TVAILLANCOURT

AS far as learning the TX to the ECU all the manual says is to follow the radio set up.I followed along and all is good there.No where in the manual does it say you must start the turbine and raise the throttle slowly to full throttle and back down slowly to idle.I was told this buy another turbine operator using a different turbine.Is this true do we have to raise the throttle slowly so the ecu can learn the travel limits??

I did not do this when I first got the turbine and it ran fine 145k full and 45k idle.So I don't believe we have to do this procedure with the kingtech.

If we do please confirm.
Thanks

mavrick

My Feedback: (1)

HI TVA
I have 2 K80's and run both with 7.4 Lipo's with no issue's
BRG
Mav

Jgwright

Hi Tva

You must have the ECU set up correctly because you have the right values for throttle at idle and full throttle. There is no need to raise and lower the throttle slowly when setting the values, it is just learning the full throttle, idel and off positions. When you run the engine up to full power for the first time it can take a little while to reach it as it learns how much fuel is required for the throttle position.

The only thing you have not told us is what the PW is at idle and full power. If the PW is high there is a restriction in the fuel supply somewhere.

Have you re-run the engine with clean fuel and filter and UAT renewed? I too have seen a few of these engines and all have run great.

John

TVAILLANCOURT

Sorry I do not have PW values.I did not even think to write that down.I will for next run thanks for that info.

TVAILLANCOURT

Hello John.I was able to be present while my friend test ran his K-80 today.
Idle rpm 57800
full rpm 138700
pump @ idle PW 87
pump@PW full rpm 312.

He was not able to reach 145k either.
I will test mine and see what PW numbers I get and compare.

kingair41

My Feedback: (13)

I just ran mine in my L-39. Reading this thread I noted the PW of the pump at full throttle. Mine was at PW 500. I did'nt notice it at idle though just full out. My rpm was at 142,000.

hooker53

My Feedback: (106)

Court, That is correct. If you have done what you need to do for the ECU on page 21 of the manuale, you do not need to run your throttle stick up to full again when you start-up. Sometimes with all turbine ECU's you have to learn the ECU your TX values a second time.

TVAILLANCOURT

Had a chance to run my buddies turbine again for a second run.
We did 2 test one with factory set ecu parameters and second run with Gaspar's recommended ecu parameters
Here is some data we recorded.
Outside temp was windy and -3

Factory setting first run
Pump PW idle 092 temp 370
Pump PW full throttle PW 462 temp 470
idle rpm comes down to 145300 then climbs to between 49000 and 60000
full rpm 143k

Gaspar setting first run
Pump PW idle 87
Pump PW full throttle PW 312
idle rpm 57800
full rpm 138700 to 140000

Gaspar setting second run
Pump PW idle 82 temp 360
Pump PW full throttle PW 343 temp 414
idle rpm comes down to 45300 then climbs to between 49000 and 60000
full rpm is 145700

Running the turbine at full throttle for 30 seconds we see a slow rise to full rpm from 138000 finally reaching 145700 and holding.Is this normal to have to let the turbine run at full throttle for a bit and the ECU will make small adjustments in flow to reach 145k???

Problem is Idle is too high at 58000 to 60000

I will be testing mine again soon and we will compare data.I must say Gaspar's parameters are very good compared to the stock settings.

Here are the parameters that Gaspar fine tuned
as compared to the factory.
Normal run
Parameters
Full Power
145.000 rpm same as Gaspar
Idel speed
45.000 rpm same as Gaspar
Stop speed
30.000 Rpm same as Gaspar
Start/min temp
0100 C same as Gaspar
Max-Temperature
0850 C Gaspar 0800 C
Aceeleration
Delay 040 Gaspar 007
Decleration
Delay 015 Gaspar 003
Stability decay
100 Same as Gaspar
Pump limit
1020 Gaspar 500 stock pump flight works 652

Start
Parameters
Pump Start
Auto+2 Gaspar Auto+4
Pump start ramp
006 Gaspar 013
Glow power
40 Gaspar 30 if using lipo
Start gas adjust
085% Gaspar 070%
Low Battery Volts
6.0V same as Gaspar
Starter power at ignition
100 Gaspar 065
Ignition max RPM
04.000 RPM same as Gaspar
Ignition Min RPM
0.2000 RPM same as Gaspar
Preheat time
2.0 s same as Gaspar
RPM gas OFF
29.000 RPM Gaspar 15.000rpm
Starter power at Preheat
150 Gaspar 070
RPM 100% starter
Power:20.000 RPM Gaspar 25.000 rpm
RPM OFF starter
25.000 RPM Gaspar 28.000 RPM
Start mode
Auto-gas same as Gaspar

Here is the link to the video of Gaspar's set up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEC54QoiKdc

Starting the turbine is more smooth and decel is better.Try it out.

Now does anyone know how to adjust the idle lower?

Aero65

My Feedback: (2)

Hi Tvaillancourt

If your K80 is having trouble holding idle, usally that indicates a sticky pump. However you might also have issues with your fuel solenoid. Try running on the bench without fuel solenid and just use a manual shutoff valve. My friend and I had a turbine (another brand) that was driving us crazy with indications of a bad pump of fuel system. We were down to the solenoid, and thats what it turned out to be, it was malfunctioning and letting enough fuel through to run the turbine, however getting to full throttle was an issue and idle was not stable.

I have 2 K-80's and they run without issue, without being there most of this is really just guessing. I hope you figure it out.

Good luck and just make sure you have the proper emergency equipment

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

The clear differences between buying a Kingtech from Dreamworks or other suppliers.....
Our engines are reprogrammed for optimal performance and acceleration, test run and tweaked on our stand and packaged with ALL the components needed for install except a battery. If you purchase your engine through Dreamworks, they run perfect out of the box without the guess work... We also provide US based service!
Todd

JET FX

As they do from the other Kingtech suppliers! These are simply fine tuning tests given various install and operating environments....... Wow talk about self promoting

TVAILLANCOURT

Hello Todd.Thanks for the free plug of Dream works.Where I got the turbine from is not the issue.This turbine should work out of the box which it did. It did not need a tech to "tweak" it ,but when I installed it into my jet It would not run right.This is when I posted to find out what I did wrong.I bought this turbine to get experience with so in a way this is good that I have to do some guess work and get to play a little with the parameters.I like to know how my stuff works.I at no time said my turbine is defective or not running out of the box.I did something wrong with the set up into the jet somewhere in the fuel system and I'm trying to figure it out.

So Todd is your official statement on Kingtech that the are not going to work properly unless DREAM WORKS "tweak" them?

There should be no difference where one purchases the Kingtech it should just work from whomever you buy it from.What you are providing is just a free service which is cool but should not be needed.

I may buy the flightworks pump from you if the pump turns out to be bad.Have to wait test and see if it' the pump,solenoid,UAT, tank, or lines.I'm a noob to turbines so I don't mind messing with it to learn.

If you have something positive to add to this thread and my troubles please add,but don't come on here and bash me and my troubles because I did not buy my turbine from you!
Thanks to other who have helped.

Jgwright

Hi Tva

Glad to hear that you have some help from Gaspar. Don't get too carried away with the need to 'tweak' the settings though. The factory I am sure will have chosen settings that ensure all engines should run straight out of the box, taking account of differences in individual engines and in temperature and pressure of varying locations around the world. Car manufacturers do exactly the same with the car ECU. The main thing is that you now know the PW setting for 2 different pumps to achieve full power. Hopefully your next test will reveal if you have a restriction in the pipeworks somewhere. Your idle may well vary as the logic works out what fuel is needed. It can take a little while to establish the idle and max power. It can seem a bit uncomfortable to hold the throttle open for full power for 2 -3 minutes. If a pump is suspected of being 'sticky' run it for 1-2 hours on a closed loop with a tank on one cell or voltage of 2 volts.

John

Jetpilot24

My Feedback: (21)

TVA

The setting for the Stability delay is what controls how long it takes the motor to reach full RPM or Idel RPM. The Higher the number on this setting the longer it will take to stabilize. Your Acceleration Delay controls how quickly Fuel is pumped into your motor, once it is running, for it to start to come up on RPM, again the higher the number the longer it will take to start to come up of of Idle. The Deceleration delay controls how quicklly fuel is slowed down to bring the motor off of RPM. Again the higher the number the longer it will take to come down off of RPM..

Follow these steps.

On the test stand.
1 Reset to factory settings.
2 Relearn you TX before starting
3 Start turbine and let it idle for 5 mintes to "Learn the amount of PW to idel the motor"
4 bring your throttle up a little at a time, 4 to 6 clicks on the TX, stopping for 30 sec or so at each 4 to 6 clicks, up to full throttle
5 Let stabilize at full throttle
6 bring throttle down a little at a time, 4 to 6 clicks on the TX, Stopping for 30 sec or so at each 4 to 6 clicks, Down to idel.
take your readings. If all is well reinstall the motor back in the jet and do this procedure again.
This allows the ecu to "learn" the fuel system and how much PW is needed at a given position on the stick

Let us know.

Joe Lewis
KingTech Rep

hooker53

My Feedback: (106)

Court, What software is that you are using on Youtube and how is it hooked up? I would love to know more about this!! Thanks. Good stuff here!!

Shok

My Feedback: (28)

and LDS!

Gaspar

Just few comments:

1) The pump power (PW) readings you wrote are very different from one run to to other. This suggest a less than optimal fuel system (pump+solenoid+filter+tubes+tank)
2) The ecu calibrate the idle speed at startup, and memorize the PW value. If later the engine run at higher speed with same power to the pump, then the problem is in the fuel system.
3) If the deceleration is set too fast could cause that the combustion chamber chill (to cool), making the rpm to drop below idle. The ecu will correct this low speed by raising the minimum pump power.
4) My settings are for a FW200 pump. I haven't tested a KT80 pump, don't know how it behave,

Gaspar

Asif

My Feedback: (30)

Gaspar,
Thanks for your reply. Travis and I will test the pump and let you know. In my case I will try flight works pump and check the idle speed.
Regards
Asif

TVAILLANCOURT

Thanks so much for everyone's input.

hooker53:the program you see on youtube is not mine it is the Master ECU builder designer Gaspar's or as I call him "the man".

Gaspar the value you supplied of 0500 for pump limit is this correct for the stock pump?Your help and input is much appreciated.


Joe:So it is true what I was told about slowly raising the throttle to full and back down to idle to let the ECU learn the curve.Interesting

John:This new pump I will be testing has been run for 4 hours in a closed loop so that should rule out sticky pump.My friend on the other hand did not so that might account for his idle problem.

I will try all these suggestion and get some data.Thanks everyone I have learned a lot in a very short time

hooker53

My Feedback: (106)

Why not run your pump in on 7.2?? Just wondering!! Thanks

highhorse

My Feedback: (2)

In Todd's defense, these posts don't read as if the problems are due to installation errors. These posts read as if the engine ran poorly right out of the box on a test stand, and that you had to enlist Gaspar's help to change the factory settings to something workable.

Yes, Todd's post did sound self-serving. I'll grant that. But he is telling the truth in that not all of the K-80s (or any other engine) are going to run perfectly right out of the box, not all vendors' support is the same, and when you buy from Todd you KNOW that he has already run the darned thing.

And if you know THAT, then:
1) You are able to call an expert directly, live and in real-time, for help as you trouble-shoot the problem.
2) You aren't wasting $$ and time by swapping THREE pumps on a "sticky-pump-break-in" wild goose chase.
3) You have an immediate answer about battery compatibility
4) You are flying you new jet sooner with much less frustration !!

I know that Todd could have worded his post better, and if given the chance I'm sure he would. But as the saying goes "it ain't braggin' if it's the truth", and the truth is that he supports his cusomers well and is a HUGE asset in this hobby.

I sure hope U get yours and your friend's turbines running perfectly and truly regret that I am not expert enough to help out with any advice that hasn't already been offered, but I'm glad that Gaspar has weighed in to help out as his advice is obviously umimpeachable! I had pure misery getting my Super-Sport running (same ECU) and know the frustration you are going through. I chased supposed "installation errors" forever until I finally sent the whole mess back to Wren USA and got the ECU settings worked out. It seems that they were VERY screwed up right out of the box, so this obviously happens even with well established and reputable manufacturers. Support is everything.


I'm looking forward to reading the good news that the mysteries are solved and to learning what the culprit(s) were.

Thanks, Don.

JET FX

Nice save

In response: To me and no doubt to many others TVA's parameter comments simply DID sound like a straight forward factory V Gaspars comparison/testing for the K80...

No not all turbines run perfectly straight out of the box either, there are many variables that can effect this the most obvious being a variety of environmental conditions and different model installation's. Any factory authorized sales support outlet should be well and capable of assisting to optimize their customers individual setup, it's really not some mystical form of black art, sure experience comes into play and definetely not the select domain of just one 'single' vendor. As a dealer myself and knowing better I would never be so arrogant to claim such!!!

It really is a fact that "ALL" Kingtech turbines and most of the other well known quality turbine brands are indeed fully factory test run prior to shipping and matched to their ECU electronics. Some fine run tuning 'maybe' required depending on those mentioned variations as with "any" turbine. It is difficult to know in advance the "ideal" operating parameters for a given individual turbine engines installation and environment so the factories will generally test run and pre-program a slightly conservative run set-up. "ALL" Kingtech and other brand turbine factory dealers are fully aware of this....

Also TVA's run concerns are as he has admitted due to inexperience and not generally brand related. It appears his particular problems maybe fuel or fuel system related and with the assistance of fellow enthusiasts we will help him through and get it sorted via the internet. And NO I did not sell him his turbine either! I just want to assist as best I can from my own persoanl experiences and see a fellow flyer enjoy the hobby as much as I do.

So then lets get back on track and wait to here how he goes after he's done some further checking of his fuel and system [8D]

Cheers- Marty

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

Sorry if my post came off as self serving.... to be honest, I didnt read all of the content of this thread and was simply making a statement that we cover all these issues BEFORE an engine leaves our facility which is NOT provided by other vendors I am aware of. When you receive a Kingtech from Dreamworks, they are running optimal with no "Tweaking" required. I can assure you, the factory programing of the Gaspar FADEC is not any where near optimal for this engines performance capability. We know when an engine leaves our facility, it is running to perfection and our customer will have an enjoyable experience with the product.
Unfortunately, Kingtech has decided to take on as many dealers as possible and undercut even their own distributor to peddle engines, we chosen NOT to support engines that are purchased through other sources.
While regrettable, it is a stance we have been forced to take.
Todd

highhorse

My Feedback: (2)

Uhmmmm, OK. Absolutely no argument here about that ! The operative word is SHOULD. Not CAN. Not WILL.

Where is this poor fellow's vendor support if he must resort to this forum to get his engine running? All vendors are NOT created equal, apparently.

TVAILLANCOURT

If everyone would read my post I stated many times the turbine ran to spec out of the box.When I installed the turbine into the jet is when it did not run correct.I blame myself always first when something does not work as it should.I found out thanks to many what to look for.I have made all changes suggested and will test tomorrow.I'm confident that it will run to spec with these changes.

I posted the info of Gaspar's suggested parameters because Chaung (in charge at the factory) has adopted these parmeters into all the turbines ECU 's coming out of the factory today.It does start up way different and runs smooth.Well except for our small problem with fuel feed.

I chose to come post on here because of the amount of people Using the K-80's and to share or swap info.So far info has been great.

I don't really care about the comment that Todd made it's his opinion and he is entitled to it.I bought this turbine which is #0184 and is 1 of the first 2 K-80's into Canada.There is nobody in this country that has experience with this product so naturally I turned to this forum for help.

As a side note to my dealer.Asif has personally helped me trouble shoot and has been in close contact with Chaung at Kinhtech and Gaspar to fine tune these turbines .This is how I came about the information I supplied about Gaspar's parameter changes.I see Asif almost everyday so If anything I have the closest support available.Asif has many years experience in the turbine world and some of you may know him already .We both have one each to test and are in the process of fine tuning the k-80's for our location.So dealer support is not an issue.Just me being a noob is the problem

testing tomorrow I'm excited