to land without any problems. The transmitter battery lost a cell during a flight. Near disaster.
I also had a duralite transmitter battery pack fail just sitting in the garage, not even being charged. came in the next morning and it was melted.
Vivid reminders that the transmitter is only powered with one battery and one module.
Scott

For those that say you need to use an isolator in two battery systems to keep the good battery from draining into the faulted battery-Dont worry it does not happen. Red Schoefield in his battery clinic tested this a number of times. No need to introduce another component. - Just use two batteries, two switches into two ports on the receiver. Scotty

No problem, glad to help.

Chad

Ali,

Sorry to see that you're trying to catch me in the crash department! I thought I would be all alone in spectacular crashes!! I even gave you a DVD to keep you entertained with it! LOL

Bummer it had to be that model. Even though when you first told me about it I thought it was going to be hideous, I loved it when I saw the photos of the finished product!

Amazing, I had 2 batteries, powerbox, and I still couldn't prevent that mystery person from switching on at the Joe Nall 2 years ago! [:-]

Ali,

Again sorry for the loss, but posting pics of the crash was not a good move. Sure they are great pics from a photographic point of veiw, but as you well know as does anyone in the UK, it has been asked time and time again by the BMFA and press to refrain from doing this.

Also FWIW, having had a quick flick through the BMFA hand book on page 36 Section "MODELS BETWEEN 7kg AND 20kg" section (f). It does say bout checking batteries before each flight and advises on battery back-up systems to cope with the servo loads of larger models and I am assuming the Hunter was below 20Kgs.

Can I ask was the Hunter ever fitted with twin batteries and was the battery used on the day usually flown i the hunter and did you give it a check before flight? Just wondering as I know all to well that in the heat of the moment, sometimes we can overlook things as simple as that as "it worked last time" comes into play.

Also on other matther I see from the first pic that the turbine is still producing a good heat trail prior to impact, so I guess the turbine did not have the time to shut down.

Anyway, its all achedemic as you have pointed out that you are getting a bigger and better model anyway.

Now THAT was the most spectacular crash I've ever seen. Full scale or RC.

Go BIG or go home!

Hello,
I can understand your post and concerns, but the fact is that this is a hobby that accidents do and will happen, not posting pictures of a crash does not mean they don"t happen, and if the BMFA beleives crashes don"t happen, they have no idea about this hobby. Ali said he was not sure if it was battery related, he did say the battery checked out good after the crash, so a back up battery would have been useless. Ali has been around this hobby for a very long time as a owner and a pilot and I am sure he knows better than most of us when he builds a model, I myself is a fan of redundant batteries, but it does not mean my jets will not crash even if I have redundant power, a better chance of not happening, sure. I am sure when Ali finds out what happened, he will let eveyone know. ALi, I am also sorry about your jet.
Joe C!!

This is some thread Ali. Looking forward to seeing the even bigger bird and whatever paint job you decide to have it finished in.

Lots of ego's seem to be flying around from all areas of the universe it seems. As a group, domestically as well as worldwide, we all really need to stick together, that's really the only way we can insure progress and promotion of what we all enjoy here whether it be for sport or hobby. Here in the states? Join the JPO and stay informed, help one another out. Abroad?, join your equivalent, and around the world, help out one another either at your local flying field, event(s)or on here as some have shown even on this thread. It's very easy to voice opinions and views while sitting behind a computer monitor in who know(s) where, but one thing is certain, we ALL see what's being posted, positive, negative or neutral. Given the choice, I prefer to try to stay with the positive, only because given the amount of people I have met over the years all over the place, I can say without a doubt, more have been positive in their motivation to help others in this hobby/sport than negative. That way seems to work best for all of us.

As far as the title of this thread and crashes? I personally have seen a very well known group who travels to many of the shows stable of aircraft from a very well known manufacturer. They have all of their original jets, ducted fan through turbine that were made and still fly them just about every season, no crashes, just a little bit of hanger rash on a few and the rest almost in showroom condition. Does every jet really have a number? or do these guys know something many do not? I don't know, but if the former is true, they have'nt reached that number on any of their jets, and like they told me, they still fly all of them. To each as own. Like I say, the answer in my mind to either of these questions for me, is......."I don't know?"

I was ASKED to post the following photos again so I will. My F-14 that had virtually TWO of everything, including fire extinquishers during start up! Built by me, painted by me, flown by me for eight flights and CRASHED by me. Yep, PILOT ERROR. NO EXPLOSION, NO FIRE, just a roar to a halt in the grass and a big dust cloud.

Ali, best of luck with the rest of your fleet and your future replacement, get cracking on the next one, I know I am.

Keep it safe out there everyone, stay positive, stay focused..........because someone's Always watching.

Good Luck

Bryce Watson

Hi Joe,

Yes we all know accidents happen as do the BMFA and as does your AMA. However the BMFA have asked many times, with the support of other UK based model flying organisations and UK modelling press, to refrain from posting and publishing crash pictures as it has a negative bias towards the hobby/sport to the outsider . . . . that is all.

I know Ali has been in the hobby for years and know him personally, but that has nothing to do with anything in this context. He is a fantastic display pilot and has a wide range of nice models built for him, and more on the way by the looks of things (looking forward to seeing the HT Hunter and hope the tail futter problem has been sorted)

Joe C, I am glad you too, along with many others, including the BMFA (to who Ali fly’s under) advocate the use of redundant battery systems. I am not certain, but I think the JMA in the UK advocate this practice too. Besides that, with a model of this size, not to mention the cost of the model as a kit, the cost of the build and the cost of the paint job, surely the addition of something so simple as an extra battery in the R/C system is better than not fitting it and has come a a surprise to a lot of UK modellers that Ali chose not to fit the Hunter out this way.

I am even more surprised that in the event of a crash like this, it is just blown off as, "never mind, I have a bigger one being built for me right now" Surely this is not a good image to portray to the masses who log-in to RCU and other forums, when so many club level modellers consider us jet guys chequebook fly boys and elitist. Just something to consider I think with all this talk of being a good ambassador to the hobby stuff and encouraging new blood into the jet scene. . . . . . but this is just my thoughts having been around at UK shows seeing this happen all to many times and seen the results of such comments. Just something to consider I would hope.

Bryce,

Do you have any larger pictures of the F-14??

LOL! Trust me my first reaction when seeing the size of that pic was, What the....?

I am not excited about posting these, but some feel that it is important because it was a twin turbine with redundant everything that crashed at high speed, wings swept, at full-throttle. There was no explosion, no fire, 18+K, and hundreds of hours of work down the drain. Lessons were learned, mistakes never to be made again, and life goes on.........SAFELY. Every jet crash is not a fire or explosion, especially if precautions are taken during building, setup, flying and in the event of a problem, crashing. However, as has been seen many times before, even in the unlikely event that there is some type of ignition, there is usually never more than a bright light show for a couple of seconds and the event is extremely localized.

So let me try this again, hopefully they'll come out smaller, otherwise, you guys get the idea.

B

I had contemplated not posting these crash pics. One reason was the image it may portray, the other was that I knew to a degree that it would start some debate which may in turn get heated in some way.
There were many reason why I did it in the end of which I will try to list some of the key ones.
1) I knew that this crash would get out. I have found that in this hobby/ industry that bad news travels much faster than good. In fact my mother of all people knew about the crash the very next day ( Sunday ) Thats despite the fact that I did not see her or speak to her till Monday.. My father was attending a show on the Sunday and was told by more than one person about the crash, both of which had different accounts of what happened and why. The way I see it the facts are far better coming from me direct than by a series of Chinese whispers, which would distort the truth for sure.
2) I wanted to show that this sort of thing happens to us all. I cant remember the last total loss of a jet model that I had. Now given the number of hours that I fly per year I am quite proud of that fact. I would like to ask you if you have ever lost a model for some unknown reason? Now think about how many hours pre year and how many types you fly. Then put that into context with the amount of flying that I do and the different types that I fly...
I also wanted to portray to those that have been in the same potion as I am that there is no need to give up and be too despondent.
3) I wanted to show that I have tried the multiple redundancy route with my installs and the single systems, and that I have lost models on both ( I lost a c-arf lightning that used a weatronic system for no known reason. Now show me a more secure system with more redundancy built in than that?? )
4) I hoped that despite the ferocity of the crash people could see that it happened in a safe zone. A great distance from any body or anything. Despite the flash fire at point of impact there was minimal damage to the surrounding area and not even any burning of the model parts.

As for posting photos of the crash and the BMFA... What a crock of **** that is. Are you telling me that anyone wanting to find crash photos of model aircraft wouldnt know how to use google You tube? Have you ever punched in " Model jet crash" Into either of these services? Oh and out of interest JRSX have you seen the back page of this months RCME ( The uk best selling model magazine) ? Can any of you guess what the full page colour photo that closes the magazine is of?????

As for the equipment choice... Despite having models built for me, I do also build some of my models and install most of them. Not a great advert here I know but I just thought I would nip that " He has a wide range of models built for him" Comment in the bud right now. I did all of the install on the hunter. Every item ( as with all my models ) was brand new and the best that I could source. As I mentioned before I have tried the best of both non redundant system installs, and those with the very most redundancy built in. Both now with good and bad results.
The Hunter was powered by a single 6 volt 3300 mah sub c NImh pack. It had performed faultlessly from charge one. On the first cycle ( While I was installing the model ) I managed to get a reading of 3450 mah into the pack. I charged it before I flew and it peaked at a satisfactory voltage ( I cant remember what it was but I do check my chargers as I take packs off )
Even as of last night the battery checked out Ok under a 2 amp load.
As I said I knew that I would have some defending to do when I posted this thread. Yes I got a little out of shape with being refereed to as dumb. Sure I am no Einstein, or better still a ex Airline or Raf Pilot. But This toy plane business is my life. I live it everyday, and everyday I am flying a model, working on a model or planning the next model. A loss like this sets me and my business back substantially. So I greatly resent the merest suggestion that this crash may have been down to me being dumb. I do everything I can to prevent my models from crashing I have tried and tested pretty much every system out there, and had mixed results up till now. Up till the hunter I was having good success with keep it simple route. Now I have decided that all of my high end models will be equipped with the new Powerbox royal with twin 12ch Rx's. But then I think to myself why the high end models only. A model like my reaction for example only has one less servo than the hunter. Surely such a powerbox would be overkill in that?? Then we have the possibility of a tx failure.... where does it all stop.

Ali, Sorry for your loss man. Even I liked that Hunter scheme!

Let me add a little on the whole historic BMFA thing, as I was on Council when it first reaered it's head. From memory a club at the time had had a picture on it's website of a crashed model used against them in a planning application and were too weak to defend it. The BMFA did what it does best and over-reacted to the point of scaremongering.
My attutude to it has always been (and always will be) that model aeroplanes crash. Live with it.
Sometimes the crash is on a car, house or even a person but mostly on nothing in the middle of nowhere and responsible pilots strive to ensure that it is always so.
It is pointless trying to defend against it. Joe Publics view is that they EXPECT models to crash and are almost dissappointed when they don't.
Publish and be damned. It's a great sequence and I wish I'd got them.

Andy Ellison

I have been flying models now for more years than I care to remember (about 48), both for fun, then business, and now for fun again. At no time have I fitted a double battery system to ANY model, large or small. (I never build models over the limit requiring 2 systems).
The only concession I have is 2 switches taken from the same battery pack, feeding into either end of the rx bus.
In all the years of flying I can say that I have never had a crash as a result of a battery failure! In fact I would say 80% have been down to me in one way or another.
Like Sandslx, I charge may batteries every flight on turbines, and every 3 or 4 on other model types.
I use NMH packs as standard, have done for years.
I cycle my packs once a month and monitor capacity, if it starts to drop, the pack gets replaced.

I have to say, I am with Ali on this one, KISS as far as I am concerned. IMHO

Each to his own of course.

Paul

Hello Ali

Sad to see that crash. In my opinion, paint your new hunter in the same colours because right now its Hunter 1 - Ali 0 and if you like the yellow and black hunter, well just build a second one, thats what I would do

Your hunter was the best colours I have seen on a hunter and I would personaly choose them if I had a hunter.

Regards
Paul

As a guy that has been in the hobby on and off for over thirty years, has once owned a modelling shop, and is just breaking into the jet scene with my first Boomerang Intro, although I am no expert flyer as I don’t get much time to go flying, I have always looked at people like Ali with respect, I have watched that man flying models for many years, and is only the second time I have seen him loose a model, the first an aerobatic job that suffered from overheating of the electronics through the sun on the canopy on a boiling hot mid summers day.
I would trust that guy to fly my most expensive model, likewise as friends of mine have done with their 12 grand models.
I have got the bug to have a go at jets after Ali gave me a go on his XL on a buddy box, something I am forever grateful for. And sorry to say that I agree that you are totally out of order for putting that post on here, okay Ali had a jet go in, but by posting what happened it opened it up to an interesting discussion on what could have caused the crash.

My friend, who is an excellent builder and installer, had an XL, which was superb, with a Weatronics 35mg system dual batteries etc. etc. all the best gear, it had 36 flights on the clock without a problem or a glitch. Last summer he decided to change over to a Powerbox 2.4 system and flew it at a show before the old gear rip out, low and behold on the last flight on the Sunday it locked out and he lost it! Just goes to show, as someone else said, you can loose them no matter what you do.

So Mr. Gladwin, I’d say an apology was in order! [>:]

Happy to accept your apologies !!

I have a detailed response in the pipeline !!

Now, in addition, would you like a collation of all the emails and PMs I have had about this issue ? You and others may not like the content.

So Buckerboy (whatever your real name) I am not interested in trading insults (you may have an edge on me here) but discussing the technical issues to a serious crash with the intention of preventing a recurrence. Do you have anything of substance to contribute ?

Regards.



In the meantime, extracted from www.rcbatteryclinic.com, a veritable mine of expert information on batteries:

The use of redundant parallel fight packs (packs may be of different capacity but MUST be of an equal number of cells) is an excellent way to increase the available flight time and significantly improve the reliability of the on power system. The simplest means is to run two complete wiring harness, switches and charge jacks from each pack and plug one into the normal battery port and the other into an extra channel on the receiver. No diodes or isolation is required (see below). This is simpler and more reliable than some of the complex battery backup systems being offered on the market. Whether you are using 4 or 5 cells is your option, remembering that a 5 cell pack will provide more power to the servos but at the same time discharge faster giving you less flight time.

To Mr Gladwin
I don't know you at all so have no axe to grind but the way you write your posts are so condisending and sound so elitetist that i feel if i had to ask you for advise i would come away wondering why i bothered.
People like Ali and a whole lot more people inspire would be jet pilots with their aproachability and help they give without sounding as if they know it all.
You may know or think you know more than anyone else on this subject but their is no need to come across as offensive as you do.
Sorry if you think i am being offensive to you but as i say, i don't know you so can only know what your words sound like on here.
Simon.

David,
I cant understand you comment regarding the PM's Am I the only one that reads it as a threat that will in some way validate your point/ opinions Or be derogatory to me in some way? if so please go ahead post them away. Please excuse me if I read it the wrong way but thats certainly how its coming cross right now.

David,

What you are posting there is simply another 'view' and 'opinion' (rcbatteryclinic's). It is not gospel. I am sure Emmerich at Powerbox, Emcotec, Weatronic, ACT etc etc will all argue their way of doing things is the best. Just more opinions.

I understand what you are saying about redundancy. I am a fan too as you probably know. Nearly all my models sport the PB Royal, those that don't have another PowerBox model. That's simply MY choice and MY way of doing things. Is it THE way to do it? Probably not - many will argue. THE answer doesn't exist - if it did we'd all do the same and there would be 1 product (or not) on the market!! BUT it gives me piece of mind when I fly and that is what everyone's equipment choices give them. You shouldn't tell them their choice is wrong as you don't know who is actually right!

I think the flak you are getting is not actually what you are saying but the way it is said. It seems you believe that 'your' way is 'the' way and those that don't agree are either dumb or risking everyone's safety and the future of the hobby. Your arguments would hold a lot more weight (with me at least) if you could get your view across whilst also seemingly respecting others' choices. (I assume you do!?)

I would also point out that I have been far more worried about poor flying risking this hobby than equipment failures due to no redundancy. I don't go to many events/fly-ins but I have still seen some shocking flying that could end in more disasters than any risk or putting 1 or 2 RXs or RX packs in the model. I bet a hell of a lot of 'equipment failures' are actually pilot error. Not to dwell on the point but if you, with your views on safety and redundancy, can put a model jet through a hangar due to pilot error (and I respect you admitting that) then maybe we should be worried more about general flying standards?!

I can assure you I would consider there to be less of a 'safety risk' with Al flying his Hunter on 1 pack that some people I see flying a Boomerang with all the redundancy in the world!! If the real argument or axe to grind here is why risk such an expensive model with no redundancy then that is Al's decision and his decision only. He paid the price but I bet every model I have he didn't go and fly that 'worried about only having 1 pack' as that setup has worked well for him which takes me full circle to my comment about what choices people make to put their minds at rest when flying around $10,000 of toy!

Respectfully,
Mark