Dragon wing failure.
08-20-2010, 10:43 AM
#251
RE: Dragon wing failure.
I'd rather buy BVM jets at their higher cost than to buy a Skymaster jet. With Skymaster I'd put another $4000 in equipment into it, have it crash, then buy another SM jet and do it all over again .. including the crash.
By buying BVM, in the end, I'd be ahead. Both in construction time and money.
By buying BVM, in the end, I'd be ahead. Both in construction time and money.
08-20-2010, 10:47 AM
#253
RE: Dragon wing failure.
ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc
LOL - have you noticed that sometimes it's difficult to determine whether a poster is really a 12 year old who is trying to pose as an adult, or an 'adult' who behaves like a petulant 12 year old ?
ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix
You're doing a fine job of discrediting yourself actually. I have no clue who you are, you've hidden behind the internet very well, but reading your posts, between your ego and your interpretation of what is safe or correct, the only one here really discrediting you is YOU.
You're doing a fine job of discrediting yourself actually. I have no clue who you are, you've hidden behind the internet very well, but reading your posts, between your ego and your interpretation of what is safe or correct, the only one here really discrediting you is YOU.
Well Gordon,
To be honest I'm picturing more of a 14 year old pimple faced kid who's sitting in his parents basement with a wizard hat on wishing his friends were over to play dungeons and dragons some more. Sadly, his friends have just discovered internet porn and Jergen's lotion but his parents have parental controls on his computer so he can't look at that same stuff. Instead, he's had to start looking at other stuff, he's old enough to find out information, but not experienced or smart enough to put it together into a good story.
On another note, you should come up to Jets over Whidbey next weekend! There's a few other Cali boys coming up, it's only about a 9 hour trip for you! I'll have the Raptor out there again
Jeremy
08-20-2010, 10:51 AM
#254
RE: Dragon wing failure.
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
Hahah, you are starting to get hilarious actually. I have no problem posting my AMA number and Waiver number at all. Here it is big boy:
AMA #877368
Waiver #FW14290
Making that comment shows even more that you don't know what you are talking about. There is no info attached to this that could harm my idenity at all. We give this information at every jet rally we go to. Whats the big deal?
Lets see yours troll. Oh you don't have it. Work on your T-38... lol you mean your foamy T-38. Again go away. Your useless here.
Hahah, you are starting to get hilarious actually. I have no problem posting my AMA number and Waiver number at all. Here it is big boy:
AMA #877368
Waiver #FW14290
Making that comment shows even more that you don't know what you are talking about. There is no info attached to this that could harm my idenity at all. We give this information at every jet rally we go to. Whats the big deal?
Lets see yours troll. Oh you don't have it. Work on your T-38... lol you mean your foamy T-38. Again go away. Your useless here.
Tisk, tisk .... tisk.
BTW ... my AMA number is only 5 digits. With an AMA number like yours, you must be a newbie ... about 4 years or so?
08-20-2010, 10:59 AM
#255
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RE: Dragon wing failure.
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
Same to you Chris. You have no business falsely attacking me. It just makes you look petty too.
{Awww, did I just give you the equivalent of a body slam too?}
Enough of this BS ... I have to get back to work on my T-38 Talon jet ... and it isn't a Skymaster (or shoud we rename the company Skydisaster!
ORIGINAL: Chris-G
I don`t think so. You are really digging a hole here Mr 400
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
Well, aren't you Mr. Funnyman!
Once again Andy ... nice try. But since you don't know me, you have no business falsely attacking me in a poor attempt to discredit me. It just makes you look bad.
Whats to report - I could care less about what you do with your models. What is relevant to my inquiry is your lack of experience with turbines. Your not a waivered jet pilot, you don't own any turbines, you really don't have much to offer here except your conjecture which is mostly been proven to be completely wrong. Go back to what you know - PROPS? EDF? and leave these forums to the ones who actually know a little about what they are talking about.
Give us your AMA number and first name and if your on the list you won't here another word from me about it. - if not GO AWAY TROLL>!
Give us your AMA number and first name and if your on the list you won't here another word from me about it. - if not GO AWAY TROLL>!
Once again Andy ... nice try. But since you don't know me, you have no business falsely attacking me in a poor attempt to discredit me. It just makes you look bad.
{Awww, did I just give you the equivalent of a body slam too?}
Enough of this BS ... I have to get back to work on my T-38 Talon jet ... and it isn't a Skymaster (or shoud we rename the company Skydisaster!
I think of all the people that have seen this tread now, this problem with the wingmount and canopy on the Dragon will not be a issue anymore. It has been said before... if you can put together a jet you can also do this mods with ease. Every time I have build a chinese jet I have done some mods, not with the C-arf, it just work. The Grum 262 I`m building now I have to figure most of the things out by myself.
Like Icepilot is mention here we have many SM and other chinese jets here in Norway that just work with no problems at all. Actually it is up to the builder to ensure that the airplane is ok to, not only the manufacturer. It is shurely a big problem when things are locked in and you can`t see it, but we have to use our heads some times and think "is this good enough"
I think the SM jets are the most value for money, it`s a long way to BVM and the other high end airplanes so I think it is totally wrong to do a balance between these aircrafts. You have to balance between FEJ and FB if this should be fair.
For me this case is closed in this matter.
Have a good wekend guys
08-20-2010, 11:07 AM
#256
RE: Dragon wing failure.
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
Michel, In your last post you made conflicting statements. You write, ''The easiest way to make this go away is just not to post anything and in a few days the problem will have been forgoten.'' Then you ask people to send emails. Well, people sent Anton emails and he did nothing. Besides, once an airplane crashes, it's too late to provide help.
Face it, Skymasters' quality stinks. Upgrades are needed in many areas. SM jets built as depicted should have never been sold.
An aluminum tab attached to balsa wood with a shoddy glue job that a young child would do! Disgraceful!!
This is not the kind of work that should go into a jet that would cost $5500.00 after all is said and done.
Another SM rep admitting that customers need to expect a lesser quality built aircraft from SM due to the lower price, and that the customer needs to reinforce the jet in several unknown areas!!
China has lower wages, so that should translate to a lower price for the consumer while the quality remains high. But a SM rep admitted this is not the case with SM.
I could give you much better and reliable options for a proper fix, but I'll give it individually to people at my field who own these things. So far, I have seen others offer their fix, but nothing coming from SM or the reps.
Michel, In your last post you made conflicting statements. You write, ''The easiest way to make this go away is just not to post anything and in a few days the problem will have been forgoten.'' Then you ask people to send emails. Well, people sent Anton emails and he did nothing. Besides, once an airplane crashes, it's too late to provide help.
Face it, Skymasters' quality stinks. Upgrades are needed in many areas. SM jets built as depicted should have never been sold.
An aluminum tab attached to balsa wood with a shoddy glue job that a young child would do! Disgraceful!!
This is not the kind of work that should go into a jet that would cost $5500.00 after all is said and done.
Another SM rep admitting that customers need to expect a lesser quality built aircraft from SM due to the lower price, and that the customer needs to reinforce the jet in several unknown areas!!
China has lower wages, so that should translate to a lower price for the consumer while the quality remains high. But a SM rep admitted this is not the case with SM.
I could give you much better and reliable options for a proper fix, but I'll give it individually to people at my field who own these things. So far, I have seen others offer their fix, but nothing coming from SM or the reps.
COMPLETE SENTENCE:
The easiest way to make this go away is just not to post anything and in a few days the problem will have been forgoten like many other we have all seen posted here from diferent brands, but instead of that we are posting and offering help, but this seems not to be enough for you.
END OF SENTENCE
It seems you "FORGOT" to put the part in bold...[X(]
On the other hand if you have so many ideas and fixes why instead of atacking people and companies, you post the ideas to help others? After all this is supposed to be the purpose of a forum like this or not?
Michel
08-20-2010, 11:10 AM
#257
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RE: Dragon wing failure.
Airplane400
The dragon sells for just under $2,000.00 all said and done as purchased from SM, the additional component cost is not to be factored in. I have owned a total of 5 SM jets and none have had any issue or failure in the past 5 years due to any manufacturing issues and I have a ViperJet 2M on order. I know in advance that i will be adding my own special touches to the airframe to bring it up to my own standards as a model builder.
I perform the same building techniques to every kit i build even BVM kits and on that note BVM kits are not excluded from having issues that have cost their owners to lose an airframe..... We are modelers and i don't trust any manufacturer as i have had issues with them all from midwest, GP, Sig, Yellow, byron, etc, etc....
Alan
Face it, Skymasters' quality stinks. Upgrades are needed in many areas. SM jets built as depicted should have never been sold.
An aluminum tab attached to balsa wood with a shoddy glue job that a young child would do! Disgraceful!!
This is not the kind of work that should go into a jet that would cost $5500.00 after all is said and done.
An aluminum tab attached to balsa wood with a shoddy glue job that a young child would do! Disgraceful!!
This is not the kind of work that should go into a jet that would cost $5500.00 after all is said and done.
I perform the same building techniques to every kit i build even BVM kits and on that note BVM kits are not excluded from having issues that have cost their owners to lose an airframe..... We are modelers and i don't trust any manufacturer as i have had issues with them all from midwest, GP, Sig, Yellow, byron, etc, etc....
Alan
08-20-2010, 11:33 AM
#258
RE: Dragon wing failure.
Michel,
I usually stay away from the forums like this because they become a 'free-for-all' that severely degrades into unjust personal attacks, and goes off the topic ... case in point.
If SM builds planes badly, and can't / won't assist their customers, it's not my job to help the company succeed unless I get paid (and paid well) by SM.
I simply help my friends at my field WHEN they ask for assistance. Believe me, some of them have bad building / flying techniques. I also jump in and offer my assistance when something is not safe. Just because something looks good, doesn't mean it can endure 4 g's.
An object traveling throught the air, in level flight, at 200 mph endures more than twice the amount of forces if it were traveling at 100 mph. This ratio also gets considerably higher as speed is increased. Builders, fliers and manufacturers need to understand this concept.
I'm outta here .... feel free to start any rumor or innuendo about me that you want. Have fun!!
I usually stay away from the forums like this because they become a 'free-for-all' that severely degrades into unjust personal attacks, and goes off the topic ... case in point.
If SM builds planes badly, and can't / won't assist their customers, it's not my job to help the company succeed unless I get paid (and paid well) by SM.
I simply help my friends at my field WHEN they ask for assistance. Believe me, some of them have bad building / flying techniques. I also jump in and offer my assistance when something is not safe. Just because something looks good, doesn't mean it can endure 4 g's.
An object traveling throught the air, in level flight, at 200 mph endures more than twice the amount of forces if it were traveling at 100 mph. This ratio also gets considerably higher as speed is increased. Builders, fliers and manufacturers need to understand this concept.
I'm outta here .... feel free to start any rumor or innuendo about me that you want. Have fun!!
08-20-2010, 12:04 PM
#259
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RE: Dragon wing failure.
Mr 400,
I've been reading this whole thread. I believe myself to be an intelligent, level headed, fair and articulate member of the human race but from everything I have read, irrespective of what others have said toward you, you are the one who I am beginning to think is a troll [8D]
Why not 'body slam' everyone, including me, (to use your phrase) and gain the moral high ground by simply posting your AMA number? Equally, post some video of all your self professed "perfect landings" - I'm yet to see anyone always achieve perfection. Oh, and you also seem to be the one everyone wants to come to events and who people in your club turn to for advice so you must be one hell of a guy. We can only dream of reaching such a dizzy omniscient status in the jet world
Infact, the only people I know like this are, unfortunately, experts in their own world in their bedroom infront of a PC
I'm siding with Jeremy and Co, but I'd say maybe 15yrs old?
I am not condoning the glue joints SM are applying to the tabs but I do think everyone is overdoing the certain disaster these will cause. There is very little load on them. I am ashamed to confess that a year or so ago, whilst being asked questions all the time I was rigging my ViperJet, I didn't put the wing bolts in (yes, I know!). I then flew a 7 min flight with point rolls, slow rolls, knife edge etc and landed - wings intact. Proof, if you needed it, that those tabs are not being 'yanked' in flight.......
Happy flying
Mark
I've been reading this whole thread. I believe myself to be an intelligent, level headed, fair and articulate member of the human race but from everything I have read, irrespective of what others have said toward you, you are the one who I am beginning to think is a troll [8D]
Why not 'body slam' everyone, including me, (to use your phrase) and gain the moral high ground by simply posting your AMA number? Equally, post some video of all your self professed "perfect landings" - I'm yet to see anyone always achieve perfection. Oh, and you also seem to be the one everyone wants to come to events and who people in your club turn to for advice so you must be one hell of a guy. We can only dream of reaching such a dizzy omniscient status in the jet world
Infact, the only people I know like this are, unfortunately, experts in their own world in their bedroom infront of a PC I'm siding with Jeremy and Co, but I'd say maybe 15yrs old?
I am not condoning the glue joints SM are applying to the tabs but I do think everyone is overdoing the certain disaster these will cause. There is very little load on them. I am ashamed to confess that a year or so ago, whilst being asked questions all the time I was rigging my ViperJet, I didn't put the wing bolts in (yes, I know!). I then flew a 7 min flight with point rolls, slow rolls, knife edge etc and landed - wings intact. Proof, if you needed it, that those tabs are not being 'yanked' in flight.......
Happy flying
Mark
08-20-2010, 12:54 PM
#262
RE: Dragon wing failure.
Hi, all
First of all,I feel sorry about crash of these two Dragons. We now already got contact with Albert and Luis and already got understanding from them. We offer Dragons with new upgrade to them at very special price.
Four years ago, we felt the market called for a sport jet with fair price and good performance. Then Dragon was introduced to market. For four years, we already released many Dragons. Since it performs very well and is good value for budget, we got appreciation from a lot of customers.
According to suggestions from different channels,we decide to make upgrade as below to new batch of Dragons before delivery:
1.Main wings. A spare pin is used to secure the other side of aluminum tab;Bolt the screw from the hole of wheel well to the inside of fuselage.
2.Canopy is reinforced with carbon cloth. Two pins are added to either side of canopy to secure canopy to fuselage.
3.Stabs. There is two screws separately to be mounted to either end of carbon tube.
Meanwhile, we’ll post above upgrade points on our webpage so that all Dragon owners know them.
Thank you for your concern to our products.
Best Regards
Anton
First of all,I feel sorry about crash of these two Dragons. We now already got contact with Albert and Luis and already got understanding from them. We offer Dragons with new upgrade to them at very special price.
Four years ago, we felt the market called for a sport jet with fair price and good performance. Then Dragon was introduced to market. For four years, we already released many Dragons. Since it performs very well and is good value for budget, we got appreciation from a lot of customers.
According to suggestions from different channels,we decide to make upgrade as below to new batch of Dragons before delivery:
1.Main wings. A spare pin is used to secure the other side of aluminum tab;Bolt the screw from the hole of wheel well to the inside of fuselage.
2.Canopy is reinforced with carbon cloth. Two pins are added to either side of canopy to secure canopy to fuselage.
3.Stabs. There is two screws separately to be mounted to either end of carbon tube.
Meanwhile, we’ll post above upgrade points on our webpage so that all Dragon owners know them.
Thank you for your concern to our products.
Best Regards
Anton
08-20-2010, 12:55 PM
#263
RE: Dragon wing failure.
1.Main wings. A spare pin is used to secure the other side of aluminum tab;Bolt the screw from the hole of wheel well to the inside of fuselage.
08-20-2010, 01:10 PM
#267
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RE: Dragon wing failure.
I hate to say "I told you so..." (no, I don't, I LOVE to say "I told you so!!!")
Let's assume the troll is gone, Anton came through like he has always done and like I knew he would - let's bury the rest of this thread together with the troll.
Tor
BTW: I ALWAYS take off, fly and land perfectly, I look good, smell great and everybody wants to be me...
Let's assume the troll is gone, Anton came through like he has always done and like I knew he would - let's bury the rest of this thread together with the troll.
Tor
BTW: I ALWAYS take off, fly and land perfectly, I look good, smell great and everybody wants to be me...
08-20-2010, 01:23 PM
#268
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RE: Dragon wing failure.
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Mr 400,
I've been reading this whole thread. I believe myself to be an intelligent, level headed, fair and articulate member of the human race but from everything I have read, irrespective of what others have said toward you, you are the one who I am beginning to think is a troll [8D]
Why not 'body slam' everyone, including me, (to use your phrase) and gain the moral high ground by simply posting your AMA number? Equally, post some video of all your self professed ''perfect landings'' - I'm yet to see anyone always achieve perfection. Oh, and you also seem to be the one everyone wants to come to events and who people in your club turn to for advice so you must be one hell of a guy. We can only dream of reaching such a dizzy omniscient status in the jet world Infact, the only people I know like this are, unfortunately, experts in their own world in their bedroom infront of a PC
I'm siding with Jeremy and Co, but I'd say maybe 15yrs old?
I am not condoning the glue joints SM are applying to the tabs but I do think everyone is overdoing the certain disaster these will cause. There is very little load on them. I am ashamed to confess that a year or so ago, whilst being asked questions all the time I was rigging my ViperJet, I didn't put the wing bolts in (yes, I know!). I then flew a 7 min flight with point rolls, slow rolls, knife edge etc and landed - wings intact. Proof, if you needed it, that those tabs are not being 'yanked' in flight.......
Happy flying
Mark
Mr 400,
I've been reading this whole thread. I believe myself to be an intelligent, level headed, fair and articulate member of the human race but from everything I have read, irrespective of what others have said toward you, you are the one who I am beginning to think is a troll [8D]
Why not 'body slam' everyone, including me, (to use your phrase) and gain the moral high ground by simply posting your AMA number? Equally, post some video of all your self professed ''perfect landings'' - I'm yet to see anyone always achieve perfection. Oh, and you also seem to be the one everyone wants to come to events and who people in your club turn to for advice so you must be one hell of a guy. We can only dream of reaching such a dizzy omniscient status in the jet world
Infact, the only people I know like this are, unfortunately, experts in their own world in their bedroom infront of a PC I'm siding with Jeremy and Co, but I'd say maybe 15yrs old?
I am not condoning the glue joints SM are applying to the tabs but I do think everyone is overdoing the certain disaster these will cause. There is very little load on them. I am ashamed to confess that a year or so ago, whilst being asked questions all the time I was rigging my ViperJet, I didn't put the wing bolts in (yes, I know!). I then flew a 7 min flight with point rolls, slow rolls, knife edge etc and landed - wings intact. Proof, if you needed it, that those tabs are not being 'yanked' in flight.......
Happy flying
Mark
I would like to see all those perfect landings too. In my 26 years in the hobby, with about 13 years of Ducted fan and 10 years of turbine, and seen or flown with the best, I have seen where EVERYONE can have a bad landing
08-20-2010, 02:20 PM
#269
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RE: Dragon wing failure.
ORIGINAL: pilot tw
Hi, all
First of all,I feel sorry about crash of these two Dragons. We now already got contact with Albert and Luis and already got understanding from them. We offer Dragons with new upgrade to them at very special price.
Four years ago, we felt the market called for a sport jet with fair price and good performance. Then Dragon was introduced to market. For four years, we already released many Dragons. Since it performs very well and is good value for budget, we got appreciation from a lot of customers.
According to suggestions from different channels,we decide to make upgrade as below to new batch of Dragons before delivery:
1.Main wings. A spare pin is used to secure the other side of aluminum tab;Bolt the screw from the hole of wheel well to the inside of fuselage.
2.Canopy is reinforced with carbon cloth. Two pins are added to either side of canopy to secure canopy to fuselage.
3.Stabs. There is two screws separately to be mounted to either end of carbon tube.
Meanwhile, we’ll post above upgrade points on our webpage so that all Dragon owners know them.
Thank you for your concern to our products.
Best Regards
Anton
Hi, all
First of all,I feel sorry about crash of these two Dragons. We now already got contact with Albert and Luis and already got understanding from them. We offer Dragons with new upgrade to them at very special price.
Four years ago, we felt the market called for a sport jet with fair price and good performance. Then Dragon was introduced to market. For four years, we already released many Dragons. Since it performs very well and is good value for budget, we got appreciation from a lot of customers.
According to suggestions from different channels,we decide to make upgrade as below to new batch of Dragons before delivery:
1.Main wings. A spare pin is used to secure the other side of aluminum tab;Bolt the screw from the hole of wheel well to the inside of fuselage.
2.Canopy is reinforced with carbon cloth. Two pins are added to either side of canopy to secure canopy to fuselage.
3.Stabs. There is two screws separately to be mounted to either end of carbon tube.
Meanwhile, we’ll post above upgrade points on our webpage so that all Dragon owners know them.
Thank you for your concern to our products.
Best Regards
Anton
Anton, As one that has been critical of your design and absence of any fix on this thread, I want to applaud you for addressing these issues. BRAVO! I known I would willingly spend a little more to have these things corrected in the kit rather than spend hours doing them myself, or worse, have a catastrophic loss. I never expect to get even an ARF kit that we don't need to make some mods to but a couple of these things needed to be addressed in the design. Your response, I hope, will be reflected in more confidence in SM, more sales for you and more FUN for all of us. If I unfairly pre-judged whether we would get some changes, I apologize. I would be the first to admit, I was not confident we would.
Having said that, is there any plans to make some changes to the other kits that have same weakness in the wing attachment that have accounted for other losses such as the large Viper?
George
08-20-2010, 02:49 PM
#270
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RE: Dragon wing failure.
Just as I thought....Give Anton a little time to gather his thoughts, find adequate and acceptable resolutions and he would respond appropriately.
Anton, may I suggest you review the spars being used on these (and perhaps other model) aircraft to assure that the root of the issue is not spar failures. Perhaps some load tests to failure would be a good measure to make sure they are up to the task per model weight with excessive G numbers and a bit of margin.
Regards,
Todd
Anton, may I suggest you review the spars being used on these (and perhaps other model) aircraft to assure that the root of the issue is not spar failures. Perhaps some load tests to failure would be a good measure to make sure they are up to the task per model weight with excessive G numbers and a bit of margin.
Regards,
Todd
08-20-2010, 04:43 PM
#271
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Dragon wing failure.
I wouldn't use plain carbon cloth in that area of the canopy frame because the cross threads are useless in that direction...you can easily strengthen the structure with either UD (Unidirectional ) glass rovings or UD carbon rovings along the entire frame perimeter corner to give it its needed rigidness ,the rest of the structures stability and stiffness comes when the canopy is glued in .
08-20-2010, 05:26 PM
#272
RE: Dragon wing failure.
I’m with lavi rider on this too. The mod to the canopy that Anton proposes is inadequate. CF cloth is not the answer. The wing mod is weak too. It won’t add any strength to the wing … it just looks nice. Obviously, Anton, and some of the people here have no idea of stress and strain of materials. (Just a little something I learned in college while I took engineering courses.)
08-20-2010, 10:38 PM
#273
RE: Dragon wing failure.
Hi, All
We already changed the aluminum tube this year. The new tube has no star shape inside. For Dragon owners who have aluminum tube with star shape inside, if you want to change to new tube,
please send us e-mail.
We will offer new tube at our cost,you only need to pay shipping.
For other Skymaster jets with similar wing attachment as Dragon, we’ll make same upgrade as Dragon.
Thanks for Todd's suggested...
Best Regards
Anton
We already changed the aluminum tube this year. The new tube has no star shape inside. For Dragon owners who have aluminum tube with star shape inside, if you want to change to new tube,
please send us e-mail.
We will offer new tube at our cost,you only need to pay shipping.
For other Skymaster jets with similar wing attachment as Dragon, we’ll make same upgrade as Dragon.
Thanks for Todd's suggested...
Best Regards
Anton
08-20-2010, 10:46 PM
#274
RE: Dragon wing failure.
Bravo Anton, I'll be sending you that email. It was a great pleasure talking to you over the phone; you are a true gentleman.
Thank you Todd and others that contributed for the similar cause, and we shall enjoy the dragon with confidence.
All the best,
Barry
Thank you Todd and others that contributed for the similar cause, and we shall enjoy the dragon with confidence.
All the best,
Barry