ira d

KC that would never happen and you know it. In fact I thought you were talking about a in flight emergency also. As far as the waiver thing I think the AMA
should strickly enforce the rules for waiver sign off so that everyone is on the same page.

KC36330

sorry but neither AMA nor anyone else can force me to sign anyone off. i guess it comes from 30 yrs of putting my name in the log book of too many full scale jets and helis that if i sign it, you better damn sure believe it's right, and IMO (and I'm entitled to that opinion) I'm not going to sign anyone off who isn't flying a turbine powered aircraft as without one you absolutely can not show your competence and ability to use and fly a turbine powered aircraft.

KC36330

if i look at things from your point of view.........why would that never happen? the guy can fly a Cessna, it's capable of 100mph, it's got flaps and brakes, no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to fly the triple 7 with passengers right? maybe even a B2 with a few nukes under the bottom, the possibilities are endless...........

alasdair

Some of the "rules" quoted above don't make a lot of sense. Some say the model HAS to have flaps, retracts, brakes, some say it must have a turbine, in order to qualify for a waiver.
Sweetpea01 has made a good point. I'm onto my fourth jet, and it's my first with retracts!!

I started with a Boomerang Intro with fixed gear, no wheel brakes, but with flap.

Then I had a moulded C-ARF Rookie 2, with fixed gear, no brakes, no flaps,

Then an O/D, again fixed gear but with flaps. Now I'm flying a C-ARF Lightning with everything.

In the light of this experience it's the TURBINE that matters, not the flaps'n'wheels

(BTW in the UK we don't need wheelbrakes, or a waiver for that matter)

I side with the guys who say you should use a turbine model to do the test, but you need to allow some flexibility for the poor chap who lives out in the sticks and wants to be the first turbine flier in his area. He can't legally fly a turbine without a waiver and how can he get a waiver without a turbine?

So, SinCity Chad (and others) how does the AMA cope with a lone jet flier? How can he get a waiver, using a jet, if he has no jet flying friends or CD within range?

Boomerang1

It's a bit different in Oz. Here it's the plane/pilot combo that's tested & each model has a different 'MOP' (manual of procedures) certificate. The pilot has to demonstrate he is comfortable with each particular model, sort of like full size endorsements on different aircraft.

This acknowledges that, for example, a twin turbine F-18 would be more of a handfull than a Baby Boomerang. - John.

KC36330

you make arrangements to get signed off by someone or find a somewhat local jet event and take a trip, then be thankful that they dropped the renewal process so new folks only have to take the trip once.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

OK Moderators...who is deleting all of the posts here and why are you doing it?

Guys are having a great time disguising this topic, no one is flaming anyone and boom...you are nuking post after post.

What gives?

B

KC36330

i'll vote MLaCoste, seams to love the powers of moderation here lately.

MLaCoste

My Feedback: (15)

Actually, it was me.

You guys have the great power of pulling tickets for OFF TOPIC posts, yet love to do it yourselves as you see fit.

Your bantering about full size aviation has absolutely no connection with acquiring a turbine waiver.

Stick to the subject.

Brg,
Mark

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

As I figured...

B

Aero65

My Feedback: (2)

Hi Everyone

Two part post First from the Ama turbine regs

An AMA member may be permitted to fly a turbine powered model on the slave transmitter of a
buddy box as long as the master transmitter is operated by an experienced turbine pilot. All
turbine waiver applicants should have accomplished at least 50 flights on a high performance
model.
Fixed wing: model should be capable of sustained speeds of 100 mph or higher.
Rotary wing: model should have a 0.60 cubic inch displacement or larger, capable of
50 mph forward flight speeds and advanced aerobatics.
Control line: model requires a pull test of 55 pounds or more, as described in the current CL
Scale Competition Rules
The applying pilot will successfully perform a qualification flight consisting of all flight
maneuvers from the Turbine Applicant Flight Demonstration under the supervision of two
experienced turbine pilots, one of whom is a contest director. A Designated Helicopter Contest
Director is required for rotary wing applicants.
The qualification flight shall be completed by one of the following two methods:
1) Fixed wing: Using a model capable of sustained speeds of 100mph or higher;
Rotary wing: Using a helicopter with 0.60 cubic inch displacement or larger, capable of
50 mph forward flight speed;
Control line: Using a model requiring a pull test of 55 pounds or more, as described in
the current CL Scale Competition Rules.
or
2) For fixed wing and rotary wing only: The qualification flight will be performed with a
turbine powered model. The applicant must first have flown the turbine powered model on a
buddy box with an experienced turbine pilot in control of the master transmitter. The
experienced turbine pilot will assist the applicant with as many flights as necessary until he is
satisfied that the applicant is prepared for the qualification flight after which the experienced
turbine pilot will declare the applicant qualified to perform the qualification flight flying solo
without buddy box assistance.
Following the successful completion of the qualification test flight the pilot will then submit
the Turbine Waiver Application as proof of compliance with the above pilot requirements.
The first five solo flights shall be supervised by an experienced turbine pilot. The pilot must
instruct the supervising individual on how to perform an emergency shutdown of the turbine
in flight from the pilot’s transmitter and the supervising individual must be empowered by
the pilot to shut the turbine down in flight in the event of a loss of control emergency. The
following guidelines will apply to the first five fixed wing flights:
 Airspeed shall be maintained under 175 mph.
 Flight operation should be limited to single engine turbine airplanes.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

My oh my...

[quote]ORIGINAL: Aero65

Hi Everyone

Bla bla bla bla bla...>>>For fixed wing..."The qualification flight will be performed with a
turbine powered model" bla bla bla bla bla

Aero65

My Feedback: (2)

Ok the only requirement I see here is fixed wing over 100 mph.

I beleve that as Contest directors representing the AMA and enforcing some of its rules and regs we need to consider that If a member follows the rules how can you exclude him from getting a waiver?

How about the flyer that wants to see if he can get his waiver before he gets his turbine? It is an expensive purchase and if you are not even qualified yet to fly it how can you spend all that money hoping that you will get signed off?

There are plenty of opportunites to read and learn from the internet about turbine operations, remember it's just another powerplant and i agree with an earlier post that it's not hard to learn the proper operation, and saftey procedures for turbine operation.

As a turbine CD, Im willing to help people understand and get into our phase of the hobby. I don't think that we should make it a cakewalk to get a waiver, but use our judgement to see if the flyer can fly a fast heavy aircraft, has common saftey sense, and has done his homework on the operation of turbine aircaft. Make the standard a known factor, follow the rules and have high saftey expectations, I beleive that is a fair way of doing things.

edit spelling sorry

meps

My Feedback: (10)

It clearly states either method 1 OR method 2. It DOES NOT state ONLY method 2.
Steve

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Oops...good point!

Beave

grbaker

My Feedback: (29)

And how many of us received our waivers before the buddy box rule? Some people have short memories. Most of us complained about having to get a waiver, since no one else in the hobby has to. So now that "WE" have waivers, lets make it harder for the new guys.

I dont know about you, but starting a prop plane is about the most dangerous thing you can do in this hobby. You can watch someone else start one and tell if they are safety conscious or not. Their flight performance will tell you if they are safe in the air. Ask them all the questions you want about turbine operation. If they don't answer correctly, then don't sign them off.

Our first turbine model is the most expensive step most of us have ever taken. So what you're saying is that if I'm a jet newbie and I want a waiver but I don't personally know a pilot with a waiver, I have to go ask someone I don't know, if they will buddy box my pride and joy. Even though the waivered pilot may not be as good a pilot as me.

I hope no one looses their first jet because the waivered guy they pick to fly their new jet is having a bad day.

AndyAndrews

Its not that you can prove that you are safe in handling what ever you are handling. Its whether or not you know how to properly start a turbine, shut it down, handle wet starts, know to have the proper gear etc., ie safety related to turbines - not props.

Comparing it to a prop is not a good comparison. Each has its own safety requirements. One not being any better or safer than the other. Its just that they are different and require different knowledge.

I think it is very prudent to make sure that a guy knows how to handle a turbine on the ground before signing off on the waiver.

Andy

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Hi Gary,

I agree 100%


Unfortunately it has happened, once I know for sure and I am sure other times.

FILE IFR

Very interesting views from the 'prop is OK' and 'turbine only' guys.

... I wish I started a poll[:@]

Just a side question here, What was the most (if any) sub-standard plane you've seen/heard arrive with an applicant to take the test, like a "foamy" EDF or the like...and of course get turned away?

ira d

You are so correct in fact I dont know why you would bother to state the obvious. But what the AMA can do is tell all CD's to follow the current rules and
not make up your own or you will loose your CD status.

KC36330

the application isn't rules, it's my signature saying that as a waiver holding CD i have witnessed the applicant demonstrate their skills, knowledge, and understanding of how to safely operate and fly a turbine model aircraft. myself i find it hard for anyone to demonstrate there abilities related to a turbine powered aircraft when said aircraft isn't turbine powered. I'm also stating that the applicant has demonstrated proper turbine ground handeling.......again how can you do that with a prop plane?

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

KC,

You are 100% correct in my opinion.



Beave

KC36330

with Mr Ego on the loose, soon, very soon.

KC36330

I have to ask, for those who have such strong objections to my choice of not signing you off with a prop job, what is it you have against flying the test with a turbine powered aircraft???

j.duncker

My Feedback: (2)

This an interesting thread but can I remind all posters that the thread starter asked this question

It is supposed to be about the above.

However IMHO the thread drift is within limits BUT GUYS PLEASE STAY CLOSE TO THE TOPIC AND DO NOT FLAME OTHER MEMBERS even though you may feel strongly about the subject.

J.Duncker RC Jets Moderator