RE: Reno crash
 

Interesting. It had an RCATS telemetry system on it [link=http://www.rcatsystems.com/exp.php]http://www.rcatsystems.com/exp.php[/link]

I'll bet those guys are sick that their labor of love caused so much pain. I feel for them as well...

Bob

RE: Reno crash
 

Woketman,

ADF is an anti detonation fluid. In the Ghost they used a methanol/distilled water mixture. Distilled water because it has no minerals that can cause corrosion. The blue foam pieces are probably remnants of the fuel cells. In this case, they worked perfectly.
Read this article. It was an incredible machine.

http://www.sportaviationonline.org/s...on/201105#pg40

RE: Reno crash
 

Got chills viewing this image....
Here is the trim tab being installed on the Galloping Ghost.... Look at the writing on the guys shirt doing the work...

RE: Reno crash
 

I thought I heard someone remark that maybe his seat broke. Is that possible? That MSNBC video...looks to me like he was completing his turn and the plane just rolls over on its back and dives into the ground. From that angle, I can't see the violent pitch up everyone talks about.

RE: Reno crash
 

THanks for those links RJBob...very impressive photo-documentation.

Rick

RE: Reno crash
 

Wow, I was seconds away from posting that exact same picture.. Here are some others:

RE: Reno crash
 

I have not seen any videos that actually show the moment of pitch up, but several of them show the resulting climb to probably 2 or 3 (maybe more?) times the pattern altitude and then the resulting roll over into the near vertical dive - all the while appearing to be at full power...

Bob

RE: Reno crash
 

question, If the pilot passed out and he was strapped in his seat... where did he go? The seat mount must have broken and the seat must have slid foward making the pilot pull the the yoke forward. This might explain why the tailwheel was out? I bet he tried to pull on the handle that releases the tail wheel to try to pull himself up.

RE: Reno crash
 

Wow, Todd...

Goose bumps here, too....

RE: Reno crash
 

I saw the departure from normal flight. It looked like a high speed stall resulting in a quick snap to the right with a pitch up. Either the trim tab caused the extra elevator that resulted in the stall/snap or possible that his seat dislodged causing a quick unexpected pull on the stick. So did the pull break the trim or did the broken trim cause the pull?

RE: Reno crash
 

Thanks... rjbob, for the link to the "Ghost" pictures. I was astounded at how many systems there are, crammed into the modern Reno Warbird racer. Seems like every inch has something in it. I knew they clipped wings and such. But I thought the fuse was pretty much stripped and a Hot Rod motor installed....and that was it. That cockpit looks tiny. And the photo that shows the pilot...seemingly absent...really lends credence to the theory that he was unconscious. He must have had a lot of slack in the shoulder belts. Or do they use some kind of retract system on the harness?

RE: Reno crash
 

:eek::eek::eek:

Guys - The trim tab fluttered, probably shook so bad it dropped the tailwheel and broke the elevator joiner tube. Departure of the trim tab from the airframe caused a rapid pitch up to which the pilot GLOC'd. The roll was probably from the suspected split elevator, and it pitched over the top and impacted the ground at full throttle.

All this talk about him trying to save the crowd, slumping over on the stick, pilot error, etc....is all nonsense.

RE: Reno crash
 

................that is exactly the opinion of John Farley writing on Prune. John is a very experienced and indeed very distinguished British test pilot who did a great deal of testing on the Hunter, Harrier and Hawk. He also posted a video of a Comanche on a test flight with a fluttering stab. its quite frightening. As John (who has lost several test pilot friends due to flutter and one colleague who crashed a Hawk at Dunsfold due to G loc. ) says the onset of flutter can be extremely rapid, and highly destructive and the only cure in flight is rapid speed reduction and even that is often too late before structural failure occurs.

I often wonder if some of the jet modelling guys who stuff bigger and bigger engines into models and fly them harder and faster really do understand the potential consequences, flutter, structural overload etc., of what they are doing. I very much doubt if this hobby could survive in its present form, if at all, if someone puts a jet model into a crowd, perhaps it would be game over for us all. I passionately and fervently hope that doesn't happen.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

RE: Reno crash
 

did the telemetry data link capture anything beside engine data?

RE: Reno crash
 

This is the best description of what happened in Reno that I've seen so far.
The author teaches aerodynamics at Canoe U, Annapolis. Me mentions Bonanza's
because he owns one and this was posted on a Bonanza chat group site.

Cheers, Ralph


Typically dual trim tabs, or dual actuators, are fitted, as on the Bonanza,
just because failure of a single trim tab at high speed will in fact
cause a "snap" to high Gs. The "solution" for the P-51 is, of course, to
use dual trim tabs as originally fitted.

Why does failure of the trim tab system result in a high G "snap".

If an elevator is not fitted with a trim tab, then the elevator
"free floats" to some angle depending on design conditions.
This is called the elevator free float angle. The elevator free float
angle corresponds to a single airspeed. At any other airspeed a
stick force is required to position the elevator for that airspeed.
This is tiring. Consequently, a trim tab is used to "force trim" the
elevator to the angle required for different speeds.

The elevator free float angle is usually some small value trailing
edge up typically at cruise conditions. For the Bonanza in cruise it is
very close to zero, as it should be.

If you want to fly faster than the speed corresponding to the elevator
free float angle, then you need to trim the elevator trailing edge down
with respect to the free float angle. Still with me?

If the trim tab fails, then the elevator will go to the free float angle.

There are two other parameters that are important. Those are elevator angle
per G and stick force per G.

Elevator angle per G indicates how many Gs will result for a one degree
change in elevator angle. For the Bonanza at cruise it is about one degree
per G

Stick force per G indicates how many pounds of force are required
to move the elevator that one degree to get one G. For the Bonanza at
cruise (165 KTAS) it is about 11 lbs/G.

Now let's turn to the "accident" aircraft. The typical cruise speed quoted
for a stock P-51 is 325 MTAS. To get the estimated 450 KTAS of
the accident aircraft considerable trailing edge down elevator trim
would be required. Furthermore, I suspect that the accident aircraft flew
with an aft CG for more speed and more maneuverability. That increases
the elevator angle per G.

The stick force per G increases as the square of the speed and the
"accident"
aircraft speed was a bit more than twice that of a Bonanza. Let's estimate
five times or 50+ pounds/G.

Let's further speculate that the required elevator angle at 450 KTAS was on
the order of 3-4 degrees trailing edge down.

The trim tab fails, the elevator free floats, i.e. moves trailing
edge up 3-4 deg., the aircraft pitches up in a 6-8G pull up almost
instantly, the stick force moves with a force of 150-200 lbs.
That's enough to break someones hand or arm. Six to eight Gs is enough
to black someone out.

What does this have to do with a Bonanza. Well if you, for whatever
reason, get to the Vne never exceed velocity of 195 KTAS, then you can
exceed
the Bonanza design limit of 4.4Gs with a pull of approximately 40 lbs
and the ultimate limit of 6.6Gs with a pull of approximately
60 lbs. Those forces are well within your strength limits.
So, if you ever get to Vne, be gentle with the aircraft even if
you are looking right at the ground

RE: Reno crash
 

How quickly controlled flight can be lost... (Rc Turbine Jet)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8h6aoPzSpw

Skyhawk....it would be nice to think he tried to turn the aircraft away....but your right...he was gone.

RE: Reno crash
 

Having flown a P-51 for a while, I'd just like to put an end any doubt if "that little trim tab" would cause loss of control of the airplane. The 51 has substantial trim change with speed, and at the speeds seen at Reno, a substantial nose down trim will be required. The stick forces at high speeds are substantial with even small trim wheel changes. Looking at the picture which clearly shows the position of the remaining trim tab segment and the elevator deflection, there is no doubt that extremely high stick forces are produced. Looking at the trajectory of the aircraft and considering the speed, the resulting g-forces were obviously extreme.

RE: Reno crash
 

Flutter anyone? http://youtu.be/iTFZNrTYp3k . Now imaging that when you are going 500.

RE: Reno crash
 

Good example how flutter will distroy an airframe. This one was caused by excessive speed on a weak airframe.

RE: Reno crash
 

New video uploaded yesterday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWxM9H6DXck

RE: Reno crash
 

Sorry but no. There's no way the seat back broke as there is no vector of force in that direction, and the inertial reels attached to the shoulder straps in the cockpit are attached to the bulkhead behind the seat and not the seat itself. The tail wheel was out due to the g-force encountered during the initial failure. There is no separate handle for the tail wheel. Pulling the gear handle would have released all 3 gear, not just 1. There is NO WAY he was conscious and here's why. Jimmy was a model example of a professional race pilot. This was not his 1st mayday situation. There was no mayday call. The engine was running at 105" of manifold pressure at the time of the crash. If Jimmy Leeward was conscious at any time during the final moments of the flight, the FIRST thing he would have done would be to pull the power off the airplane, followed by a mayday call.

People seriously need to stop trying to pretend that Jimmy fought the problem all the way to the ground. It's very romantic, but it just isn't true. At the moment of failure Jimmy was hit with 12+ G's with almost instantaneous onset rate. He was out.

RE: Reno crash
 

Fellas,

Here's a slide from our annual anti-GLOC (G Induced Loss of Concisousness) training:

Sorry for the PDF format, the system handed me mine on this. Rememeber too, that this is for younger fighter pilots...not sure how age would affect it.

I can say from lots of personal experience it's a significant amount of work to stay awake at a sustained 9 G's...and that's with a G-suit. Instantaneous G's are easier due to the reserve, but that's when you're expecting it.

Thoughts and prayers go out to Jimmy's family and all those that were affected by the tragedy.

Dave

RE: Reno crash
 

I believe you have it right.

There are several pictures in air race forums that show the aft fuselage of the Ghost during the race. The aft fuselage clearly denotes a twist right around where the numbers are, noting the tremendous amount of down trim that was being input at the elevator. As you noted, the 51 is famous for an increase in need for down trim as speed increases.

Should the trim tab have let go, all that stored energy in the fuselage twist would have been instantly released, causing a severe pitch up that would have generated a load well exceeding 10 g's. That release of energy and the pitch up could have easily broken the tailwheel locks, extending the tailwheel. Any pilot would have to be extremely lucky to recover from such an event. Even a young and healty pilot would find extreme difficulty in maintaining useful consciousness afetr a sudden and severe 10g pitch up. Survival would depend on what the plane did and how long you had befoe impact to recover useful consciousness and determine what state the plane, and you, were in.

RE: Reno crash
 

Another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsyvM...eature=related

RE: Reno crash
 

It sounds like you are saying the fuselage twists like a spring due to elevator trim and then uncoiled when the trim tab came off, which would be utter nonsense!
H

RE: Reno crash
 

I think he means it simply buckling at the point where the creases in the fuselage can be seen. At lower velocity less trim is required so less force required to balance the main wings desire to head to the heavens. With a rearward CoG more trim is required.

I don't believe TOM is refering to the fuselage coiling up like a spring but we have to remember that a fuselage and a wing are quite elastic within limits. thats how they absorb buffeting

RE: Reno crash
 

I'm not an aero guy at all, though the above explanations sound quite plausible.

And if so, then why not a hor stab/wing incidence angle set up at a better compromise for high speeds when building up a Reno Mustang? As speeds increase, elevator/tabs deflections would tend to decrease and unload rather than as posited w/ the GG. Would require more highly deflected surfaces at low speeds, but w/ aft CGs, I'd think enough up elevator would still be available at landing.

Ray<br type="_moz" />

RE: Reno crash
 

Here's a report with pictures, of an attendee at Reno who was peretty much under the Galloping Ghost as it dove into the box seat area next to him....

http://www.ignomini.com/reno.html

RE: Reno crash
 

God save us all. How quickly this life is, and can be, taken from us.

Be Safe. Be Kind. Share Happiness.

RE: Reno crash
 

NEW VIDEO SHOWS THE WHOLE ACCIDENT.... Ghost starts her final turn at 7:30


Looking at the new video - it's pretty clear that the tailwheel fell out just before the pitch up.

It tells me the trim tab fluttered. As with Voodoo - it fluttered so bad the tailwheel fell out AND it broke the elevator torque tube. Now having split elevators - it rolled - to which he corrected and the trim partially tore away - pitching the airplane up.

You can see the trim tab as the aircraft rolls inverted - it is still trailing untill it finally breaks away after the aircraft is inverted. Of course Jimmy is already out due to the G forces and histroy takes it's place...........


http://vimeo.com/29519344

RE: Reno crash
 

Yikes that sums up the event. Good job to the creator of that video to render it in such a respectful manner.

RE: Reno crash
 

Great link! Thank your for shareing it.

RE: Reno crash
 

haunting video.. Very well done. Thanks for posting.

RE: Reno crash
 

Take a look at 6:57 in turn two. There is a weird pitch up? Accelerated stall? Flutter? Does that look normal to you guys?

RE: Reno crash
 

It was an old airplane though. she may have been rebuilt but it was an origional airframe:
http://www2.leewardairranch.com/raci...g+Ghost&op4=OR

RE: Reno crash
 

Point is?

RE: Reno crash
 

Look @ the video on the other thread, looks like the tail wheel came down first.. Comments?

RE: Reno crash
 

Hell no that don't look normal... Looks like that is where the failure occurred and the airplane tucked and pulled... I would suspect thats when the highest g's were pulled and broke the tailed wheel loose and he went unconscious. The g's continued through the vertical.

Danno

RE: Reno crash
 

Danno, several turns earlier... He is right next to another plane on the inside. The more I look it just looks like a correction but does have a weird pitch up which would loose energy in a race.

In this video....

http://vimeo.com/29519344

Dave

RE: Reno crash
 

Point is that the airframe was vintage and may have had some weak areas that they missed during the rebuild.