Some of the best "Right Stuff" I have ever seen
07-28-2010, 03:49 PM
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: Ali
Firstly let me apologise again for this incident. I am deeply embarrassed by what happened, and am not looking for any credit for the save. Instinct is all the save can be attributed to, and ideally I would of course preferred that the plane never got close to that situation in the first place.
Now lets take some time to run through some things.
Firstly and most importantly, I was to breaking any rules. There was no minimum height limit at this event.
At the time, and throughout the weekend all of my flying ( Apart from one cross wind touch down) was on the far side of the centre line of the runway. if you look at the video you will see the entire wing is clear of the centre line.
We have no speed limits here in Europe but I can assure you that the model was well below 200 mph. The simple fact is that I made a mistake. I am very sorry for it, but it happened. I make mistakes in pretty much every flight. Some are obvious, some are not so obvious. This one was about the most obvious I have made to date, but given the amount of flying I do, I am pretty satisfied with my ratio of mistakes to flights.
I believe almost any flight we make as pilot is filled with an element of risk. Risk that something goes wrong with the model, risk that something goes wrong with the pilot. I try and manage the risks the best way I can. Believe me when I say that on every single flight I ever make I am always thinking in the back of my head '' What if'' What if the wing is to fail at this point? What if I stall here? What if I lose signal right there? Whee will the model end up? I kid you not, my thought process during a flight is filled with those types of thoughts.
This was not my first low pass of the event. I had made a few with the Epic on a previous flight, and run the thought through my head of what if I clip the grass. I never once thought it would veer around and face the crowd as it did. Again my mistake, for which I apologise for.
As I mentioned above. I think about risks while I am flying a hell of allot. I also think about risks in general a hell of allot. I see so many situations on my travels where I think to myself, damn! Thats so potentially dangerous, yet nothing is ever mentioned. I watch many cases at different events around the world where pilots who are maybe flying a plane well beyond their capabilities bumbling through a flight, semi in control always looking like they are seconds away from a crash.
I see pilots who have maybe not been flying for x amount of months suddenly decide that the weekend of a big event will be a good time to jump back on the sticks.
I witness pilots who have such a track record for crashing model aircraft ( of any type ) repeatedly welcomed back to public events where their poor flying skill of currency almost ensures a crash or a incident of some sort.
I see models ( Often huge great big models) That are so badly built, installed, maintained regularly flying at events.
The list could go on and on. What I am trying to say is that there is risk in almost every aspect of this hobby. The only way to ensure this does not happen is to ground every model.
Sure we can introduce a whole load more restrictions, but is that really going to eliminate the danger totally?
I know I am going to get jumped on for this incident, and I know there are a bunch of guys out there just desperate to take a chunk out of me. In some ways I guess I deserve it. But will it change the way I enjoy my hobby?? No!
I know in my head how much thought and attention I dedicate toward the safety of my flying, my models and what I do, and I sure as hell know that guys like me are not the ones that run the risk of hurting this hobby.
Regards Al
Firstly let me apologise again for this incident. I am deeply embarrassed by what happened, and am not looking for any credit for the save. Instinct is all the save can be attributed to, and ideally I would of course preferred that the plane never got close to that situation in the first place.
Now lets take some time to run through some things.
Firstly and most importantly, I was to breaking any rules. There was no minimum height limit at this event.
At the time, and throughout the weekend all of my flying ( Apart from one cross wind touch down) was on the far side of the centre line of the runway. if you look at the video you will see the entire wing is clear of the centre line.
We have no speed limits here in Europe but I can assure you that the model was well below 200 mph. The simple fact is that I made a mistake. I am very sorry for it, but it happened. I make mistakes in pretty much every flight. Some are obvious, some are not so obvious. This one was about the most obvious I have made to date, but given the amount of flying I do, I am pretty satisfied with my ratio of mistakes to flights.
I believe almost any flight we make as pilot is filled with an element of risk. Risk that something goes wrong with the model, risk that something goes wrong with the pilot. I try and manage the risks the best way I can. Believe me when I say that on every single flight I ever make I am always thinking in the back of my head '' What if'' What if the wing is to fail at this point? What if I stall here? What if I lose signal right there? Whee will the model end up? I kid you not, my thought process during a flight is filled with those types of thoughts.
This was not my first low pass of the event. I had made a few with the Epic on a previous flight, and run the thought through my head of what if I clip the grass. I never once thought it would veer around and face the crowd as it did. Again my mistake, for which I apologise for.
As I mentioned above. I think about risks while I am flying a hell of allot. I also think about risks in general a hell of allot. I see so many situations on my travels where I think to myself, damn! Thats so potentially dangerous, yet nothing is ever mentioned. I watch many cases at different events around the world where pilots who are maybe flying a plane well beyond their capabilities bumbling through a flight, semi in control always looking like they are seconds away from a crash.
I see pilots who have maybe not been flying for x amount of months suddenly decide that the weekend of a big event will be a good time to jump back on the sticks.
I witness pilots who have such a track record for crashing model aircraft ( of any type ) repeatedly welcomed back to public events where their poor flying skill of currency almost ensures a crash or a incident of some sort.
I see models ( Often huge great big models) That are so badly built, installed, maintained regularly flying at events.
The list could go on and on. What I am trying to say is that there is risk in almost every aspect of this hobby. The only way to ensure this does not happen is to ground every model.
Sure we can introduce a whole load more restrictions, but is that really going to eliminate the danger totally?
I know I am going to get jumped on for this incident, and I know there are a bunch of guys out there just desperate to take a chunk out of me. In some ways I guess I deserve it. But will it change the way I enjoy my hobby?? No!
I know in my head how much thought and attention I dedicate toward the safety of my flying, my models and what I do, and I sure as hell know that guys like me are not the ones that run the risk of hurting this hobby.
Regards Al
Very well said
Dennis
07-28-2010, 03:54 PM
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: Jascat100
Everyone involved & spectators attending should be aware, that jet turbine flying can possibly be dangerous & by attending accept that risk.
Everyone involved & spectators attending should be aware, that jet turbine flying can possibly be dangerous & by attending accept that risk.
07-28-2010, 03:59 PM
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: HarryC
I’m pretty sure that my brain would not have flipped into inverted flying mode to push it away as Ali did, I would probably have been trying to roll it upright and losing a lot of height in the process and probably going deeper into the forbidden zone. I might well have compounded it by throttling back which would be taking effect just as it came over towards the crowd, thus removing any chance of flying it away as Ali did. Since spectators generally enjoy seeing low fast passes and Ali who is an extremely capable pilot would be flying within the rules, I expect there is no blame on Ali for what happened, for doing what we all like to see and wish we could do ourselves, only praise for recovering it so well.
H.
I’m pretty sure that my brain would not have flipped into inverted flying mode to push it away as Ali did, I would probably have been trying to roll it upright and losing a lot of height in the process and probably going deeper into the forbidden zone. I might well have compounded it by throttling back which would be taking effect just as it came over towards the crowd, thus removing any chance of flying it away as Ali did. Since spectators generally enjoy seeing low fast passes and Ali who is an extremely capable pilot would be flying within the rules, I expect there is no blame on Ali for what happened, for doing what we all like to see and wish we could do ourselves, only praise for recovering it so well.
H.
07-28-2010, 04:04 PM
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: Ali
All I can do is put my hands up and say sorry, and yes learn from my mistake and on the next low pass keep it that little bit higher.
Regards Al
All I can do is put my hands up and say sorry, and yes learn from my mistake and on the next low pass keep it that little bit higher.
Regards Al
07-28-2010, 04:05 PM
#55
RE: Some of the best
Yes, it looked like a close call. But like others have said, it was not intentional and Ali know that he made a mistake.
What would you rather have? Jet events where we all fly around at the same speed and height with a number of approved maneuvers that are deemed safe for all?
I think most will agree that we go to events to see great flying and skills. We all go to the flight line to watch when the best pilots are flying because we all love a good show.
Ali is one of the best, and I'd let him fly low passes over my head all day long, whereas with a number of other pilots I'd rather hide under a car (well some of those pilots have managed to hit cars as well )
If there where no Ali, Shui, Volker, Lynch or similar expert pilots at the various events, or if they where told to fly racetrack patterns at a minimum of 50 feet, then I don't think the attendance would be very high. We want wow. That's what is the driving force at most spectator sports.
To call Ali unsafe is just dead wrong. Most pilots will never achieve half his skills. And, if you call him reckless, you have simply not been around him enough and seen his flying style.
Great save...
What would you rather have? Jet events where we all fly around at the same speed and height with a number of approved maneuvers that are deemed safe for all?
I think most will agree that we go to events to see great flying and skills. We all go to the flight line to watch when the best pilots are flying because we all love a good show.
Ali is one of the best, and I'd let him fly low passes over my head all day long, whereas with a number of other pilots I'd rather hide under a car (well some of those pilots have managed to hit cars as well )
If there where no Ali, Shui, Volker, Lynch or similar expert pilots at the various events, or if they where told to fly racetrack patterns at a minimum of 50 feet, then I don't think the attendance would be very high. We want wow. That's what is the driving force at most spectator sports.
To call Ali unsafe is just dead wrong. Most pilots will never achieve half his skills. And, if you call him reckless, you have simply not been around him enough and seen his flying style.
Great save...
07-28-2010, 04:06 PM
#56
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: Jascat100
Not directed at any poster in particular. This has, in my opinion blown out of all proportion. I am not surprised Ali has got a little upset. What else do you want him to say? He has already apologised on more than one post about what happened & still the digs keep coming. I am sure everyone has had such a moment in their flying career. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Not directed at any poster in particular. This has, in my opinion blown out of all proportion. I am not surprised Ali has got a little upset. What else do you want him to say? He has already apologised on more than one post about what happened & still the digs keep coming. I am sure everyone has had such a moment in their flying career. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Dennis
07-28-2010, 04:10 PM
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Guys,
I'm quite sure if that had been an uneventful, clean 'touch and go' everyone would be saying 'cool', 'awesome', 'great flying' and completely forgetting the potential that could, and unfortunately did, happen in this scenario.
If it had caught and flicked away from the crowd and the same reactions were used to save it everyone would be saying 'great save', 'awesome reactions' etc. I doubt people would be saying 'what if it went the other way' etc etc
He got unlucky and it went towards the crowd. Nobody was hurt and it was a good save and I dare say shook him up.
Should it have happened? No. Did he plan it to happen? No. Too low? Basically, yes.
Do we now introduce loads of new rules? No knife edge lower than 20ft? No rolls less than 10ft? Models of 'x' span to be flown no lower than y feet, models of 'x2' span to be flown no lower than z feet........c'mon, it was a very rare mistake. I've seen more dangerous things at club meets, other shows etc etc. Look back over videos posted on here of 200mph jet passes, low passes, inverted passes, near misses - all things that could have ended in similar situations had someone else got unlucky? I don't see people commented on the vids ''dude, you shouldn't have done that low knife edge pass just in case you got a bit too low and hit the deck and cartwheeled towards the pits'. Be realistic - flying is risky from the minute we start the turbine to the minute we stop it. Fortunately, good fortune is with us 99% of the time.
Al's prominence in the hobby makes him the perfect target for people to knock him and I know there will be the childish few who will be rubbing their hands with glee that it ''happened to Al''. I hope the people having a dig are grown up enough not to be doing it because of who it is and simply because they are so morally upstanding that they wish to convey their disgust at the mistake. If so, fine but I suggest we all have a little think about our flying and if we consider ourselves to be absolutely faultless at all times then feel free to slag Al off as you can do it with a clear conscience. In doing so, you also set yourself the target of never making a mistake from hereon in! If not, let it drop hey? T'was a mistake, he manned up and apologised publicly, has taken the flak. Move on.
Now, where's the rest of my red wine........
Guys,
I'm quite sure if that had been an uneventful, clean 'touch and go' everyone would be saying 'cool', 'awesome', 'great flying' and completely forgetting the potential that could, and unfortunately did, happen in this scenario.
If it had caught and flicked away from the crowd and the same reactions were used to save it everyone would be saying 'great save', 'awesome reactions' etc. I doubt people would be saying 'what if it went the other way' etc etc
He got unlucky and it went towards the crowd. Nobody was hurt and it was a good save and I dare say shook him up.
Should it have happened? No. Did he plan it to happen? No. Too low? Basically, yes.
Do we now introduce loads of new rules? No knife edge lower than 20ft? No rolls less than 10ft? Models of 'x' span to be flown no lower than y feet, models of 'x2' span to be flown no lower than z feet........c'mon, it was a very rare mistake. I've seen more dangerous things at club meets, other shows etc etc. Look back over videos posted on here of 200mph jet passes, low passes, inverted passes, near misses - all things that could have ended in similar situations had someone else got unlucky? I don't see people commented on the vids ''dude, you shouldn't have done that low knife edge pass just in case you got a bit too low and hit the deck and cartwheeled towards the pits'. Be realistic - flying is risky from the minute we start the turbine to the minute we stop it. Fortunately, good fortune is with us 99% of the time.
Al's prominence in the hobby makes him the perfect target for people to knock him and I know there will be the childish few who will be rubbing their hands with glee that it ''happened to Al''. I hope the people having a dig are grown up enough not to be doing it because of who it is and simply because they are so morally upstanding that they wish to convey their disgust at the mistake. If so, fine but I suggest we all have a little think about our flying and if we consider ourselves to be absolutely faultless at all times then feel free to slag Al off as you can do it with a clear conscience. In doing so, you also set yourself the target of never making a mistake from hereon in! If not, let it drop hey? T'was a mistake, he manned up and apologised publicly, has taken the flak. Move on.
Now, where's the rest of my red wine........
07-28-2010, 04:13 PM
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: gregairbus
In regards to all said here I agree Ali is a very good pilot.
But he is a professional show pilot / businessman this is not a hobbie to him but a business .
So as such he should have known better and allowed for that margin of error.
This is the difference between a professional and a hobbie pilot.
In regards to all said here I agree Ali is a very good pilot.
But he is a professional show pilot / businessman this is not a hobbie to him but a business .
So as such he should have known better and allowed for that margin of error.
This is the difference between a professional and a hobbie pilot.
07-28-2010, 04:50 PM
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RE: Some of the best
Is there any point in prolonging this thread? he made a mistake, admitted it and apologised! and no doubt has learned valuable lessons . . . . what more do you want him to do!? if it bothers people that much, then phone him if you cannot say it to his face rather than hiding behind a keyboard. Put this thread to bed!
07-28-2010, 05:05 PM
#63
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RE: Some of the best
Considering some of the comments on these threads, we should just disband The Blue Angels, The ThunderBirds, The Red Arrows, The Snowbirds and every other full scale demo team, including all the individual military as well as civilian demo pilots who fly shows all around the world. How about that Canadian F-18 pilot that just ejected while practicing for an air-rshow? Hell he ought to be banned from ever flying again! Flying that low and slow, just to show off the capabilities of his jet, how reckless! Cost the tax payers $40 mil with that one! Coulda killed somebody! ( For those not getting it this is called sarcasm.)
My point being, that all of these organizations/events feature the best pilots in the world doing what they do best, and even still, SH*T Happens! That's why we're glad it's the best pilots in the world doing it! When something goes wrong, they're the best equipped to handle it. I would certainly put Ali in that class of being one of the best pilots in the world in our hobby! So, when he's doing what he does best at an air-show near you, I advise you sit front and center MARVEL & ENJOY!
David S
My point being, that all of these organizations/events feature the best pilots in the world doing what they do best, and even still, SH*T Happens! That's why we're glad it's the best pilots in the world doing it! When something goes wrong, they're the best equipped to handle it. I would certainly put Ali in that class of being one of the best pilots in the world in our hobby! So, when he's doing what he does best at an air-show near you, I advise you sit front and center MARVEL & ENJOY!
David S
07-28-2010, 06:53 PM
#64
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RE: Some of the best
I'm not saying Ali is an unsafe pilot. Far from it. Ali is a VERY skilled pilot. What this points out however, is no matter how skilled, mistakes and unplanned events happen, and people need to take this into consideration when flying. If that low pass is flown at 2' altitude this thread never happens, and the pass is no less impressive.
I'm not interested in adding to regulations, rules, etc. The point to my original post is people really need to exercise better judgement when flying, especially in front of crowds. Someone lesser skilled than Ali trying to emulate this type of flying could have ended MUCH differently.
I'm not interested in adding to regulations, rules, etc. The point to my original post is people really need to exercise better judgement when flying, especially in front of crowds. Someone lesser skilled than Ali trying to emulate this type of flying could have ended MUCH differently.
07-28-2010, 07:02 PM
#65
RE: Some of the best
Ive learned somehting from this.
I never realized that a model could do this after touching the ground.
Im guessing the grass was a contributing factor.
I bet a paved runway would have produced a different outcome.
Nice save Ali!
I liked that routine!
Scott
I never realized that a model could do this after touching the ground.
Im guessing the grass was a contributing factor.
I bet a paved runway would have produced a different outcome.
Nice save Ali!
I liked that routine!
Scott
07-28-2010, 07:12 PM
#66
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
I'm not saying Ali is an unsafe pilot. Far from it. Ali is a VERY skilled pilot. What this points out however, is no matter how skilled, mistakes and unplanned events happen, and people need to take this into consideration when flying. If that low pass is flown at 2' altitude this thread never happens, and the pass is no less impressive.
I'm not interested in adding to regulations, rules, etc. The point to my original post is people really need to exercise better judgement when flying, especially in front of crowds.
I'm not saying Ali is an unsafe pilot. Far from it. Ali is a VERY skilled pilot. What this points out however, is no matter how skilled, mistakes and unplanned events happen, and people need to take this into consideration when flying. If that low pass is flown at 2' altitude this thread never happens, and the pass is no less impressive.
I'm not interested in adding to regulations, rules, etc. The point to my original post is people really need to exercise better judgement when flying, especially in front of crowds.
To try to explain what I mean - here's an example that I watched play out not that long ago : one pilot accidentally clipped the grass during his low pass and came back with some grass stains on his aircraft. One group of people were tut-tutting this as being unsafe showboating, and a fair number of people would agree with their point – it was unnecessary to fly so low that a tiny misjudgement could cause contact like that. However, when one of that group then went out to fly, and his high-speed low pass accidentally clipped the post of a banner at show-center due to flying too low in that area - nary a word was said by them about that (at least not publicly) ; instead, I saw only congratulations for the 'great save'.
Either the aircraft that clipped the grass, or the aircraft that clipped the banners could easily have flipped behind the flight-line if not for a combination of luck and fantastic reflexes by both of the very skillful pilots involved. That 3' or 4' altitude pass was effectively no safer than the zero altitude pass, given where it was flown - it's not just your overall altitude that matters, but a number of factors such as your separation from any & all obstacles. So why do some people insist on hypocritically singling one pilot to criticize for his flying style, while not saying squat about it when one of their own does something similar ? Simple politics, IMO.
As a result of such hypocrisy, the important message about everyone needing to take more care to ensure a safe minimum separation distance between their aircraft and the ground or other such obstacles, was almost completely lost, as many of the people present simply polarised into the "I hate 'Fred' " camp vs the "I like Fred and consequently I hate 'Joe' " camp, and the discussion degenerated into 'who is the biggest d*head – Fred or Joe', rather than ' what can we all learn from this'
The point I'm trying to make, is that valid messages about us ALL trying to make our hobby safer, kinda get lost / diluted if the message takes second place to personality conflicts etc., as is unfortunately quite common within our portion of this great hobby.
Gordon
07-28-2010, 07:37 PM
#68
RE: Some of the best
As I mentioned earlier, it was a great save, and I have huge respect for Ali for coming out and admitting a mistake.
What amazes me, is would this thread carry so many "congratulations on the save", "wow, what great piloting" etc, if this exact same thing had been done by Joe Blow? Not likely, from my experience on the forums, if it had been some regular guy, there would be a whole lot more flaming and negative comments going on.
Not that any of that really matters, but in keeping things in perspective, this just shows that even the best pilots can screw up. What this says to me is that all of us as jet pilots need to be more vigilant in our flying. Even if there is no rule in place that says low passes must be a minimum of XXX feet high, we should probably exercise common sense all the time and realize that while doing a pass at only inches off the ground shows piloting skill, really, in the interest of safety, as well as the interest of the spectators and what they can physically see, doing passes that low really doesn't make sense when nobody beyond the front row can see it.
Just my 2 cents.
What amazes me, is would this thread carry so many "congratulations on the save", "wow, what great piloting" etc, if this exact same thing had been done by Joe Blow? Not likely, from my experience on the forums, if it had been some regular guy, there would be a whole lot more flaming and negative comments going on.
Not that any of that really matters, but in keeping things in perspective, this just shows that even the best pilots can screw up. What this says to me is that all of us as jet pilots need to be more vigilant in our flying. Even if there is no rule in place that says low passes must be a minimum of XXX feet high, we should probably exercise common sense all the time and realize that while doing a pass at only inches off the ground shows piloting skill, really, in the interest of safety, as well as the interest of the spectators and what they can physically see, doing passes that low really doesn't make sense when nobody beyond the front row can see it.
Just my 2 cents.
07-28-2010, 07:57 PM
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RE: Some of the best
Ali,
After careful examination of the video, I think you were using too much rudder on your rolling maneuvers throughout the routine. But that's just my $0.02
Live and learn.
I seem to have those same thoughts throughout my flights as well, what if _____ happens, or this goes, or ______. Its a constant worry at least for me.
After careful examination of the video, I think you were using too much rudder on your rolling maneuvers throughout the routine. But that's just my $0.02
Live and learn.
I seem to have those same thoughts throughout my flights as well, what if _____ happens, or this goes, or ______. Its a constant worry at least for me.
07-28-2010, 08:23 PM
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RE: Some of the best
Which of these are "Too Low"?
All performed by expert pilots with no grumbling, complaining or second guessing, and certainly without a dedicated thread on RCU to bashabout. If Ali's Epic had not touched terra firma, or after touching, had simply skipped back into the air, or skidded straight down the runway, would we even be having this discussion?
David S
I posted these photos on the CA Jets V thread & others, earlier this year and I don't remember seeing a single complaint written from anyone complaining about the safety or altitude of these maneuvers flown. If I were to look back thru my photo files I'm sure I could find quite a few more from FL Jets, KY Jets, Fresno Jets etc.
All performed by expert pilots with no grumbling, complaining or second guessing, and certainly without a dedicated thread on RCU to bashabout. If Ali's Epic had not touched terra firma, or after touching, had simply skipped back into the air, or skidded straight down the runway, would we even be having this discussion?
David S
I posted these photos on the CA Jets V thread & others, earlier this year and I don't remember seeing a single complaint written from anyone complaining about the safety or altitude of these maneuvers flown. If I were to look back thru my photo files I'm sure I could find quite a few more from FL Jets, KY Jets, Fresno Jets etc.
07-28-2010, 08:27 PM
#73
RE: Some of the best
1 inch or two feet What difference does it make if the crowd is on the flight line. Anything could have malfunctioned thrusting the jet toward the crowd and no amount of pilot skills would prevent it. The idea is to minimize the risk by keeping crowds back off the flight line.
I guarantee you, if someone is killed or seriously injured in one of these events, the lawyers will hire private investigative firms to go over every aspect of the accident, and if anything is found to be even remotely negligent, the pilot, the organizer,the club and property owners will be held responsible. It won't matter what we think.
Get those spectators away from the flight line!
I guarantee you, if someone is killed or seriously injured in one of these events, the lawyers will hire private investigative firms to go over every aspect of the accident, and if anything is found to be even remotely negligent, the pilot, the organizer,the club and property owners will be held responsible. It won't matter what we think.
Get those spectators away from the flight line!
07-28-2010, 08:37 PM
#74
RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: jetpilot
Ive learned somehting from this.
I never realized that a model could do this after touching the ground.
Scott
Ive learned somehting from this.
I never realized that a model could do this after touching the ground.
Scott
I have never been one to try to "tie the record" for low altitude passes but this episode has given me new respect and incentive to make sure I never do. It was a great save and more importantly, a good lesson for all of us.
Craig
07-28-2010, 08:48 PM
#75
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RE: Some of the best
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
1
Get those spectators away from the flight line!
1
Get those spectators away from the flight line!
David S