quist

My Feedback: (198)

Unknown. Kevin called me and admitted that it was over 55lbs wet, but he has no way of weighing it.

morro

Well done on the flight Kev, good to see you got it down in one piece, as always it takes someone to make the first jump.
I have a mate who has bought the fej 18 same color scheme and the info and video you have supplied is valuable.
Just curious when people belittle a company like fej do they actually do the first initial testflight at there expense.??

regards
Todd

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Kevin,

Honestly, since the emergence of FEJ, it has been a cavalcade of poor quality kits put to market with little to no testing. Poor quality replacement parts to replace the already poor quality parts seems to continue. Your F-18 and the resulting issues (loose bulkheads, broken glue joints, the rudder and elevator issues) are clear evidence that FEJ has not improved very much, if not at all. My friends tail pipe issue two weeks ago with the FEJ F-16 is more evidence.

As my good friend Johnny used to say "Brother...it is what it is". I do not consider a quality jet one that requires weeks of rebuilding and repairs after one flight. Kevin, what you do not see is the danger that our hobby is imperiled with when manufacturers put out low quality jet kits to sell. Can you simply imagine what the repercussions will be for us all one day when a poorly designed and manufactured kit kills someone?

I imagine that since you are a rep you do not see this, and hopefully "the big one" won't ever happen but the chances are greatly increased with troubling reports like your first flight indicate.

Boli

hornetmex

My Feedback: (11)

Congratulations Kevin
maybe in 2/3 months my Large F18 jolly rogers scheme will be ready
for the maiden flight

Best Regards
Ramon

Kmarks

My Feedback: (36)

Hello All,

Here are a few things.

1. To Jim: The jet is probably over 55 lbs wet. I do not have the basic kit and that kit is said to be on the money. The kit I have has a few extra's and at the field I noticed it may be heavier then my F16 when we lifted it. I can tell because I have lifted my F16 and that is on the money. This jet is to big for me to lift and look at a scale. I called Tony Quist who is an AMA inspector and can inspect this jet and sign off if all is well. I called him by the way on my own accord to set up an appointment when I get things sorted out. Cool your trying to throw me under the bus attitude, It will be taken care of. Thank you.

2. Boli: I do appreciate your concern. Yes I am a rep, but who wants to lose the previledge of flying RC jets. Certainly not me. That is why I usually spend my own money, build my own jets, and Test Fly them usually way before most have even receieved thiers. By the way did I mention that I do not get these jets for free. I PAY WITH MY HARD EARNED MONEY. I then take all the info I have learned at my expense and share them here on line for everyone to learn and produce a safer flying model. I have done this with the FEJ 1/7 F18F, the FEJ 1/6 F16, the FEJ 1/5 F86, and now with the large 1/6 F18F. The story has not changed for me. I am trying to sort out certain unforeseen things and make the kits better. Enough said, I thank you for your concern and maybe one day I may be able to help you if you decide to purchase one of the many FEJ jets coming out soon.

Again, we are here to enjoy our hobby. I prefer to show the things that need improving on these FEJ jets and not get blasted every time. If by helping provide information that my save someone a $10,000 jet and safty issues, then I guess that is what I agreed to do. It just makes it alot less fun.

By the way, I have always cheered when someone has posted a better way of doing something. Or showing that a part is wrong or needing upgrading or such. Boli what you may not understand is that collectively we make all these manufacturers better by reviewing their items and recommending improvements.

Keep it coming Folks.

Kevin

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Don't you have to get an experimental jet inspected and weighed before you fly it? I thought if the AUW was over 55 pounds that was the process to get it certified. Since I am not sure, maybe someone with a copy of the new regs can post them so we all know for sure.

Thanks,

Beave

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

Kevin, here is a copy of your original post #55. I see that you quickly edited it:

Your revised post now says it is "probably over 55lbs" and "may be heavier than your F-16".

This jet is clearly larger than your F-16 which you admitted in your original post is right at the weight limit. You must have suspected that this airplane would be over the limit and you even confirmed (in your original post) having that knowledge when you lifted it at the field. And what did you then do? Did you take the airplane home and get it inspected? Nope, you flew it anyway.

You willfully disregarded the AMA Safety Code (General Rule #4).

As for you calling Tony "on your own accord", you phoned him on Saturday AFTER he posted his concern in this thread (see post #34) that the jet is over the AMA limit.

It should also be pointed out that prior to flying this model you were warned of the issues regarding the rear bulkheads/linkages and told that these problems needed to be addressed. Instead of performing these modifications, you simply diregarded this information and went ahead and flew the jet anyway.

These are not the actions that one would would expect of an AMA member and turbine waiver holder, let alone a manufacturer's rep.

Jim


Edit 5/25/10 11:47am: Corrected post by removing "and the need for Loctite".

The original sentence read:

"It should also be pointed out that prior to flying this model you were warned of the issues regarding the rear bulkheads/linkages and need for Loctite and told that these problems needed to be addressed."

quist

My Feedback: (198)

Boli, you are correct. When Kevin called me yesterday I told him that and it can't be flown again until it is inspected.

But in all honesty, as an inspector, I would not have access to that rudder linkage that broke. We can't pull the turbine and tailpipe while inspecting the plane for a test flight.

I am very concerned about budget companies selling these huge projects. Just because they are a MFG we are to assume that they have done the engineering and test of the products they sell. If the project is scratch built the builder needs to prove there design and show the math.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Well...I'll be the first to admit this thread took a turn in a direction I was not expecting.

Beave [sm=omg_smile.gif]

rbxbear44

My Feedback: (86)

Guys, guys...come on! This looks like a "who can be the hero first to know the most." Give Kevin a break! He will get the plane inspected. I have gone through the inspection process and was quite impressed with the whole thing on one of my planes and I have another one coming that will need the inspection too. BTW, my inspector made me pull the pipe, turbine, servo hatches, exposing all linkages and I had to describe my build and intentions for each area in detail before the ispection flights took place.

Just talk to the guy (call Kevin personally)...geeezzz!

Why is it, that things that ought to be discussed head to head with a person through private e-mail or PM...becomes a dart throwing contest to bash someone and insult their love and passion for the hobby. Now its back to FEJ being a suck company throwing out cheap airplanes. Guys, when I get a plane from BVM, SM, Comp ARF, Airworld and FEJ...I see a lot of the same issues with all of them...there are things that need to be done to make the plane more airworthy. Kevin does this, I do this, and I can say every one of the members of my club do it too. FEJ gets picked on because they are actually going bigger which is what many of us want. Look at your planes...you have them too.

I opened up a kit one day that was actually twice the cost of a FEJ airframe and it had NO FORMERS! No instructions. No confirmed CG point from the company, etc, etc, etc. You had to create and install the gear plates...so where is the bash on them. Nope...I just shut up and pressed on, seeking advise and help from folks that know about static and dynamic loads...voala! Out popped a plane several months later that had only engine issues and no airframe issues...while tons of people were talking about weak airframes!!!

Oh and what about the "high end: company that put out a scale flighter jet and didn't even have retracts that worked for 4 years after the kit was being sold??? Some of you own a plane from that company. Kit was NOT cheap....very expensive but the same thing you are picking on about FEJ.

The reason we will get into trouble is not when a plane goes in for the "Big One"...it's because we would rather kill a thread and bleed a person out than call or contact them in a constructive manner. Hey, airline pilots...when you think someone is out of line with procedure and process as a pilot...do you send the accusation to the company newletter or do you work to get it corrected for the safety of the pilot and the company?

Kevin, thanks for your spirit of correction, man!

Rex

foster4u

My Feedback: (112)

Great job Kevin, and thank you for telling the good and the bad. Positive people will use it for the good it was intended, and the rest don't matter.

olnico

Kevin, please, please, please:

Try to do your best to make FEJ understand that gear stance shall not be overlooked.
There is a clear steering stability issue with the big FEJ F-18's (1/7th scale and 1/6th scale ). This is mostly caused by the gear stance and geometry ( including the main springs stiffness ).

It took me nearly one year and about 100 hours of design ( not to mention the 500 USD I spent on prototype parts ) and slow step by step adjustments to sort out the 1/7th scale F-18F on that respect.

It is absolutely essential to my point of view that FEJ sorts out the gear before selling too many planes. It is a 60 lbs piece of aircraft that takes off at 50 mph and lands at 60. The steering stability is essential to ensure the safety of the other modelers/persons around the runway.

Also I find the struts/wheels very thin and not scale. But that is less important ( it's only cosmetic ).

olnico

Also, Kevin:

Don't forget to thoroughly check your left elevator pivot shaft before the next flight. Given the levels of vibration the plane experienced, it is a critical point.

I also noticed that the plane snapped on the video at 0:55. Also it was quite "touchy" on final regarding the pitch axis. This indicates that you have too much throw and too much exponential on the elevator and a slightly too aft CG.
These plane fly perfectly safe and easy with 0% exponential and the proper throw.

You should end up with the following throw values:

Longitudinal vee: 1 degree

Pitch up elevator throw: 12 degrees

Pitch down elevator throw: 9 degrees

The ATV shall be around 75% at this value, allowing a dual rate to get 15 degree up and 12 degree down at 100%.

With these value you'll get the best precision on the pitch axis with a good damping at low speed.

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Kevin,

Go to Harbor Freight and buy 3 digital scales. About $35 each. Set the jet on the floor or your table and slide a scale under each wheel. Add the totals of each scale to get total weight. You can also then use those weights to calculate the actual CG.

David S

jet time

My Feedback: (75)

Wow! This is rediculous. The intention of this site if I'm not mistaken is to share information and help this hobby continue. These "witch hunts" are absolutely KILLING our hobby and getting all of us a bad reputation....INCLUDING THE "BIG NAMES". Back off guys and help...not hinder or kill the messengers. Kevin has done ALL anyone can do to get info out...good or bad and it is appreciated. I for one received a call from him about my own F-16 that probably saved the aircraft. There was a video I saw last week about a "big name" jet (electric powered) disintegrate in front of an entire crowd. It was well in excess of the 200 mph. By his own admission it was over powered....did any of you get all him for jeopardizing the public's well being at an AMA sanctioned event? NO....
As for weight, Kevin has never weighed the plane. He was just being honest about it being heavier than his F-16. He does not know the true weight but was trying to get things handled just the same. What a crime that is...
Let's appreciate what few people like Kevin do to help and the rest of you back off and go away. It's evident your doing more harm than good.
Thank you Kevin...please keep it up.

Please, any of you witch hunters out there, I do not want to get into a "pissing match" with you so please don't respond.

Lowell

ddennison

My Feedback: (15)

I think it is up to us to know the weight of our aircraft. Not knowing is not an excuse.What is the harm in having it inspected even if it is 54.99 lbs?

Respectfully,

Dave

rusty55125

My Feedback: (6)

This is ridiculous. People think that everything should be handed to you on a silver platter! Where is the builder in all of us? Do you remember the days that you had a box of sticks or fiberglass shell and had to figure out the rest? For the privilege these models you still had to pay a premium. And what happened when you found something you didn’t like? You fixed it!! Remember the days of Kit Bashing? Not now, you expect it to be done quickly and also cheap. I happen to love these new ARF’s, it give you such a head start in getting a plane in the air, but if you just take the kit out of the box and assembly it your asking for trouble and this applies to all the manufacturers BVM, SM, Comp ARM, Airworld ect. And this is exactly part of the problem, NO ARF is perfect, and they all require you to do some engineering to make them better!! This is all Kevin is doing; he is letting us know his experience, and hopefully giving the next builder a little insite into how to make this hobby a little better.

And this whole weight thing, the AMA is way behind the times on that one. As planes get larger, they get safer in my opinion. What would you rather have a 2lb electric going 120mph get away or a large aircraft. Both have the potential to cause damage or bodily injury, but you will at least see the larger one come and maybe have a chance to get out of the way.
Just my two cents!!

Scott

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Lowell,

Kevin knew for sure the -18 was over 55 pounds. What he did not know is by how much...he already admitted that. He also flew the jet after being told not to because of problems with the stab and rudder linkages. I believe even you told him prior to flying there were problems with the linkages...and he still flew it. Kevin flagrantly violated sections of the AMA safety code, the Turbine regs and the experimental regs...clear as day.

Lowell...believe me when I tell you this...we are being watched. We are trying to sell the FAA and the AMA that we can police our own. By defending such belligerent shirking of out regulations/requirements is only going to hurt our cause. It is going to make us look like a bunch of hill billy yahoos instead of the professional modelers we are trying to portray ourselves as. Lowell, we are adults...we are big boys playing with big boy toys. We are playing with extremely dangerous remotely piloted aircraft that can maim or kill innocent people without as much as a moments notice. It is up to us to do it right...the first time...and every time...period.

As to the Electra...it's an electric airplane so I believe the 200 MPH turbine restriction does not apply. If you know otherwise...please let me know so I will have the real facts. That crash...as well as the Storm Cat and the F-16 flying into the ground on a low pass were accidents...bad luck...poor timing...what ever. The F-18 maiden was deliberate.

I believe this unfortunate occurrence can be used constructively for us all, and hopefully we all can and will learn something from this. Also, maybe FEJ should start advertising the big jets as "Experimental Class Turbines" as a way of letting everyone who is considering getting one what they are getting into.


Lowell, remember...it's up to us...to protect ourselves from ourselves, because in the end...we can indeed be our own worst enemies.

Boli

morro

Even though I am in a land far far away I agree with you lowell, maybe a new thread can be started up called " perfect Pilots " there seems to be alot of them around.
I would like Kevin to keep giving us his opinions on the subsequent test flights the information would no doubt save those people that have bought one alot of heart ache.
Having been and flown in hornets I do agree that the stance on the landing gear is way off, Is this an oversite on the design or has this not really been looked into properly.
As for the weight issue, whats the problem here, it was a test flight under an inspector he has the last word dosent he!!!
I enjoy reading these threads but I think guys big note themselves on knowing the ins and outs of a hornet etc etc etc etc etc, fly one for real and come back with your answers.
c'mon guys pull your heads in.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quist

My Feedback: (198)

Boli, great post.

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Boli,

While I agree with your sentiment, do you honestly believe making and printing statements like the one highlighted above does anything to help our cause before the FAA & AMA? Or could it possibly be another example of us being "our own worst nightmare"?

A 4500 lb automobile moving at an entirely respectable 30 mph carries much more power and energy to "maim or kill innocent people without as much as a moments notice" than any of our aircraft. And yet any 16 year old kid with a driver's license can legally drive one on public streets at twice that speed or more! Our fields are usually out in the middle of nowhere!

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see the advantage in publicly flailing each other with such inflammatory language.

David S

rbxbear44

My Feedback: (86)

I think it's time to render ourselves to some realities here before we press any further with a hangmans rope or further accusations.

Questions:
1.) Is this really about safety or going after a person someone or a few just don't like?
2.) Is anyone compaigning privately against an individual in order to gain ground against that person to get rid of them once and for all?
3.) Is this not an issue on a club level rather than trying to go nationwide to gain momentum for an eagenda that is not in the best interest of the hobby
4.) Are we responsible for indictment or to challenge a specific issue regarding this whole matter?
5.) How many folks do we all know that have "knowingly" violated the 55 lbs. weight issue but because of who they are, have not said a word?
6.) Did you know that ANYONE can challenge a person on the weight issue and ask for verification at any time, even IF the plane has already been inspected?
7.) How many people do you personallu know that have waivers and shouldn't?
8.) What is the goal here? Is it to enhance safety? Is it to kick someone out? Is it to make an example?
9.) Those of you who call for "uniform reg adherence", if you know anyone that is in violation of this reg, waiver flying ability and safe control...are as guilty as they are?
10.) What was the manufacturers published weight of the ARF?

I have been on the Board for several years of a 285 member club and have seen much occur, especially in our litigious society and what we are seeing as far as the movements in UAV regs and FAA regulation and overseeing. in our club, there has not been many at all (thank God), but each occurance of an infraction against AMA reg's that we have had to deal with was called into the AMA and it was immediately placed back in our hands for the club to handle how it seems fit. If there is a challenge to a reg., the AMA suggsted to us that the member be asked to remedy the issue with full compliance and given a certain number of days to do so AND be required to NOT FLY until the compliance issue is resolved.

This is called "constructive control" and allows people to be dealt with and others to be educated along the way. If the behavior continues...then there is a deeper issue that requires greater and more definite and permanent action.

"Willfully..." is a very incriminating word to use for many of us since we are all part of a gang or friendship circle that makes us guilty too...we all know full well there are those whom we let regs slide for since they are who they are or for whatever reason...As willfull as Kevin may have been, so is ANYONE that has this knowledge of themselves or others too.

"The Big One", meaning a crash that will kill someone and bring an end to our fun and freedom to do this jet thing...what about an event where several folks were unable to complete a right turn so they had to pass over the approach pattern and fly out far enough to make a left to final...with 1500 people watching? Is that less dangerous than a maiden at a flying field with a Saftey Officer and two turbine waiver holders present to help out...and no crowd?

Some of you guys, I have heard the names through PM's and various circles, of those being asked to "side" with killing a man. I know some of you personally, while others I have no idea. But honestly guys (that I know and know me), is what's happening here the right thing to do?

I tell you this, each of you whom is asking for blood here BETTER be on the up and up with your own planes and all the friends you know too...if not, you need your waiver revoked too...if we are using the word "knowingly", or pre-medititaed, or whatever you want to use.

As I completed my recent Experimental Inspection, I was told that the servo in/oz requirement per flying surface was ultimately at the "manufacturers stated design requirement" if it was published. Otherwise, the manual calculation rule and dual servo rule applied. Ok, so maybe a 12 year old can tell if a plane is 75 lbs. vs. 55 lbs. But, what about a plane that is 57 lbs rather than 55?? Most of us use data from someone else or the manufacturer...or we just don't weigh the plane!!! Point here: A SM F-04 can weight 57 lbs. wet, a SM F-16 1/6 can weight 58 lbs. wet. A Comp ARF Tucan can weigh 57.5 lbs wet, a Fei Bao F-15 can weigh 61 lbs. wet., my old Comp ARf Lightning weight 54.85 lbs.wet!!! Those of you with these planes...have you weighed yours???

Look...lets give the man back to his club and we can still be very proactive as we desire. I sure hope those of us going to Jets Over KY and are tough in this thread...will be as tough on the flightline and in the pit area if they see someone that could be flying a plane over 55lbs!!! If not...you and I are GUILTY too!

I am a CD, Turbine Waiver holder and have an Experimental Permit to fly a turbine jet under 75 lbs...and doggon honored and humbled to be able to do this great stuff with all of you...even the grumpy folks that do nothing but complain As a CD...if I see anything in question or am asked to make a ruling at an event...I will do as I am required under the AMA guidelines and regs. As a AMA Card holder at a field on a Monday...I am that same man too! More importantly, I am that man to myself first!!!

Let's give this back to the club and let it be dealt with in a way that will encourage the man to do better AND make sure we are doing what we are supposed to be doing ourselves.

Rex

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

David,

Yes, it does a tremendous amount of good. I am sorry if you do not understand why. It is good because when the day arrives that the FAA does revise our operating regulations the AMA and the JPO will be able to say "See...we do police our own so you do not need to get involved unless we can not handle it".

David, your car analogy does not hold water either. What happens to a 16 year old if he breaks driving regulations? He gets fined...and if serious enough...he loses his privilege to drive. What happens if said 16 year old were to kill someone while driving his automobile? At least down here...they can be tried as an adult depending on the case and can go to jail.

David, it is well past the time we start acting like adults (granted, most of us already do...but it only takes one bad apple to ruin the whole bunch) and make sure those who think the rules are only a recommendation and not serious get the message...before it's too late for all of us.

Boli

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Boli,

You seem to have missed my point entirely. As I said, I understand the sentiment of the post. But, perhaps you can explain how, specifically, describing our hobby as "playing with extremely dangerous remotely piloted aircraft that can maim or kill innocent people without as much as a moments notice" on a public forum, does "a tremendous amount of good" and shows that "See...we do police our own so you do not need to get involved unless we can not handle it". If in fact, enforcement of an alleged broken regulation by the AMA comes of this, then that action will be proof that we police ourselves, not comments such as that.

As for my analogy, again you have missed the point. Specifically as it relates to your statement, a 4500 lb automobile does, in fact, carry much more power and energy to do damage than our jets. Yet I doubt they are many proponents of driving who would state that we are driving extremely dangerous vehicles that can main or kill innocent people without as much as a moments notice. Though the statement would be factually correct.

David S

AIRMAR72

LOWELL and REX I dont know you guys personaly but I agree KEVIN your proffessional always straight forward and honest with your reports and findings on FEJ models I also enjoy reading your threads it benifit those who consider buying one of FEJ. BIG reasonable price models keep the outstanding work going futhermore where was the AMA dective when the overprice overpowered environmental friendly hoover vacuum sounding BVM model bite the dust its not my 1st, 2nd or 3rd that I'VE seen a BVM model disintegrate inflight we need to support each other and keep it fair