First, I agree that Andy got screwed, and that he has the right to vent & warn others of his misfortune. But what he's done by running three separate threads is unnecessary, and has moved him clearly into manufacturer bashing (which is not allowed in RCU), and trying to create a lynch-mob mentality. This has no place in RCU.

Based on several of the replies in his threads, he's not alone. Andy was offered a deal by FEJ , but he’s chosen not to accept it (I doubt I would have either). We as consumers should not be sold sub-par products (especially for the prices we pay at this end of the hobby), and if the product sold is found to be defective, the manufacturer should be held responsible for replacing those parts. There are several jet retailers & manufacturers out there that go out of their way to produce high end products for us, but there are also those that don't. Don't forget that we do live in a "buyer beware" world!

It is in my opinion, however, that he's made his point, and to allow the bashing & complaining to continue is not serving Andy or the jet community well. The appropriate information is still available in the threads for all to read.

Second, some of you have accused me via PM that I’m a rep for FEJ & that I’m covering for them. Let me say this clearly I AM NOT A REP, RETAILER, OR OWNER OF ANY FLY EAGLE JET PRODUCTS! I have not been a rep or retailer for any products since I closed the doors on Vertical Hobbies almost three years ago. Hell, I can barely find enough time to fly the stuff I do have (just ask the Cali guys who think I dropped off the face of the earth ).

Enjoy the Hobby & fly safe.

Brg,
Mark

Well said Mark. You have a tough job and my full support. Scotty

Been in your shoes Mark, I agree with the closing. Sad part is, these are model airplanes, they are all prone to failure. Fly jets long enough, sooner or later you will have a component failure, be it airframe, pipe, engine, servo's etc. Horizon isn't going to replace a jet because a servo failed. I've seen multiple threads over the years on airframes that failed, engines that failed etc, and not once do I remember a manufacture replacing an entire kit, I believe once or twice discounts were offered, but to feel that the manufacture OWE'S you is not right. These are products sold with the end user being the one to assemble and inspect all components.
I think it sucks that Andy lost his jet, I truly do. But I do not blame FEJ's one bit for not giving him a free kit.
Tom Cook told me once "If you aren't willing to set fire to the cash it takes to buy this jet, you're not ready for jets"
I think there is probably a lot of truth in that statement.

No the same when the model sold is already on fire.

Can't have it both ways[X(] If he got screwed by FEJ, then FEJ should be expected to remedy the situation. if you don't blame FEJ, then who it's to blame?
This was not an old plane. He should not be expected to take the hit as if were monopoly money.

To me I think it depends on what RCU considers "manufacturer bashing." I looked around a bit but couldn't find the official policy to read...

I never really thought that the deal that Andy made with FEJ was apropos to the discussion and he probably should have left that out - I just ignored it. He also should have avoided "bumping" the thread just to keep it alive. On the flip side, I think that FEJ's aircraft have some serious problems, some of which, like these pipe issues, are safety related. In the interest of the community, both for safety reasons, and for "consumer reports" reasons, this information should be made available *and* updated as it changes. That includes a running count of how many guys have experienced pipe failures in FEJ planes. If guys can come on RCU and say that "failures are just part of the game, live with it, FEJ jets are great," then others should have the right to come on and say "FEJ pipes are junk and a hazard to your airplane (and those flying with you...), here's how many have failed..."

If the bickering in some of the posts bothered you or some of the comments bordered on "manufacturer bashing", then edit them out, but closing down the thread completely was heavy-handed, in my opinion.

Bob

Bob, you had a bad plane, I had the exact same model and it was just fine. Not the issue. The issue was first one thread, then another and finally a third. That along with his constant shill bumping to the top and enough is enough. IMO it was blatant manufacturer bashing . It had run its course. Scotty

Bob I agree with your comments in relation to safety, as I have stated in previous threads this pipe problem is an issue and for james to get on the closed site now and state that FEJ are now and I highlight now are trying to improve there products is telling us that a problem does exist. you know at test pilot school if a part of and aircraft is put under stress it is evaluated as to wether it can take it or it is re-engineered or replaced FEJ have taken a stab at what looks right and left it at that.
Andy has made valuable points and taken the critisism for his efforts, he has made people more alert to a problem that is now maybe being corrected, as I have said it is now in the back of my mind what my thrust pipe is like, and again people on the threads have said that tams and skymaster are good, again if FEJ have been reading Andys thread the problem with there pipes should have been solved a long time ago, theres obviuosly is no competition out there.

cheers
Todd

But did he really get screwed? I mean honestly, take a look at every large kit or arf manufacture out there, they ALL have a disclaimer that says something along the lines of:

"XXXX models warrants this product to be free from defects, if a defect is found please return the unused part for replacement."

as well as something usually along the lines of:

"XXXX Models cannot control the final assembly and use of this model, it is up to the user to ensure that this model is assembled and operated in a safe manner"

Sure you can call those blanket statements, but they are what they are. Looking at the pipe in Andy's jet, is it something that could have been looked at before installation and discovered? Or should it have been removed after the hot start and inspected? Maybe yes, maybe no. I am not pointing fingers at Andy in any way here, but there have been many other models over time that have come apart and been destroyed, there have been many that have been destroyed because of an electrical problem or some other issue.

FEJ's offered him a 40% discount off a kit, I don't know of ANY manufacture that would offer a free kit.

In the last few years, I remember a few threads about airplanes that came apart seemingly due to "manufacture defects". A Super Bandit wing spar failure, a Skymaster F18 wing delamination, a Boomerang XL wing to fuse joint failure, a couple of lost Eurosports due to the rear hatches blowing off when installed as per instructions. I don't think ANY of those people received a free kit. Just like Andy's pipe, none of those incidents were things that you expect to be a problem, none of them SHOULD have happened, and all of them probably could have been avoided with a thorough inspection BUT, we don't buy these models under the assumption that we have to disassemble them after every flight to check every part.
The manufacture has no control over how the airplane is finished, the Super Bandit may have had the spar compromised during the build, the Skymaster F18 might have had the wing dropped at some point, the Boomerang had an incorrect glue joint, the Eurosports maybe had the threads in the bolt holes worn, who knows, maybe Andy's pipe would have lasted fine or at least given some warning if there hadn't been a wet start, maybe something else occured (note that I am NOT stating any of the above as FACTS for the failure, only could have been's). If the manufacture starts giving away replacement airplanes, everyone who loses an airplane is going to expect a replacement, "My airplane failed when it hit the ground, I want a new one".....

What Andy's threads have done is brought awareness to us about the pipes, I thank him for that, I have a Large Liberty coming, I will check the pipe very closely, and if I am not 100% satisfied, I will get a pipe from Tam, had this not happened with Andy's jet, I would probably have just run it without checking anything, not smart, but probably what would have happened. However, the multiple threads have created what appears as a witch hunt, it has become manufacture bashing.

I hope that FEJ's have fixed the pipes, but for myself, the airplanes are still priced good enough, that even if I have to buy a pipe from Tam, I'm still happy.
Just my opinion.

Well done !
it was about time some one put an end to it , I do feel sory for his loss but things can go wrong.

Andreas

Ye reeps what ye sow.
If ye sow grass seed, ye get grass.
If ye don't sow grass seed, ye get ripped on by Andy.

Long live dirt!

I don't know what other threads he started , but I started one and it was shut down in hours. pure censorship.i guess freedom to speak in dead. I never bashed anyone I just asked why the pipe forum was ended. I'd like to know what constitutes bashing.

BRAVO !!!!!!!!

All I can say is that I will abide by the wishes of the moderators (afterall, this is a privately owned board and they have every right to moderate it in any way they see fit). I tried my best to get FEJ to own up to the defects by at least meeting me half way on the loss. But they had other ideas. Moreover, as a contumacious person and as a result of the loss, it inspired me to continue to warn people about these defective pipes, which btw continue to be a problem as we speak.

So, all I can do now is politely warn people who are interested in FEJ jets to severly inspect their pipes before using them. They need to get a mirror and inspect all internal welds especially on bifricated pipes. Also you need to wiggle the ends to see if they fall apart. I wouldn't have even thought to do this on my F18. There are some welds that cannot be inspected because they are hidden from veiw. Not much you can do there other than hope to God they won't fail if they get a little hot.

At the least, others have benifited from this discussion. That is a fact regardless of the naysayers.

I agree with Scotty..... There are far more interesting threads to read in this forum than the "Bobber" thread that keeps coming back to the surface.... It has been discussed and discussed and discussed some more. Thank you Mark and fellow mods for letting that one RIP.

what? who lost a jet? never saw thread, um threads. barry

Mark when are you going to get away from here and come burn some more Kero with us? Are we going to have to wait till the Jet Fly in October to see you again?

So the other thread was closed........ And now (This) another one is started........ Can't help but smile

Hi,

I definitely think Andy had an axe to grind, sure. I also think that his Javert-type pursuit of FEJ was getting old BUT unless he was posting information that was UNTRUE, shutting the thread down was just unnecessary. We are, after all, big boys here and have God's gift of free moral agency with which we can TUNE OUT or choose not to read the thread. I don't need to be protected from knowing how many pipes have failed by RCU. As far as I'm concerned, Andy's motives have nothing whatsoever to do with anything...provided his information is true and accurate.

Also, this notion of the end user being expected to figure out for himself whether or not a product is airworthy is, in my humble opinion, mostly absurd. I say mostly because of course there is some expectation of that. Do you really think, however, that some newbie should know at a glance if a pipe is suitable or not?? He shouldn't expect that the pipe will do what it's commonly accepted to be designed to do?? Puh-leeze....

I hope FEJ gets those issued sorted, because they have some very slick looking jets. I know where to get good pipes from, so if I ever buy one, I know what to do. For that reason, I am grateful to Andy. I hope that if they do right by a customer (or make an honest, good-faith effort to), they'll get cut a little slack by that customer. It seems in this case, however, that Andy has proven to a reasonable person's satisfaction, that there was a COMMON issue with the pipe that probably killed his plane. With this common-sense evidence illuminated, I do not think that 40% off a new plane is a good enough settlement and therefor don't blame Andy a bit for not being satisfied with it. Just my $.02

In my opinion the counting of all FEJ pipe failures did not make real sense in the first place. You never know if those planes mentioned have been built / maintained appropriately. We all know there is a lot one can do wrong. Not saying that this was the case with Andy's F-18 but there is still too much room for guessing. I always double&triple check everything on my planes, particularly when I know that I bought "cheap". I exchanged a Feibao pipe because it looked like it got too hot, so I am better safe than sorry right?

One of the failures mentioned in one of the threads made me think:

´1 F15 1/9, with merlin 160 pipe failure after 3 fligth, serious damage on the rear'

No idea if it makes sense to build a 160N engine in a plane which was designed around 60-80N engines. I think it doesn't I dont think that I can blame the manufacturer when I mount a ferrari engine into a volkswagen and the brakes fail at some point. [8D]

FEJ would make a big mistake giving in anyways after all this bashing. It would just show that tons public ranting is enough to get a free kit once someone vaporized their jet.

Sorry, but a 1/9 F-15 won't even get off the ground with a 60N engine and its underpowered with an 80N engine. This aircraft is a 120N machine and 160N, while at the upper end of what's reasonable, is not an unreasonable engine for this plane.

I'll ask you the same question that I ask everyone that comes to their defense, how many FEJ aircraft have *you* built and flown, and how many times?

Bob

I agree bob, I was wrong on the manufacturer specs on the 1/9 F-15 - sorry for the confusion. Still i believe that overpowering a plane can result in pipe failure as well, which was all I wanted to say.

[quote]ORIGINAL: Hajo77

In my opinion the counting of all FEJ pipe failures did not make real sense in the first place.


that's because you didn't loose a plane.

This also causes pipe failure!!!

It can also cause melted servo wires, Fiberglass distortion, melted air lines...