RE: Reno crash
 

Jim, Raced this plane last year and at times was turning laps over 500mph. After he got the lead he would slow down and just pace the field. He had a bad time in time trials last year and had to race his way into the Gold race. The Ghost was flight tested in race condition.

RE: Reno crash
 

3rd class, but lots of it!

RE: Reno crash
 

My thoughts are with those lost in this plane crash, and their loved ones.

I hope, and pray,, that those of you reading this realize that YOUR rc aircraft can do the same amount of damage in any given situation.

A minute of silence is due for those gone.

And fellow RC pilots lets fly safe!

Jeff

</p>

RE: Reno crash
 

there's already people in here saying what caused the crash .now is not when we should speculate on such things.and to add to it some think air racing should be banned.the tradegy was that 9 people died and scores got injured.I am sure the pilot was horrified out of his mind as that plane hurtled into the pit.imgaine how much worse if it had slammed into the bleachers.no one went to reno that day expecting a crash ,right now I feel for all the victums and what the losses mean to familes and relatives.air racing is dangerous just as formula one or hydroplane boat racing.these pilots knowingly take such risks that can end their lives in an instant and given options every pilot would sacrifice his life to prevent killing spectators in the process.

over the months ahead experts will subsequently learn what caused the trim tab to separate from the fusealage and a reivew of spectator seating etc will be performed.until that time our prayers are with all those who suffered..

RE: Reno crash
 

Another thing worth noting is that, at least prior to impact, the tail wheel is extended.

RE: Reno crash
 

Unfortunately, today I head there was another airshow crash here in USA, somewhere on the east coast. I think the NTSB needs to revamp the regulations before anyone else dies or gets injured.

RE: Reno crash
 

here we go again.. Lets just gives us more rules to live by in this day and age. :eek:

RE: Reno crash
 

Shawn,

I'd love to come out but at the moment I'm loading up for Super Jets South and can't do both back to back.

Joe says I have to come out next year so I guess it will be then!

Have fun!

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

That number may climb to 11 victims, there is a retired couple missing from the show. The missing couple was in the box seat impact area.

Link with vid..
http://www.kirotv.com/news/29221836/...ihJYY.facebook

** I took this link from the Warbird section here on RCU.**


Boli, Good luck and have fun at SJS! [8D]

RE: Reno crash
 

My bet is that in order to keep this event going after this tragedy, they will be forced to move the spectators further away from the action. I'm not saying I would be for or against this. Just that it will probably happen.

RE: Reno crash
 

They can't move the crowed, they would have to move the pylons further out. I have been there several times. I make a spinner that they use on several of the Seafury's. I was going this year and had to cancel a few days ago because of work. Guess I was lucky something came up! Thought are with everyone affected!

RE: Reno crash
 

The NTSB doesn't make regulations, only recommends them to the FAA...

Bob

RE: Reno crash
 

Yes. That and people need to realize that going to an airshow (and especially an air race) entails assuming a certain amount of risk. You are very close to thousands of pounds of metal flying at 400 miles per hour. There is no way to make that inherently safe.

RE: Reno crash
 

I witnessed three other incidents similar to this one. They all had three things in common the failures happened on the home stretch or just after turn 1. they only happened after completing at least one turn on the course and after the last pylon, turning onto show center. Intresting this is descibed as the hardest corner. finally they all lost the trim tab. Voodoo, one of the yaks, and dont forget Miss ashleyII. The determination was that the trim tab was the likely cause of the flutter resulting in the horizontal tail departure and resulting crash for Miss Ashley. One solution might be To change the shape of the course to reduce the g load in the corner (S). Just a thought
Tighe

RE: Reno crash
 

I also agree that if you buy the ticket you assume the risk. Provide no direct maliance. why is everyone trying to save each other from themselves.

RE: Reno crash
 

I love the Reno races. This is very sad. In the past, they have had difficulty locating underwriters to insure the races. After the number of lawsuits likely to come from this incident, we might be out of luck for future underwriters. I hope not. The crowd is generally true aviation enthusiasts. But many were seriously injured and could face substantial lifetime expenses.

Lets hope everyone recovers quickly that survived. And lets hope the folks that lost family will heal and find peace. We are, after all, part of the same aviation family. Our thoughts and prayers go out to all of those affected by the crash.

RE: Reno crash
 

Pilofighter i agree and while my statement stems from the frustration of so much regulation over everything in our live by no mean do i mean disgrase to the hurt or deceased.
I started flying when i was 11, the Air races really developed my passion for avaiton. I am teriffied that this will be the lose of it for generations to come. Unfortunatly accdidents happen. we dont get to chose. and true accident ar unpreventable

RE: Reno crash
 

This accident is obviously attracting a lot of interest on the internet and heres one from Prune which makes real sense :

"First I'd like to say how badly I feel that spectators were injured and killed in this accident. As someone who barely escaped a similar fate at Flugtag '88 and saw my share of disturbing sights, I have nothing but sympathy for all those affected.

That said, I have an interest in analyzing and understanding the events that take place in aviation and this event is no exception. As a pilot, aviation mechanic and long time race fan who has attended 15 of the last 20 race years, I have more than a passing interest in this accident. To the "don't speculate, wait for the report" gang: Sorry, no dice. Well reasoned discussion of a technical nature is a different thing than wild uninformed speculation. Trouble is, only technically savvy people with good reasoning skills seem to recognize the difference!

My own analysis of the information available to me as of this date comes with the proviso that it is only a working theory and subject to modification by new facts or correction of any flawed theories or assumptions. We're not gonna hear much substantial analysis from the NTSB for quite some time. Consequently, I feel that some reasonable speculation among the more informed participants having a factual and/or supportable theoretical basis for their ideas is more constructive than might otherwise be proffered if these ideas were not offered for the purposes of discussion. So here goes my take on what's apparent so far:

Photos indicate that the trim tab on the left elevator became partially detached then departed the aircraft at some point in the sequence of events. It is logical to presume that the detachment of the trim tab would cause a significant change in elevator hinge moments and therefore the elevator control forces.

At very high airspeed, the trim would typically be adjusted pretty far in the nose down (tab T/E up) direction to counter the airplane's natural nose up tendency with increased airspeed. Removal of the trim tab induced force about the elevator hinge point would result in a significant change in the control force required to hold the elevator in the desired position. I would expect that an immediate and strong elevator trailing edge up (stick back) force would result from the loss of the trim tab under this condition of high speed flight.

When added to any force already applied, the gees could reasonably be expected to build faster than the human can react to apply forward stick before the onset of gee induced loss of consciousness. (As happened to Hannah in '98) What video of the sequence I've seen appears to indicate a rapid upward change in flight path somewhere west of the pits approaching the home pylon. At 500 mph, that rate of angular change certainly appears to me to be indicative of some pretty high "G" forces. Why Hannah's plane continued skyward and Leeward's rolled into a dive is open to conjecture, but that's the difference in outcomes it seems.

The video and still images seen so far appear to support the theory that the pilot was rendered unconscious during the pullup and exerted no control after that. Had the airplane not been rolling as well as pitching, there might have been more time for a recovery such as Bob Hannah's, but we'll never know.

I'll be interested to see if the NTSB opens a public docket so we can access some of the investigative work product prior to release of the final report as has been the case in many major accidents. The possibility that they may have some recorded flight parameters is intriguing will hopefully include good time reference, attitude and/or accelerometer data."



Fatfreddy17 also makes a very good point on RCU, OUR jets have the potential to cause enormous damage or injury and whilst MOST operators give safety a very high priority some just don't seem to get it that safety is an essential and integral part of ALL aviation activity, model jets included. Do we pay enough attention to safety here on RCU ? Well, there's not been a single post on the Safety Matters thread for over 15 months, not one !

Perhaps Reno could, should also be a "headsup" for us, too !

Regards,

David Gladwin.

RE: Reno crash
 

CNN.com today provided some updated information regarding the Reno crash.

NTSB board member Mark Rosekind, PHD (some of you might be familiar with his work in pilot fatigue research) announced that a telemetry system was installed aboard the accident aircraft and that NTSB personnel have been provided with the received data stored by the ground crew. Information regarding which specific parameters were recorded was not detailed in the briefing. A video cam was also installed. Multiple data memory cards were recovered from the wreckage and sent to the NTSB lab for analysis. The origin of these memory cards is unknown. Some may be from devices carried by spectators.

Rosekind was also quoted as saying that no mayday call was received from Leeward.

Parts of the tail section have been recovered including the detached trim tab.

It was also noted that a tremendous amount of video has been provided for investigators for analyze.

Analysis to follow.

RE: Reno crash
 

Wow cant imagine looking up to see a plane coming straight at you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bIU_Y06A9U&feature=player_embedded#!

RE: Reno crash
 

What is all the blue foam looking stuff in most of the pictures? Is it a foam used in the wing tanks?

RE: Reno crash
 

The blue foam is from the fuel tanks. A very good friend of mine designed and built those tanks. They were designed to be fire and explosion proof..... It appears his design worked perfectly.

RE: Reno crash
 

Some new video from MSNBC this morning. Thank god the momentum of the crash was directed towards the tarmac..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...80654#44580654

RE: Reno crash
 

Yikes, that video provides a chilling account of the accident.

RE: Reno crash
 

Wow,

That's awful. Talk about living life as though every day is your last....

RE: Reno crash
 

Man, what a brutal video. Kudos to the pilot for trying to get the plane to go in out of harms way. He saved a lot of people in the grandstands.

Godspeed.

RE: Reno crash
 

We have to wait for the investigation to determine the whole scenario, but it appears unlikely that the pilot was conscious prior to impact...

[link=http://http://law.hukuki.net/reno-p-51-pilot-a-hero.htm] http://law.hukuki.net/reno-p-51-pilot-a-hero.htm[/link]

Bob

ps. I hope the article I linked to is not from some ambulance chaser who is going to try and extract their fee from this accident - I just cited it because it clearly relates the facts of a previous occurrence with Voodoo that may be germane and the opinions of some up to this point based on what little evidence is out there thus far.

RE: Reno crash
 

My view Bob, is that the article makes perfect sense. I don't normally speculate on accident causes but this one is different as there is so much clear photographic evidence.

If you look at the last video (stkrudder) it can be seen that the trim tab is bent backwards before it seperates and the left elevator is almost fully up presumably as a result of the load applied by the tab, Even during high G manoeuvres at high speeds elevator movements are quite small, so this amount of elevator deflection at this sort of speed is going to apply some very serious G, probably beyond the G tolerance of almost any pilots, regardless of age, but at 74 G tolerance IS reduced compared with younger guys. Its a fact of life as I found flying the Hawk in my 50s, even with a G suit I was struggling at a sustained 6g whereas in my 20s, no problem even without a suit. G tolerance is even less when high G is suddenly applied (less time to tense up stomach muscles) rather than smoothly and if the tab suddenly failed this was a likely scenario. G loc ? High speed, failed tab, large elevator deflection, pilot slumped down in cockpit, full power still applied until impact, absolutely against the normal instinct of any pilot, 99.9% certain. Sluggo and Pat Barnes may care to comment. So with all the photographic evidence, all the wreckage including the failed tab and no fire the NTSB job should be fairly straightforward.

Its a remarkable tribute to the basic Mustang design that the wings did not fold, but that said, the wing bending moments of this Mustang were much reduced due to the reduced span.

Some of may have heard that in the UK the Red Arrows lost Red 4 (John Egging) at Bournemouth. That aircraft just flew into the ground after the break into the circuit after the display, with no obvious engine damage, (smoke stayed on uninterrupted) no R/T call and speed well below that which could have allowed a bird to penetrate the windscreen, this is going to be a very tough investigation and unusually the RAF (which now has a new military air accident authority created after the loss of a Nimrod over Afghanistan due to an inflight fuel leak and fire) has still not released a preliminary report.

So again I extend my sincerest sympathy to all who were killed or injured and to their friends and families and also to those who witnessed this accident at close quarters, it is a very traumatic experience.

Lets hope, however, that these exceptionally unfortunate accidents do NOT result in curtailment of such flying events, enjoyed by so many, and which DO have such a very good safety record.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

RE: Reno crash
 

There have been several of the trim tab failure on P-51s and that last one the plane went vertical too and he blacked out, but fortunately he was able to recover in time to regain control.

My freind is just to the right of the frame in that MSNBC video when the plane impacts. He was so horrified he will not return to Reno again. He's been going since he was a kid and just is too disturbed by what he saw. He described the scene as somethign from "Saving Private Ryan". I had another commitement or woudl have been at the show. It's the first one I have missed in a long time.



Jeff

RE: Reno crash
 

Good points, if the photos are accurate and true then he very well could have been unconscious and it was shear luck that it headed back towards the tarmac.

RE: Reno crash
 

Just by looking at the pictures, I do not believe he had any controlling factor in where the plane was headed. It appears as if it was just luck that it did not kill or injure more people.[:o]

RE: Reno crash
 

And no doubt saved lives and prevented many burn injuries.

I don't pretend to know much about air crashes, but it seems amazing that there was no fire. You would expect the highly volatile fuel to be vaporised on impact, and there must have been initiation sources considering the energy involved.

I wonder if the technology can be scaled down to model size??

Roger

RE: Reno crash
 

Does anyone know if they are running alcohal, because that could have been a reason for no fire.

RE: Reno crash
 

No, they aren't.

RE: Reno crash
 

Unfortunately I fear the facts in this case may provide some difficult reading, just depends on how the RAF word it.

Rob.

RE: Reno crash
 

So how does the blue stuff prevent a fire????

RE: Reno crash
 

Hi David

I agree. From all the video footage It seems unlikely that the pilot was conscious after the initial pitch up. The Red 4 crash, IMO, was also most likely down to GLOC. The only difference is that the Mustang crash appears to have been caused by a mechanical failure leading to a rapid pitch up leading to the pilot suffering GLOC. For my friend Jon (we were on the same instructors course, and spent 3 years working together at RAF Valley) in Red 4, there appears to have been no mechanical failure, but evidence points toward the fact that he was not conscious from shortly after the start of the break to impact. The crash was most probably caused by GLOC but could also be any other physiological cause - heart attack, massive stroke or something along those lines. Interestingly, there was no fire in the Red Arrows crash either.

I think the report is being delayed as it will be very difficult to determine exactly what the physiological cause was, and in the modern litigious age, the report will have to very carefully worded to prevent military aviation from becoming impossible to do. When I started flying, all I wanted to do was fly a jet at thousands of miles an hour at nought foot six, and drop bombs and fire bullets at the bad guys! I considered that I might die, but that always happened to others - I was invincible like every other young man at the start of a military flying career. The modern blame/claim culture has changed all that. People seem to have forgotten that any form aviation where you push the limits (such as military flying, air racing, display flying) is dangerous and that sometimes accidents just happen. I don't include commercial aviation in this, as this is safer than crossing the street, but even there, accidents very occasionally happen too. Without people pushing the limits, striving for improvements, we would still be living in caves.

That said, it is very sad times world wide for aviation. There have been too many accidents and fatalities just recently.

RE: Reno crash
 

The GG also carry's a water solution for the "boil off" system to cool the engine. the plane at the start of the race can have 150 gallons of fuel and 150 gallons of the cooling mixture. they both burn off at the same rate when flying. The cooling mixture is water and ADF fluid. When it went in the coolant and fuel both vaporized. the vaporized mixture from both the fuel was only around 33 percent of that and the other was non flammable 66 percent. this could also have helped prevent a fire.

RE: Reno crash
 

So how does the blue stuff prevent a fire???? What is "ADF fluid"? Is ADF fluid the blue stuff? Is the blue stuff there to attempt to prevent a fire? Or does it have nothing to do with the fact that there was no combustion?

RE: Reno crash
 

BTW...The Galloping Ghost was certainly not a "tired, vintage old warplane"

Built from the ground up.


http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/NewG...9-1/index.html

http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/NewG...9-2/index.html