Reno crash
 

Guys, bad crash just happened at the Reno Air Races. Many people killed, many more injured. News is breaking now.... Let's all give up a prayer for all the people hurt by this horrible incident.

RE: Reno crash
 

It was Jimmy Leeward from Ocala. I have been to his house for dinner years ago.

It's real bad... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNeP...layer_embedded

God Bless the dead and injured...

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

just heard from some guys out there, apparently went into the pits or stands.

RE: Reno crash
 

BBC reporting 12 dead, 75 injured, many critical.
Not a good year fro Mustangs after the Duxford accident.

RE: Reno crash
 

My family and i were leaving for the races tomorrow! This is a bad day for sure.

RE: Reno crash
 

Very sad.

RE: Reno crash
 

"NOT A GOOD YEAR FOR MUSTANGS" WOW HOW ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO LOST THERE LIVES

RE: Reno crash
 

Of course, I should have made that clear. I have absolutely the very greatest sympathy for the casualties and their friends and families. Should have made that clear, my sincere apologies if it came over wrongly, it was not intentional. Again, I apologise.

David.

RE: Reno crash
 

My local news just reported 4 dead. Still a terrible tragedy.

RE: Reno crash
 

This is horrible. At least there was no fire that would have made the injuries much worse. I have to ask, what an 80 year old is doing flying in unlimited air race conditions. S

RE: Reno crash
 

FYI, Jimmy Leeward was 74. RIP.

S

RE: Reno crash
 

Sorry-the news report I heard said he was 80,I knew he was older and didnt fact check my RCU post. Thanks for the "FYI" Spence. Scotty

RE: Reno crash
 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44556695/ns/us_news-life/

RE: Reno crash
 

I just found some comments from another pilot who said he thought that part of the horizontal stab had broken off and another photographer has a shot of the plane missing the trim tab

there is a pic of the tab missing the ghost was inverted when the shot was taken

RE: Reno crash
 

Yes it was terrible. I watched him in turn 6 do an abrupt flip out of the circuit and pitch up. Looks like he was fighting it. Then it rolled and went straight in to the box seat area. Crashed with such impact the plane was obliterated with a hugh crater in the middle of the box seat. The impact sounded like a bomb going off. Pieces were thrown 150 feet in the air.

RE: Reno crash
 

I saw it go in. Looked like a mechanical failure of a control surface. One of the prop blades slid to a stop 10 feet in front of us. The pilot had no chance to do anything. It hit at about an 80 degree angle and was probably doing 350mph. Nothing remotely resembling an aircraft remains. God's grace on those killed and the families that they left behind.

RE: Reno crash
 

Here are a couple of pictures of the crash that are on Fox News' website. Pretty graphic pictures. Wow, this is really such a shame. This is quite a tragedy and my heart goes out to the families of those that died, and my hopes that those injured will heal quickly.


Ken<br type="_moz" />

RE: Reno crash
 

Here is the latest

http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines...130007898.html

Turbulence

RE: Reno crash
 

Lose the tab, lose control.......

RE: Reno crash
 

I have the same feelings as well.

I surprised and relieved (for the many more unharmed spectators in the impact area) there was no fire. As devestating as the loss is, it could have been that much more worse with fire.

Prayers to the families.

** Here's a shot of Jimmy's efforts to keep his crippled plane away from the crowd.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e60_W4tuTNI[/youtube]

RE: Reno crash
 

Very sad indeed! My heart felt prayers go out to all involved in this tragedy.

RE: Reno crash
 

Sad loss to all involved, our thoughts are with you.

I wonder if flutter on the elevatorwas a factor in this incident

Alistair.

RE: Reno crash
 

Seeing the corkscrew effect i suspect the complete stab on that side suffered some type of failure...very tragic for all involved, a very sad day for aviation.
Vin...

RE: Reno crash
 

Very sad day indeed. My thoughts are with those who lost loved ones.

RE: Reno crash
 

This is from one of the guys I work with:

"When he came around pylon 8, he pulled up slightly and went to about a 140 heading. it look like he would exit south east over the pit area and clear the area! But I saw it was worse than a small malfunction. He was having control issues at between 200-300 hundred feet, roll, pitch and yaw fluctuations. Then a almost snap roll-split s type left move followed by direct decent into the tarmac! The debris field spread along about a 065 degree heading. I was about 40 feet away on a 130 vector from the crater. "

Someone else noted that just prior to impact that the pilot is missing from the cockpit canopy picture. Some are speculating that during the initial pitch up at the moment of trim tab failure he may have GLOCed. Also, possibly the seat collapsed at that moment as well since he is missing from the picture.

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

There is another pic from a top down angle on Yahoo that shows him slumped very very far forward. It was a horrible impact, From what I have heard from friends there there is nothing left of the aircraft bigger than a foot or two in size. A question Why is the tailwheel out? S

RE: Reno crash
 

Yea sorry Scotty, didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all jerk or anything. Just wanted to make sure everyone had the correct info.

Very, very sad day indeed.

I do have a question regarding the trim tab failure. Would a small tab like that really cause the plane to become uncontrollable? It is very small and one wouldn't think that that would render the plane uncontrollable. I could see if the tab were stuck in either the full up or down position but even then this could be counter-acted with elevator in the opposite direction, right?


S

RE: Reno crash
 

I don't think a broken trim tab would have caused that. Based on what Boli posted, I think there was something catastrophic going in in the cockpit.

RE: Reno crash
 

I don't know much about the P51 but it might not just be a 'trim' tab. If it is a geared tab then its purpose is to take the aerodynamic load off the pilot. Without this (and hydraulic assistance) then I guess it is quite possible the controls would become so heavy as to be unflyable, especially at the speeds it would have been going at during the race.

Although it obviously did end up in the spectator area, it looks from the video that it didn't actually go into the spectator stands (although it is hard to tell). It's a pretty horrific thing to happen but it seems to me that it may have had the potential to be even worse than it was.

RE: Reno crash
 

Depends on what was left of the trim tab, and how much deflection it had. A big trim tab deflection can cause huge stick forces which only have to be greater than the strength of the pilot for the aircraft to be uncontrollable.

RE: Reno crash
 

You can see part of the left tab has broken free, but the other tab is still attached...and deflected down, which creates "up elevator" control pressures. You can also see that the picture gives the impression that the elevators have "split" because they appear to not be deflecting evenly.

Couple that with a violent tail flutter that was seen by many witnesses...there is a good chance the elevators separated from the stick.

There are no hydraulic primary flight controls on the P-51...it's all mechanical.

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

Here is a sight that has some videos you probably won't see on Youtube. Warning some are graphic:

http://www.rgj.com/videonetwork/1164156712001?odyssey=mod|mostpopvideos

Here is another I found on a CNN web affiliate:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/17/nevada.plane.crash/ This one is unbelievable..close.

Here is an interesting interview where people are saying he pulled up and spiraled before nose down:
http://www.digtriad.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=1164156757001&odyssey=mod|newsw ell|text|FRONTPAGE|featured

Another good report from FOX from a pilot who witnessed:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/us-42...-25435421.html

RE: Reno crash
 

This was truly a horrific event. I just went to Jimmy's Facebook page and simply said "Rest in peace Jimmy".

Such a sad day.

S

RE: Reno crash
 

There will be some guessing for a while now until there is an official statement of what has happened.
The loose trim tab can cause lots of trouble in a slower airplane, with a plane like this flying over 400 Mph close to the ground, there is not much even the best pilot can do.
Prayers to the people and their families. This is the worst day in the life of hundreds of people. And a very bad day for the general avation, which already struggles.
Growing up in Germany, I never had the chance to see a real airshow - after the Rammstein accident we had so many regulations, no shows happened anymore.
Now let us hope that there are ways to make these events safer without taking them away.

RE: Reno crash
 

Hello all, I was there sitting in a front row box number 15A. I believe the Ghost came down into box 24-25. This race had 4 aircraft capable of over 500 mph, we were really jazzed for this heat, most of us pulling for the Ghost to beat Strega. Strega and Voodoo passed the start finish line and I was watching Voodoo when someone said "whats this" and I looked up in time to see the ship inverted at the top and screaming down, full throttle right at us. I was saying to myself miss us miss us miss us when she started a very slow roll, thats when I hit the ground and a second later felt the impact. Stuck my head up to see which way to run to avoid the fire and saw there was none, debris was still falling from the sky. My friend who owns the box Is a Fire Cheif with EMT training ran down along with 2 other EMT's in our box. He came back a few minutes later, and I cannot say here what he saw. We have 3 major hospitals in this area so a lot of the spectators were medical personnel who jumped into action right away. There was a Vietnam era HUEY chopper in the static display area that was pulled out, fueled and put into action as a MediVac with volunteers riding along to show the crew where the hospitals were. Being a scale modeler I had wanted to modify a TopFlite P-51 into the Ghost and was at the pit when it was pulled out for this race, I was taking the usual modeler pics as it went buy, markings etc. I know I have a close up of the tail section, if anything was amiss it might show. I have not downloaded the pics yet. Very scary and unbelievable occurance, you cannot believe it happened. Your chest pounds and hurts, your knees tremble, and you are stunned. I was diagnosed with a little shock by my neighbor who is a retired USAF flight surgeon, but am OK today. I hope this does not put an end to these races, it is a spectacular thunderous racing sport that brings you to your feet as these vintage modified birds scream by at 100 feet. Accidents happen in all racing events, you know and accept that when you purchase your ticket. Prayers for the dead and injured.

RE: Reno crash
 

:( my thoughts go to those that died

RE: Reno crash
 

I can verify that. I have had 2 separate situations where a trim tab malfunction (both in smaller & slower aircraft) which could have been catastrophic.

As to the pilot not being visible...it is very possible that after doing all he could to pull up elevator, he was simply burying his head, I have been in 2 airplane crashes and in one of them, after aiming between the trees, that's exactly what I did.

RE: Reno crash
 

A broken trim tab can absoutely do that. I had one break on a T-43 maintenance check once. We were at 210kts straight and level and it jerked the yoke out of the pilots hands. Yoke was full back to forward several tlimes before we got it under control. Just imagine what it would do at 350kts and 6 Gs

RE: Reno crash
 

I don't think there's much doubt the tab caused the crash.

It would be silly, IMO, to conclude otherwise given that the tab is known to have failed and the a/c was seen to pitch hard then crash.

Surely those events are related and not coincidental.

RE: Reno crash
 

I found this on another forum. Bob Button team manager for Voodoo discussing the separation of the elevator trim tab in 1998.

"Last year was very emotional," Button says, surveying the unlimited pits on Sunday morning, "For two reasons... One, obviously, we got ourselves into a real potential problem. In the previous two years, we had been building up the airplane, so there was no preparation time available to us. I also made some mental mistakes and allowed things to happen that shouldn't have happened." Indeed, pilot Bob Hannah had a wild ride when the elevator trim tab broke off the aircraft and pitched the racer up at approximately 10 G's. Hannah took a G-induced nap but recovered consciousness high over the race course. The flaps had been mis-rigged, and led to undesirable pitch trim forces. At the speeds they were flying at Reno, the tab was sticking way out in the breeze and it had fluttered off. "The second thing was; I had two years of coming up here and not taking home any money. We lost the ADI pump when Sherman Smoot was flying it in '97, and the trim tab in '98. It was some poor decision making I made. Those kinds of things are not going to happen any more," Button says. He is serious. "We're going to have a well prepared, tested airplane up here."